England rejig backline
14 Jun 2012
Toby Flood has been preferred at flyhalf for the second Test against the Springboks while coach Stuart Lancaster has made several other changes to his starting backline.
Flood replaces Owen Farrell at No 10 after the Saracens player had an ordinary outing at Kings Park last Saturday. Flood is far more experienced than Farrell and has enjoyed a good halfback partnership with Ben Youngs at Leicester.
‘Owen has had a fantastic season and I am sure he will make a significant impact from the bench,’ said Lancaster. ‘However, Toby has waited patiently for his opportunity and the time is right to allow him the chance to demonstrate his experience and skills in what will be a very tough challenge.’
The injuries to fullback Mike Brown and centre Brad Barritt have forced further changes to the back division. Ben Foden moves to No 15 and David Strettle takes his place on the left wing. Manu Tuilagi shifts to No 12 while Jonathan Joseph comes into the midfield for his first Test start.
‘It’s a shame for Mike Brown who worked hard to get that Test start but Ben Foden naturally reverts to fullback and we return to the wing partnership of David Strettle and Chris Ashton that served us well in the 6 Nations,’ said the England coach.
Meanwhile, Lancaster has kept the starting pack intact. There are changes to the reserve bench, with prop Alex Corbisiero replacing Paul Doran-Jones and Alex Goode coming in to provide backline cover.
England – 15 Ben Foden, 14 Chris Ashton, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Manu Tuilagi, 11 David Strettle, 10 Toby Flood, 9 Ben Youngs, 8 Ben Morgan, 7 Chris Robshaw (c), 6 Tom Johnson, 5 Geoff Parling, 4 Mouritz Botha, 3 Dan Cole, 2 Dylan Hartley, 1 Joe Marler.
Subs: 16 Lee Mears, 17 Alex Corbisiero, 18 Tom Palmer, 19 Phil Dowson, 20 Lee Dickson, 21 Owen Farrell, 22 Alex Goode.
114 Comments
14 Jun 2012, 11:38 am
pom dragons are copying heyneke
14 Jun 2012, 11:38 am
England will look to move it around a bit more probably. Why else would they put in Flood after Farrels flawless kicking display. (hows that for alliteration keoites?)
I think M Steyn will have Tualigi running at him a fair bit as well.
14 Jun 2012, 11:40 am
@John Galt(John Galt)-2: a.la jamie roberts…and we know msteyn was s.hit at defending that channel in that game.
14 Jun 2012, 11:41 am
@John Galt(John Galt)-2: msteyn won’t stand around to be bounced like jdv was on the weekend, he will let tuilagi go.
14 Jun 2012, 11:48 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-3:
Yeah but at least M Steyn has F Steyn next to him this time.
Against Roberts he had Jacobs!
The first test against the Lions, Pienaar played 10 and i remember Roberts wearing Jacobs like a leg warmer. Just dragged him around.
M Steyn did ok on defense on Saturday but will have a whole new problem this time round.
If M Coetzee tracks across in cover and with F Steyn next to him, he’ll be fine.
14 Jun 2012, 11:58 am
Ag Enland have to get the ball first.
They seem pretty clueless …. dropping Farrell for flood seems to be like ‘deer in the headlight’ stuff i.e. panicking. They threw Plan A, Plan B and EVERYTHING including the kitchen sink at the Boks in the first Test and came up short.
They are struggling to to find Plan C ….
They are going to get pumped.
14 Jun 2012, 12:08 pm
It’s a better backline from England. Foden was dangerous and he will have more room from FB. That new centre looked good from his few minutes on the field. Steyn will have to help out Steyn in defence with that monster targetting Morne, creating space on the outside which will need to be shut down quickly by the cover defence; Coetzee will have his hands full covering.
14 Jun 2012, 12:12 pm
Well, Toby’s not gonna last the game… he always ends up “flooding” blood and with a bewildered look on his face… especially when playing the Boks…
Let the big guys run into him at full tilt in the first 10 minutes and you will see what I mean…
14 Jun 2012, 12:26 pm
I think it is a big mistake dropping Farrel. Anyway he will probably get a run on in the second half. Just read that Tuilagi weighs 110kg, very big for a centre!!
The Boks will win, they are looking the more settled, but again it wil be a close win.
14 Jun 2012, 12:33 pm
This is the most exciting backline England have had in years. Farrell is a great kicker for posts, but the rest of his game needs far more development. Mike Brown is a big loss, because David Strettle hasn’t been on form for a while, but everyone else is very attacking minded and the new kid Joseph has great feet and real pace for an outside centre which will blend very nicely with the brutality of Tuilagi.
