Meyer laments breakdown efforts, discipline
26 Aug 2012
Springbok head coach Heyneke Meyer says his players let themselves and the nation down with their disappointing performance against Argentina in Mendoza.
While the Boks (who trailed most of the match) avoided a first-ever defeat to Argentina as they forced a 16-16 stalemate, Meyer pulled no punches in his view on his team’s display.
South Africa trailed 13-3 at half time, and broke down the deficit in the second half thanks to Frans Steyn’s charge-down try and Morne Steyn’s boot, who added the conversion and a penalty in the final 40. Meyer pointed to Argentina’s strong approach to the breakdown battle and the Boks’ poor discipline for the near loss.
‘Firstly, all credit to Argentina. We were not good enough and they played very well, but we let our country and ourselves down tonight,’ said Meyer. ‘Our problems started at the breakdown, where we could not get any quick ball and when we did at stages, I thought we played good rugby only to lose the ball in good positions on the field.
‘We have a lot of inexperience and youngsters, but it’s not an excuse. For a lot of these guys it was their first Test away from home, but we talk a lot about mental toughness and we needed to make the step up.
‘We always knew they were going to come out hard at us and that it was going to be very tough, but you can’t afford to give away all those penalties we did early in the game. That was unacceptable.’
Skipper Jean de Villiers also expressed his frustration as there were numerous disruptions caused by the Pumas’ high penalty count.
‘Every time we got in their half, they gave away a penalty. We didn’t get a lot of ball out wide but when we did we made some metres. However, it was one of those games where we never got into it and it ended in a draw.’
65 Comments
26 Aug 2012, 11:04 am
“I thought we played good rugby only to lose the ball in good positions on the field”
Lies! They didn’t play any good rugby. Constantly kicking the ball away is not good rugby.
Every time we got in their half, they gave away a penalty
And you made what from it?
Jean also needs to take a lot of the flak. Launching an up-and-under from a kickable penalty is just pathetic.
How I long for Smittie.
26 Aug 2012, 11:07 am
Does Bekker do any ruck work or does he just hang out on the wing waiting for glory boy runs. Drop him and bring in Kruger asap and that bonehead Potgieter must be dropped pronto.
Never ever play Alberts at 8th man again Heineken and drop those useless planks you call forwards.
26 Aug 2012, 11:14 am
Add Brussouw for Potgieter, Kruger for Bekker, a hooker that actually hits rucks for Strauss (who is so ****) and things will start going better.
26 Aug 2012, 11:18 am
@RL-2: He definitely learnt his trade from Matfield.
26 Aug 2012, 11:19 am
@hendrikp-1: Must say i found that totally stupid, a kickable penalty in test rugby as are behind and we opt for a lineout
Surely you take the points
26 Aug 2012, 11:20 am
After the previous game in SA wherein the Boks were appallingly poor, this very fortunate, and indeed underserved draw in Argentina is a very clear reflection that Heineke Meyer is completely off-the-ball (out of touch?) in terms of both game strategy AND team selection. There is absolutely NO creative thinking on the park at all. Just mindless repetition of a tried and tested (and found to be wanting) game plan, as played by the Bulls in years long gone.
There was an interesting article on ESPN Cricinfo concerning the change in fortunes of the SA Cricket side entitled.
“South Africa’s new mindset brings rewards”
I quote from that:
“To get there, they needed a different perspective. South African sport was, and in some places still is, conducted like the army in its rigidity and focus to discipline. It was not a space to be creative. It was not a space to introduce too many outrageous ideas. It was not a space to express. It was a space to do as you had been taught because that was the way that would breed success. If they failed, and there were times when they did, it was never the method that was at fault, only the way they were executing it.”
The Boks and Meyer in particular desperately needs that sort of new-thinking and creativity. Meyer used to be able to be capable of innovative, even daring thinking before and even during his reign at the Bulls – but came a cropper in the UK with Leicester (ostensibly due to “family reasons”). That begs the question: has Heineke lost his nerve and now lacks the courage and self belief to dare think outside the box? And thus he selects players that he feels will deliver his overly- conservative approach and not expose him to any form of ridicule for trying something new?
If so SA will continue to be embarrassed, and indeed humiliated at the unbelievably average performance of the Boks.
At least the Wallabies had a very solid and promising first 30 minutes against New Zealand – who are a much, much better team than Argentina (courageous and smart thought he latter may be). SA has not had so much as a promising THREE minutes in two matches against the Argentines.