The real question, which “The Analyst” posed is can England get the ball? There is no kicking game now from England, so this match will be a completely different test to last weeks.
14 Jun 2012, 12:39 pm
Much stronger England team than last week. Boks will still put 20 past them.
14 Jun 2012, 12:40 pm
@race of tan(race of tan)-9: Yeah he is huge. JDV had his hands full last week. F.Steyn will be able to handle Manu.
14 Jun 2012, 12:41 pm
Expect England to go short-side more often on Saturday, and pass the ball just before making contact.
Their intentions were clear immediately after the second half started in Durban.
14 Jun 2012, 12:45 pm
@race of tan(race of tan)-9: @Sasuke(Sasuke)-12: F Steyn is also 110kg and he put a few decent hits on Tuilagi last week – will be a good match-up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Steyn
14 Jun 2012, 12:47 pm
looks a more settled backline too be honest. England know how to stop the boks, they did it very well in the 1st 40, and with this backline they will certainly look to attack the inside channel.
Expect to see a much faster and wider game from England. The boks however, back on the highveld will trust Morne Steyn’s tactical boot. Boks will only use their strike runners in the right areas.
14 Jun 2012, 12:52 pm
Don’t fret about their backline guys. If their forwards can’t do the business their backline becomes irrelevant.
14 Jun 2012, 12:53 pm
@Sasuke(Sasuke)-12: Jdv stood up to the tackle every time, never shying away. To me, that’s all you need to not give Taulagi momentum. If we stop Tualagi from getting over the gainline with one defender it’s job done.
Ps. Did anyone see Fsteyn seek out Tualagi on saturday. He was looking to get the big hit in. I loved it!
14 Jun 2012, 12:56 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-16: but their forwards did just that for a solid 40mins before the boks stepped it up.
14 Jun 2012, 12:57 pm
The England rugby team went to visit an orphanage in Soweto. “The hopelessness in their eyes will haunt me forever.” said Sipho, aged 6.
14 Jun 2012, 12:59 pm
@Dwis(Dwis)-19: C L A S S I C!
14 Jun 2012, 13:04 pm
Mormot Steyn has actually increased his tackling skills a bit. He still doesn’t have that grit needed to be a good defender, but at least he is going in for the tackle these days. I remember him being bounced of tackles with arms waving and squint eyes like a scared school boy.
14 Jun 2012, 13:11 pm
England backline status: rejiggled
14 Jun 2012, 13:15 pm
@logie_Jumpbuck(logie_Jumpbuck)-18: Yup, and that was their chance, and they didn’t use it. They won’t have those chances again this Saturday. They didn’t even have those chances again in the same game once the 2nd half rolled in.
14 Jun 2012, 13:20 pm
I hope the Springbok players are not as over confident as some of their fans on this site,or they may find things are not as easy as they expect.
14 Jun 2012, 13:21 pm
Better backline, still gonna get pumped.
14 Jun 2012, 13:28 pm
@papashanga(papashanga)-24: With you on that one.
The current wave of optimism is reminiscent of the confidence we had prior to the 2nd BIL test (which was also at a higher altitude, mind you).
Complacency is the age old South African enemy.
14 Jun 2012, 13:35 pm
@Dwis(Dwis)-19: Love it
14 Jun 2012, 13:35 pm
da poms gettin jiggy wid it…
14 Jun 2012, 13:38 pm
@willievz(willievz)-26: I’m not sure Willie. I think a lot of us just feel confident that this Bok side has the ability to play better rugby than the English side. Based on our record against these guys at home, last week’s performance, considering everything we had against us in terms of new coaching staff, min prep time etc. I really can’t see how you wouldn’t see the Bok side as favourites?
Skybet’s odds for the game are: South Africa 1/4 and England 3/1. I think that sums it up quite nicely.
14 Jun 2012, 13:45 pm
The England backline should have more pace and power on attack – weaker on defense though! Alberts, F. Steyn and (hopefully!) Spies should love running at Flood’s channel.
I am pleased they did not pick Care, he is much better than the other 2 scrummies.
If Cole get injured, they are in big trouble in the scrum – the other 2 cannot play tighthead.
I wonder how they are going to cope without much less oxygen in Joburg? … especially if the game is tight going into the last 20 min!
14 Jun 2012, 13:49 pm
Looks like both Styen and JdV will have a field day on Saurday, they must be licking their fingers?
14 Jun 2012, 13:51 pm
I personally feel this is a mistake from an England perspective. While Tuilagi might give them some go forward ball running down the 10 channel, that is all he is capable of at 12.
His distribution is horrible and I wouldn’t bet against either de Villiers or Habana adding to their intercept tally from a stray Tuilagi pass. Any backline move by England from first phase ball will be with runners coming from deep behind Tuilagi and skipping him all together and that is ultimately where he is dangerous – out wide! You’d back him in a one on one against most people but he will not be granted that space closer to the action and his distribution will be severely tested. I doubt Joseph will receive the ball directly from Tuilagi much.
That said, it could prove to an exciting backline but with the Boks having a further week together I expect them win fairly comfortably keeping the Poms at arms length. Boks by 10.
14 Jun 2012, 13:53 pm
It seems Lancaster’s realised that Frans Steyn and Jean de Villiers’ midfield defence was too solid for Tuilagi last weekend.
Despite what Alucard claims he saw, de Villiers took on the challenge of neutralising Tuilagi well…
Now they’ve shifted Tuilagi to inside centre in hopes of him being able to rattle through Morne Steyn’s channel…Frans Steyn will need to stand a bit closer to Morne this test. It will also be crucial for Pierre Spies to perform scramble defence from the back of the scrum…
14 Jun 2012, 13:54 pm
@tigereaver(tigereaver)-32:
Inside centers rarely pass the ball nowadays, particularly not on first phase.
They mostly collide with the defense, setting up the second phase.
The “distributing” (often put forward to mean “passing”) inside center is a myth, to some extent at least. Passing and distributing are two very distinct concepts, but that is an entirely different discussion.
14 Jun 2012, 13:56 pm
Even though England specifically put Brown in the side to handle the kicking game from the Boks, they will not miss that aspect of his play now he is injured, since the Hougaard and Steyn were not really able to test them last week.
14 Jun 2012, 13:59 pm
@willievz(willievz)-34:
Too true. Modern rugby has seen inside centres become more of a fourth loose forward.
14 Jun 2012, 13:59 pm
Better looking side IMO… Foden much better with space, Tuilagi running at 12 is much like Nonu and suited to these two teams… tough game it’s going to be…
@spiaro(spiaro)-30:
According to Mouritz Botha’s brother on ruggaworld.com the Poms have been training in altitude masks for several weeks now…
14 Jun 2012, 13:59 pm
@willievz(willievz)-34:
…and in New Zealand rugby the inside centre still manages to offload the ball in contact thereby adding a dangerous dimension to their attacking channel.
14 Jun 2012, 14:02 pm
Amazed we haven’t made changes in the pack!
Danny Care is our best scrum half absolutely shocked he’s not even at least on the bench
Great to see Jonathan Joseph at 13 I expect him to make quite a few line breaks with his fast feet, electric pace
And thank god Owen Farrell has been dropped! He’s been **** for the last 2 months for club and country
Toby Flood is a class player will open the South Africans up more
But I still think we are going to get battered up front
14 Jun 2012, 14:03 pm
@willievz(willievz)-34:
So Tuilagi will be used almost exclusively to attack the gainline to set up second phase ball.
Expect some triangle running from him – at first going diagonally towards Steyn and de Villiers, looking to pass to his outside centre – and then breaking inside towards Morne Steyn’s channel, hoping our guys are “watching the ball” and not the defender.
14 Jun 2012, 14:03 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-5: i didn’t know adi went to the RWC in nz
jamie roberts made msteyn his b.itch in our first group game at the WC. jdv started the game with brussow @ 6, fsteyn took over from jdv but that didnt help msteyn being a revolving door. tuilagi might revive those nightmares.
14 Jun 2012, 14:09 pm
@willievz(willievz)-34:
I disagree wholeheartedly Willie – passing is part of distribution. They are not seperate stand alone entities.
While the modern 12 is a crash ball specialist these days he is also responsible for creating space for those outside him then ‘distributing’ to the person most likely to go through a gap. SBW and F. Steyn are good examples of this. While Steyn didn’t pass much last week we have all seen enough of him at 12 to know he has generally been good at this in the past.
Tuilagi might in actual fact have the reverse effect on the England backline stifling their momentum when a pass to the outside is required. Time will tell.
I still think it’s a bad move.
14 Jun 2012, 14:12 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-41:
On defence Pierre Spies will be vital in scrambling across to support Morne Steyn’s channel, since whichever flanker’s side it is will be looking to put pressure on Flood.
Morne should have Spies on his inside and Frans on his outside on defence.