26 Aug 2012, 11:21 am
@hendrikp-1: It was funny how the TOO SMALL Daniel made too turnovers yesterday when holding the ball up in mauls
26 Aug 2012, 11:23 am
@sharks_lover-7: too =two
26 Aug 2012, 11:23 am
@sharks_lover-7: I said the same thing. !
26 Aug 2012, 11:26 am
Coetzee and Potgieter,once again,got exposed at the breakdown.If you move your so-called top scrummie after 60 minutes,every game,then it’s about time to realise that he doesn’t deserve a starting spot.Steyn??….I’ll just leave it at
26 Aug 2012, 11:30 am
Meyer has:
The wrong game plan
The wrong team
No creativity
No flair
No slick passing
No Plan B
No fetcher
Apart from that, everything is hunky-dory.
The current game plan is to use huge, ponderous forwards, who crash ball and all into opponents. Then we get it back sloooowly, and kick it high, hoping against hope to win it back with slow chasers who can’t catch an opponent or the ball. And if we do catch the opponents – usually after they have run 30 metres – we don’t have a fetcher to steal the ball. There is no quick passing either, and if we do create an overlap, we cancel it out by either throwing a skip pass, or trying to break back towards the traffic.
I wouldn’t be so bothered by the lack of a fetcher if the Wallabies and All Blacks were not captained by fetchers! They are regarded as the most important players on the field, because they create turnovers and slow opposition ball down. The Springboks have lost more balls (literally) this year than ever before. Lineouts? Shambles. Scrums? Eish. Rucks and mauls? Double eish. Creativity? There isn’t a word for it yet. Not one that should be said in public, that is.
So. If we can only fix these few problems , the Springboks will be OK.
26 Aug 2012, 11:30 am
@sparticus-9: Great minds think alike
Mate its not so much the players though, the Coach had a plan i agree, but when it was’nt working why no change?? he made the same changes as the week before.
Lambie stayed unused, Pienaar on and Hougaard to wing, Lock on and so replacements came on with the same objective as the week before.
Where i think he is wrong is in not changing the game plan on the field of play
I would have brough Lambie on and actually left Hougaard at 9 who yesteday was not playing badly, yes ask him not to kick the ball away and had the back line playing a little flatter, keep ball inhand approach.
But no it was all kept the same…
26 Aug 2012, 11:33 am
Meyer is a good coach, he just needs to revisit his own way of thinking, believe in his players and their abillities, and allow them to express themselves on the field of play.
We play too much like robots
26 Aug 2012, 11:40 am
@sharks_lover-13: You are contradicting yourself mantieman.
Meyer was a good coach at the Bulls BECAUSE he had them playing like robots, and living under his iron clad thumb. Homogenous culture, thinking, style of play and players personalities.
It’s a little different in the cultural melting pot that is big leagues…..
So the bit that makes you say you LIKE Meyer as a coach, is also the bit that in the next sentence you lament.
26 Aug 2012, 11:42 am
Coetzee and Alberts cost the Boks yesterday.Absolute shocking display at the breakdown.Their ball-carrying abilities were nullified by the Argentines which further highlighted their poor display.Potgieter,once again,only used the test match to practise his flying tackles.I think it’s time for Cilliers to replace Jannie Dup on a permanent basis.
26 Aug 2012, 12:36 pm
@wnbb-15: I can tell from your post that you are a WP fan?
26 Aug 2012, 12:57 pm
I thought we also played some pretty decent pattern in the 2nd half….only to lose the ball often illegally.
Definately one or more of the argies should have gone to the bin
26 Aug 2012, 13:09 pm
Meyer shouldn’t blame his players, he picked them and gave them the gameplan.
26 Aug 2012, 13:17 pm
With the current ‘semi-impotence’ of the Bok loosies, why is Brussouw not in the team??? He and BdP are surely the best turn-over exponents in the Bok ranks, and Brussouw is one of the best at being a ‘nuisance’ in slowing down opposition ball. I’m not a Bok supporter, and I grin every time I see a Bok team without Brussouw in it. I find the whole SA attitude to ‘fetchers’ very strange.
26 Aug 2012, 13:50 pm
Brussouw is not even in the Cheeters team.
With an injury that should be expected anyway.
26 Aug 2012, 14:02 pm
who stops the opposition fetcher from fetching?