14 Jun 2012, 14:13 pm
@WP Till I Die(WP-Forever)-43:
Hopefully that will give Morne comfort
14 Jun 2012, 14:18 pm
In saying that I thought our scrum went well Joe Marler 21 year old LH did well in his 1st cap, line out went well and we did ok at the breakdown (Tom Johnson did ok as well)
Ben Morgan should be fitter he could have a massive game at 8, expecting more from Mo Botha and Hartley who usually carries the ball well at hooker
England need to try and spread play wide move it away from the forwards, Owen Farrell’s game management was poor his kicking game was awful
14 Jun 2012, 14:21 pm
Tuilagi and Joseph are both 21 it’s a very young midfield hopefully they do well.
Tuilagi hasn’t played 12 before he was a winger for the Englsnd youth teams Tigers moved him to 13
14 Jun 2012, 14:26 pm
This is also Jonathan Joseph’s 1st cap he wasn’t involved in the six nations
A massive massive step for him playing against the boks I hope he can handle it physically
14 Jun 2012, 14:31 pm
@WP Till I Die(WP-Forever)-43: Don’t forget to send Spies this memo.
14 Jun 2012, 14:39 pm
@tigereaver(tigereaver)-42: @WP Till I Die(WP-Forever)-40:
Tulagi is no Nonu, there is a sea of ball handling skills and positional play between the two or Jaimie Roberts and Jaques Fourie for that matter
personally I believed the Poms would have been better off with Antony Allen or even Mike Tindall.
14 Jun 2012, 14:41 pm
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged by Mad Eye Productions.(The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food)-48:
I see you roped in a world-class international producer to assist with the packaging
14 Jun 2012, 14:43 pm
Tuilagi is 21 he’s more than a badger he’s got lovely hands, decent step and he scores fries (He was a winger)
He’s still a baby he will get better and better he’s not the finished article
14 Jun 2012, 14:49 pm
@john123(john123)-51: I doubt he will be better. There appears to be this perception that just because someone is young they will become twice as good in a few years or so. That rarely ever happens. How many players have honestly gone on to be great players only later in their career? I can only think of front rowers to be honest. Tuilagi is just a battering ram, an average Samoan at best. He got the better of a substandard Jean, but there are far better opposites he will face and he will require more than what he has. He will essentially settle into what he is at present. Virtually all players do that.
14 Jun 2012, 14:51 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-3: Actually, it was Butch at 12 that buckled the Boks in that game. Not Morné. And besides, Jean is the one Manu will target again. It’s our biggest backline weakness. Once they break through they have a turnstile in Lambie as our last defence. It could be another tough day for JP, but thankfully he has always been up to the task of cover defence.
14 Jun 2012, 14:52 pm
Tuilagi is more than a battering ram this is the first time he’s played in the SH
Of course players improve ie decision making, skill set, strength/physique it all improves
14 Jun 2012, 14:54 pm
@NicG(NicG)-14: Frans is 100kg. Besides, weight is not = to strength or power. Frans is just a more powerful person than Manu irrespective of weight.
14 Jun 2012, 14:54 pm
@WP Till I Die(WP-Forever)-50: Well, by his own heralding and the full length commercial he posted here (500 trumpets were used in the making of that specific commercial and all trumpet action was monitored by the American Humane Society – No trumpets were harmed in the making of that specific commercial, although Mad Eye tried bloody hard) he is a world class producer, and involved with sharketing in a big way at the pilchard tin. It made business sense to rope the old ******* e r in.
14 Jun 2012, 14:58 pm
@WP Till I Die(WP-Forever)-33: I was one hundred percent correct. Do you want the times?
05:08 – Manu attacks the outside shoulder of Jean, he proceeds to hand-off Jean and get behind him. Jean attacks the feet of Manu from behind to bring him down. Frans immediately contests the ball, but two Englishmen well on hand to recycle quickly.
28:05 – Jean shoulder charges Manu’s face sending him to the ground. (Jean the ball carrier).
43:43 – Manu knocks Jean over with a powerful run but trips over the would-be defender in the process, still gets behind him.
71:15 – Manu runs, stops and thumps Jean backwards, Frans moves out and thumps Manu to ground.
There you have it, this was the extent of the encounter. I recommend you get your head out of your backside, but that’s how the WP folk like it. Enjoy your blissful ignorance.
14 Jun 2012, 15:00 pm
Manu Tuilagi is more powerful than Francois Steyn
Tuilagi can bench press as much as Andrew Sheridan who was a pro power lifter
14 Jun 2012, 15:02 pm
@john123(john123)-58: Well, Frans smashed Manu every chance he got. Frans smashed everything he got his hands onto and carried multiple opponents nearly half the length of the opposition half at times. I cant think of many players who can do that, forwards or backs! Manu only bested Jean because he is a pap myth.
14 Jun 2012, 15:03 pm
Did you not see Tuilagi’s monster tackle on Willem Alberts in the 1st half to stop a try? He’s an animal very rarely do you see 21 year olds as powerful as him hes only 6 ft as well
14 Jun 2012, 15:05 pm
@john123(john123)-60: Nobody monster tackled Alberts. He was merely brought down after some seriously hard graft. Alberts trampled everything before him. Literally running over several Englishman.
14 Jun 2012, 15:14 pm
I am flabergasted by the tone of comments on this site.
Backline players are always first judged first by their defensive ability or the lack thereof. Secondly the question is asked whether or not they will be able to cross the advantage line. Very little focus is placed on their distribution skills or speed off the mark, for instance.
Frans Steyn being a case in point. He seemingly is tackled after having made two or three yards over the advantage line. The poor pricks who sing his praises for doing this do not see that, had he rather passed, the blokes on his outside would have made 20 yards across the advantage line. Once again, statistics are misleading. Statistics will tell you that Pierre Spies made 200 tackle assists or hit 500 rucks in the game, but it does not tell you that his input had zero effect on the game. It does not show that he tackles with his hands first like a the smallest little bugger in the under 9 team. It does not show that he deliberately waits for someone else to tackle the ball carrier before he gets involved. It does not tell you that most of the rucks that he joins has the ball already secured on the opposition’s side. He only hits those rucks because he knows it will make his stats look good.
14 Jun 2012, 15:15 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-53: jamie roberts ran through morne like freight train. morne must defend his channel, the blame can’t be shifted to butch…
sbw also ran through morne like a swift wind when the saders demolished the bulls 27 – 0, i guess you’re going to say it was wynand’s fault even then.
14 Jun 2012, 15:15 pm
@tigereaver(tigereaver)-42:
You’re right. Passing is part of distribution, but it does not mean the same thing.
Let me put it this way – all rugby players at international level can (or should be able to!!) pass a ball. But not all players are good distributors.
A good distributor is necessarily a carrier that makes good decisions, and decides if and when to get rid of the ball.
14 Jun 2012, 15:16 pm
He lifted him up at speed ok it wasn’t a monster tackle but still a 21 year old lifting a bloke of Alberts size showed incredible strength
He would have trampled over Frans Steyn at 21
14 Jun 2012, 15:17 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-57:
What is the point you are trying to make Alucard? That de Villiers stopped him everytime!? It may not have been pretty but it was effective.
I remember reading an article with Deon Kayser back in the day and they were asking him how he planned to bring down his massive opponent (not sure who it was exactly) but he said, “I will put my body on the line, it may not be pretty but long as I get in amongst the wheels and he comes down that’s all that matters.
de Villiers is credited with missing one tackle and Tuilagi made and extra 2 metres on that occasion. I think you need to back the boks instead of constantly looking for fault.
Seriously fickle fans! It’s like you have nothing better to do than complain and be negative. Do you need a hug?
14 Jun 2012, 15:20 pm
@Couchcoach(GI POT)-62: The primary job of 12 is to get over the advantage line and set up the next phrase. I suppose that you were blinking conveniently each time Frans made massive ground with his powerful carries. Or maybe when he made those three slick offloads – something he always does well. Or his lengthy passes. Choose to be ignorant, but it only reflects your complete lack of understanding of the game. Perhaps you would like the Boks to play traditional Welsh shuffle ball? Flinging in side to side without gaining an inch? You need to go forward, you need your 12 to penetrate the gainline. You first go forward, suck in defenders and then, maybe, take it wide. Even then you only have about four phases before the defence strengthens. Whilst not going forward? The defence always is on top.
Your take on Spies is clueless as well. He very often is the first to arrive for a tackle. His breakdown work is no worse than most.
14 Jun 2012, 15:23 pm
De Villiers’ future is at 13, for both SA and the Stormers/WP.
14 Jun 2012, 15:25 pm
@tigereaver(tigereaver)-66: My point is that through smashing Jean England were able to pile in and behind our defence. That may not be of any concern to you, but to anyone that wants to not be beaten, it is something very grave. You cannot afford to have a defender that gets smashed backwards and allows attackers to literally invade his channel. It’s so bad that JP had to fly in off his wing to cover. So to Frans. It’s so much of a burden that defenders are being pulled out of position just to rectify Jean’s weak defending. Now do you get the point? Had we played a side with better offloading in contact and support running we WOULD have lost this test on the basis of that weakness alone. It’s not enough to grapple people’s feet in a desperate attempt to stop someone. Is that how low our standards are for South Africa rugby? Or is it how far people will go to defend a player? Either way, very, very sad.