26 Aug 2012, 14:03 pm
do you fetch your own ball?
26 Aug 2012, 14:04 pm
or do you just slow and steal opposition ball?
can anyone with some rugby knowledge please answer these questions cause im baffled
26 Aug 2012, 14:06 pm
if you have 70% of the possession and the fetchers job is to slow opposition ball do u need him
26 Aug 2012, 14:06 pm
@saru1983-21: salient point, all the talk of the fetcher ignores that SA are losing their own ball due to inefficient clearing out
26 Aug 2012, 14:07 pm
Meyer came out with this tough “not good enough” talk after the PE match, and lo and behold nothing was learnt and nothing changed. I expect this trend to continue onwards….
26 Aug 2012, 14:09 pm
@Big Hit-25: quality fetchers don’t only disrupt the opposition but also secure their own ball effectively. i don’t know why this point keeps coming up, it’s not the the fetchers just go off the field and have a cup of tea on attack
26 Aug 2012, 14:10 pm
Ok players 2 fogoff…
Kirchner, msteyn,bekker,jannie,mvovo(sorry to say but in two tests he did fogol)
My fogin final m22 is
15-fsteyn( lambie)
14-a ndugane
13-jj engelbrecht
12-j de villiers
11-b habana
10-p lambie( goosen when fully matchfit)
9-f hougaard
8-d vermeulen( u can say what u want but I’d prefer spies)
7-w alberts( s burger to take over when fit)
6-s kolisi( h brussow when fit)
5-j kruger
4-e etzebeth
3- p cilliers (oosthuizen when fit)
2-a strauss( chilli when fit)
1-b mtawarira(need to up his game)
16-t liebenberg
17-d greyling
18-bekker( need to redeem himself)
19-m coetzee
20-r pienaar(p van zyl when fit)
21-jantjies/goosen
22-g aplon
Please heineke read my blog
26 Aug 2012, 14:21 pm
@xtremebull-28:
Personally wouldn’t mind seeing Jaco Taute at centre when he’s fit.
And yes, a few heads need to roll after that performance. Think you’re on the right track.
Wondering how Gurthro Steenkamp is going. He was our best loosehead for a long time. Should be in his prime right now. Might be a better bet then the Beast.
Also think Ruan Pienaar should be our starting 9 alongside Goosen.
26 Aug 2012, 14:26 pm
@fantasticbarnsmell-27: it takes more than one player to secure ball, SA were getting counter-rucked by big Argie forwards off their own ball, what’s a fetcher going to do about that? it’s not some magical cure to the ills of a forward pack.
26 Aug 2012, 14:27 pm
@fantasticbarnsmell-27: and how do they secure their own ball?
26 Aug 2012, 14:33 pm
@saru1983-31: Watch Ritchie and you will see. Besides whatever anyone says about his infringements he has to be at the breakdown to cause and that is what he does.
26 Aug 2012, 14:35 pm
you have one fetcher in the team usually, so how does a fetcher prevent the opposition from stealing the ball.Not even Mcaw does this he steals many balls and slows them down this is his primary job not securing balls at the breakdown which his team has already won by other forwards hitting and cleaninig the rucks.
On their own ball he effectively becomes a ball carrier which he is amazingly good at.fetchers dont compete gainst each other as they r doing completely different jobs depending on who has the ball
26 Aug 2012, 14:37 pm
anyhow my point is if you have 70% of the ball its your tight fowards that secure it and lay a platform for your scrummie not the fetcher.and SA problems have come not from slowing opposition ball but rather from a lack of securing their own ball
26 Aug 2012, 14:39 pm
I still believe they do need a fetcher though.
26 Aug 2012, 15:02 pm
Ab’s play a momentum based gameplan too . The difference is their forwards attack the space to draw in defenders instead of just trying to run over them. Pop passes transfers the momentum to other players (forwards) where the should be so if it goes to ground they are ready to clean out . Slow ball they move it up again to create faster ball and fast ball goes to the backs where with smart creative play they create space for them to look good. In Sa fast ball gets shifted wide and slow ball gets kicked either kickchase/box kick. If no one competes it’s wasted and if we compete it’s 50/50. If we get the ball suddenly there are space for our backs to look better. We really need to think about our plan and I think a role of a fetcher should run trough the whole team but there should be a specialist. We need a flyhalf to take charge not having props on flyhalf and locks on the wings. The way the ab;s adapt and use to walk over a ball to secure was always part of their plan maybe we should look at that too.