14 Jun 2012, 15:26 pm
@willievz(willievz)-64:
Hence we cannot comment on whether or not Frans Steyn is a good or bad distributor because he never passes the *&#$%ing ball!!!!
14 Jun 2012, 15:26 pm
@willievz(willievz)-64:
Willie, finally we are in agreement! Passing is about the action whereas distribution is about the thought process and knowing who is best placed to receive the pass and make the most of it.
So the point I was making is that Tuilagi is a terrible distributor. Do you disagree? He started out as a wing and rarely does a wing make a good 12. There are numerous cases of wings being moved to 13 very successfully but 12 is a different ball game all together. If anyone points to de Villiers as an example I would point to the fact that he was a 12 who was shifted to the wing to get him into the team.
There are going to be occasions where your 10 is tied up and the 12 is forced to step in. This can only be good for the boks. Flood tied up so Tuilagi steps in at 10, there are 2 options – crash ball or intercept try. The Poms best option was to look for a 12 with a bit of creativity to create space for Tuilagi at 13.
That’s the way I see it. Happy to hear what you think.
14 Jun 2012, 15:27 pm
@willievz(willievz)-68: That’s a very bleak future. Though, there is no chance of Jean displacing de Jongh who is quite honestly twice the outside centre Jean is. If only Fourie was still available. The sooner Jean disappears from the scene the better for South African rugby.
14 Jun 2012, 15:27 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-67:
Are you Ian Mac? So you f%^&$ed up backline play in SA!!!!!! You old so-and-so
14 Jun 2012, 15:27 pm
@willievz(willievz)-68:
Agree. He should have been moved a long time ago. Was his best game in a bok jersey for a long time.
14 Jun 2012, 15:29 pm
@tigereaver(tigereaver)-71: You are onto something. Jean is really a wing, and his distribution has always been awful. One of the worst tragedies is that Jean was moved to 12. It dragged both the Boks and WP down. Not many wings have made good 13s though. The vast majority have failed. Wings are wings, centres are centres, all these failures prove that the two are not interchangeable.
14 Jun 2012, 15:29 pm
@willievz(willievz)-68:
Ons sê mos al vir maande WP moet vir Juan de Jongh op 12 en vir Jean de Villiers op 13 gebruik.
14 Jun 2012, 15:29 pm
@tigereaver(tigereaver)-71:
Tuilagi is the class of 12 that Alucard – the *** Dracula – drools over. Bonehead, braindead mastodons who would not be able to utilize a overlap or a gap in a backline if their lives depended on it.
14 Jun 2012, 15:31 pm
@john123(john123)-60: why do Brits always bring out gym stats like they actually mean something
14 Jun 2012, 15:31 pm
@willievz(willievz)-68:
I’m beginning to think Heyneke Meyer needs to contract Barrie Geel as a specialist “backline mental coach”.
14 Jun 2012, 15:32 pm
@fantasticbarnsmell(fantasticbarnsmell)-78:
You mean like Blue Bull fans when they discuss Pierre Spies?
14 Jun 2012, 15:33 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-69: 4 examples in 80 minutes, and the man brought down in all 4. Face it, Jean was damn good at 13. Even the English commentators admitted it. Take off your Blue glasses and face reality.
14 Jun 2012, 15:34 pm
@WP Till I Die(WP-Forever)-80: haha, exactly… and we all know how that one ends..
14 Jun 2012, 15:34 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-69:
I’m sorry chap but you are off the mark. It was de Villiers first outing in the 13 jersey in about 10 years. He will only get better, learning the angles to defend and how to position himself.
Excatly how many threatening moves came from Tuilagi’s supposed bust through de Villiers? If you took note of the fact that on at least 2 of the occasions you mentioned earlier, the bok backline had come up very quickly and even with Tuilagi’s 3 extra metres they still hadn’t crossed the gain line.
A huge part of defence is how you deal with someone getting through/past the defensive line. Of course you need to be able to trust the players either side of you but Tuilagi is one dimensional and poses no threat other than attempting to run over people.
14 Jun 2012, 15:35 pm
@fantasticbarnsmell(fantasticbarnsmell)-78: lol Pierre Spies
Just cant believe the amount of people writing off Tuilagi as this one dimensional player
He really isnt hes got more skills than bashing into someone
Like I said hes 21 he will improve his game in terms of decision making, kicking etc he wil become a more all round player
14 Jun 2012, 15:36 pm
@Couchcoach(GI POT)-70:
Well, then you disagree with Heyneke Meyer, who states that his 13 is the decision maker and distributor in his backline, who gets the quick ball from the second phase after no.12 has carried it up in first phase.
Rather than get all uptight about it, just say that you and Heyneke have different views of how the game should be played.
14 Jun 2012, 15:38 pm
A lot of Xperts here on backline play
X – is an unknown quantity
pert – a lot of hot gas under pressure
Xperts indeed
14 Jun 2012, 15:38 pm
@john123(john123)-58: Pierre Spies can bench press half of the population of Pretoria dude (with their crocs on!), yet he still can’t tackle for sh y te and is easier to bring down than some African, Middle Eastern, or East European dictator. 95% of a Man’s strength is in his head. Only 5% is gym stats.
14 Jun 2012, 15:38 pm
Jamie Roberts is a one a dimensional player all he does is run in a straight line and because hes 6ft 5 he can offload the ball in the tackle
BTW Toby Flood isnt a small man hes a decent tackler I havent seen him miss many tackles
SA will target Jonathan Joseph at 13
14 Jun 2012, 15:40 pm
@john123(john123)-84: it’s common knowledge that people who do this comparison with Pierre Spies are idiots, if you’re happy to be in that company then by all means do.
14 Jun 2012, 15:40 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-67: “The primary job of 12 is to get over the advantage line and set up the next phrase.”
Yes, to an extent. Certainly if an offense stands flat.
It depends on how the team want to play the first phase, the alignment of the offense and how the defense reacts to the recycle from the set piece.
For example, sometimes a skip pass from the 10 to the 13 is delivered, with the 12 shooting up and acting as a dummy runner. Then the 12 becomes a support player at a ruck/maul situation. The All Blacks do this very often – look how often Conrad Smith receives a skip from Carter and bring Nonu in play in this fashion.
The Boks played far too deep for a 12 to effectively penetrate the defensive line. This is where the Morne/JDV combo failed IMO. But with Steyn there, he has the distribution skills to operate (ie pass or kick) from a slightly deeper position as well as the strength to dominate his opposite number should he decide to get physical.
But this is the crux – dominating your opposite number in the tackle does not mean you will dominate the contact point.
If you attack from too deep, the defensive support players will stifle your momentum. Remember that if you attack from slightly deeper, your own support runners will have to run slightly more backwards in support.
Actually, W.Olivier is a prime example in this regard. He is good enough at S15 level to attack the gain line and cross the advantage line from slightly deep, but fails to do this at international level because defenses are just too good for him. It is not his fault per se, just that his alignment is too deep for support to adequately assist him.
F.Steyn, while more physical in contact, will suffer this problem too if the backline alignment is too deep. In fact, did we or did we not dominate the collisions in the first half on Saturday?
14 Jun 2012, 15:40 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-85: Are you Mr Meyer’s gatekeeper? I don’t think I have been around here long enough to know what your affiliation to the man is? Older brother?
You seem terribly protective mama bear.
14 Jun 2012, 15:43 pm
@willievz(willievz)-90:
But Heyneke’s game involves a flat backline from first phase and a deeper backline from quick second phase ball. Hence, Frans takes the ball flat and gets over the advantage line with his strength.
14 Jun 2012, 15:44 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-85:
I disagree with Heyneke on many things. It is, however, nothing that is aimed at him alone. He is just following a global trend.
I am bemoaning the lack of creativity in rugby in general – especially backline play in SA.
One thing that I do give Heyneke credit for is the fact that he tweaked the game plan on Saturday. The Boks played off M Steyn after halftime and Hougaard just became a link instead of being the one who decides what to do with the ball. Morne suddenly looked like a world-class flyhalf. So I guess there is hope…
14 Jun 2012, 15:44 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-75:
Really?? No wings have been converted to 13 and done well…..
Umaga, Adam Ashley-Cooper.
I’m sure there are a lot more.
14 Jun 2012, 15:44 pm
@tigereaver(tigereaver)-71: Yes, Tuilagi should not trouble a defensive line in close channels (which has more support).
Too predictable and not enough space.
@Alucard(Alucard)-72: De Jongh has the feet and speed needed at 12 to ensure a smooth second phase for his team.
@WP Till I Die(WP-Forever)-79: LOL! For a calming influence
Of die ander Dagbreker 
14 Jun 2012, 15:51 pm
@fantasticbarnsmell(fantasticbarnsmell)-89:
If calling Spies useless makes me an idiot, then an idiot I am – gladly
14 Jun 2012, 15:51 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-92: Yep, but we were still too deep in the first half.
Second half our alignment was flatter.
14 Jun 2012, 15:52 pm
So much anger amongst bloggers.
Relax, people. Bok rugby is at the dawn of its greatest era.
14 Jun 2012, 15:53 pm
@Couchcoach(GI POT)-96: no no no, i was saying people who used the logic “Pierre Spies good at gym = good at rugby”, were idiots… so you are clearly not in this category.
14 Jun 2012, 15:54 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-98: We are not angry, we are just passionate.
Passionate Bok supporters.
Similar to you being a passionate Bulls supporter.
You should know the feeling?
14 Jun 2012, 15:54 pm
@willievz(willievz)-97:
All of which is largely irrelevant if we don’t get front foot ball thanks to our forwards.
Hence, it is incorrect to attribute our attacking woes in the first half to the alignment of the backline.
Look to the forward dominance or lack thereof for the culprit.
14 Jun 2012, 15:55 pm
@fantasticbarnsmell(fantasticbarnsmell)-99:
OK – thank you for your vote of confidence and for obviously recognizing my considerable rugby knowledge and genius
14 Jun 2012, 15:56 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-98: i want to believe
14 Jun 2012, 15:56 pm
@Couchcoach(GI POT)-93: Look at Nonu.
A prime example of how to utilise a crash-ball 12 as a good distributor.
Nonu’s decision-making is in a different league.
14 Jun 2012, 15:58 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-101: Granted, Tac.
But even with front foot ball you can stuff it up by standing too deep.
I thought we had decent front foot ball in the first 20 minutes but took our time to recycle.
14 Jun 2012, 15:59 pm
@willievz(willievz)-34: It’s really strange, because it seems the AB’s choose the set phases as their best chance of attack. While the defense is structured, the rely on their running lines to create opportunities.
14 Jun 2012, 16:07 pm
@willievz(willievz)-95:
I agree de Jongh is a 12 but still think he needs to work on his passing game. By passing more he would keep the defence guessing. At the moment they know he very rarely passes meaning all the dummies in the world are not going to get you through the gap whereas when there is the threat that you may pass defenders take this threat a little more seriously.
14 Jun 2012, 16:23 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-41:
Oh that game.
Yeah look, M Steyn is going to have to up his defensive game any which way you cut it.
14 Jun 2012, 16:24 pm
@tigereaver(tigereaver)-66:
No. He is just mad. Barking mad.
14 Jun 2012, 17:08 pm
@tigereaver(tigereaver)-107:
I’ve heard a lot of arguments against the idea of De Jongh at 12 on the basis that “he does not pass”.
I am not sure if this is just criticism. I agree that he needs to work on that skill, certainly, but he does not necessarily pass less than the other centers domestically.
However, he can step off both feet which means he can attack the outside shoulder of the immediate defender in front of him successfully, most of the time.
This forms the basis for quick ruck ball on the second phase.
14 Jun 2012, 17:11 pm
@pompies2(pompies2)-106:
They know they need to dominate the first phase, and are very, very good at it – partly because they make the right decisions.
Funny how they have so often been successful at dominating the collisions on first phase rather than necessarily dominating the set piece – I’d like to get your views on this.
This is a very interesting topic and something worth investigating. Their set pieces early in the game are very vulnerable, but as the game progress and they dominate the collisions due to the tiring opposition, they tend to dominate the set pieces.
14 Jun 2012, 17:32 pm
@willievz(willievz)-111:
I think your statement below encapsulates most of it.
“They know they need to dominate the first phase, and are very, very good at it – partly because they make the right decisions.”
The seem to appreciate the power of the player in possession is. What they then do is create multiple options for the ballcarrier, not allowing the defensive players to fully commit to a contact situation. Because of that indecisive action by the defenders, they can dominate the contact point, shift the ball before contact, or shift the ball in contact. Obviously there the foundational principles of good supporting lines, good soft skills and the reaction of the player to the visual stimuli on the field.
Essentially the principles around coaching involve. Teach, understand, learn, practice, recognize and execute.
Also helps that there’s some sort of national playing identity. There’s no major effort to homogenize 5 or 6 playing styles.
14 Jun 2012, 19:25 pm
First test ever watched.British Lions vs SA newlands 1955.
Have kept up with changes to the game ever since and watched/listened/read
about every game since.
But my,have learned so much tonight.
14 Jun 2012, 19:49 pm
Go H.M.
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