26 Aug 2012, 15:07 pm
Also our game plan is too layer focused if a bissie gets injured the wheels seems to come off. Play to players strengths , but don’t base the game plan on them
26 Aug 2012, 15:15 pm
meyer thinks we are daft…he make an excuse & says it is not an excuse.
‘We have a lot of inexperience and youngsters, but it’s not an excuse.
For a lot of these guys it was their first Test away from home, but we talk a lot about mental toughness and we needed to make the step up.”
the EXCUSE of inexperience doesn’t wash against ARGENTINA
26 Aug 2012, 15:45 pm
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-14: I rest my case, again you show exactly why you come on here as well as you ignorance,
26 Aug 2012, 15:46 pm
@Transformation-38:
Like after the 3rd test against England he said something along the lines:
“‘We have a lot of inexperience and youngsters, but it’s not an excuse.
For a lot of these guys it was their first Test away in conditions like this.”
26 Aug 2012, 15:59 pm
@nama1-40:
“…first test IN CONDITIONS like this”
26 Aug 2012, 16:10 pm
The coach said they talked about mental toughness and needed the step up.
Maybe Meyer and the Boks should go to Switzerland with Mike Horn!
26 Aug 2012, 16:38 pm
The talk is always about this player or that player. I would expect a Bok team made up of any of the top three SA players in each position to have a pretty good chance against a team that is 8th on the IRB rankings. Picking the best players is important but it is not the issue.
One perennial issue with the Boks, and it is not uncommon elsewhere in rugby, is that you can’t cruise to a win against any of the top teams. My assertion is that the Boks were treating the match as a training game, with a presumption of victory. A passionate, committed team with something to prove vs a bunch of guys with a presumption of superiority can deliver an upset. You cannot take your foot off the gas, and if the Boks were thinking about Oz/NZ rather than taking this one seriously they have got what was coming to them.
Beyond the overconfidence issue the Boks were disorganized at the breakdown. It is not that they weren’t focused on the breakdown, but the Pumas were managing their ball retention and turnover opportunities in a much more structured way. Do the guys have coordinated roles at the breakdown?
Lineouts: No excuses. We have plenty of tall jumpers, an S15 partnership between #2 and #5, Matfield as an advisor, and a tradition of being the best at this area of play. No excuses.
On attack …
… the pattern was that our runners were getting the ball and the tackler at the same time. That means one thing: Predictable passes. Our #9 was consistently picking runners that were already lined up by an aggressive rush defence. There is talk about how quick our #9 passes were, but that means nothing if the pass goes to a targeted receiver. This is partly about a lack creative running lines and partly about a #9 that has a lot less situational awareness than his predecessor.
It’s all fixable. The answer is a lot less about playing personnel than smart coaching.
26 Aug 2012, 17:08 pm
Well here we are again that was the boks 5th test under HM and already the long knives are out for his blood.My assessment of the team for what it is worth.
5=Average
15-Kirchener-6 just above
14-Habana-5 did nothing
13-De Villiers -4 did nothing
12-F Steyn-5-did nothing even his try was a fluke
11-Mvovo-3-not up to test standard
10-M Steyn-5-At the moment not uo to test standard.
9-Hougaard-9-For me he is still the best No 9 in SA rugby
8-Alberts-7-For me he is not an No 8 but playing well enough to stay in team
7-Potgeiter-6-A stop gap and nothing else
6-Coetzee-6A good player but i would rather have brussouw or stegmann
5-Bekker-3- Not up to test standard.
4-Etsebeth-6-He will have to beef up a bit to take Bakkies place
3-jdup-5-For me he just about makes it as a test player
2 -Strauss-4-For me he is not up to test standard
1-Beast-5-I class him in the same category as Jdup
According to my estimation HM has a lot of thinking to do about the players needing to be changed and who to replace them.If HM continues to play this team and use the same tactics thye AB`S will give the boks a good klap,home and away,but that is just my estimation for what it is worth.
26 Aug 2012, 17:39 pm
@blueboy-44: you reckon the kiwis would be happy with a draw with argentina even after 5 tests with hansen?
26 Aug 2012, 18:52 pm
Is HM on a 3 or 6 month probation period like all other jobs? I don’t see why the Bok coach should be virtually guaranteed a 4 year tenure. If they don’t cut the mustard (eg 70 or 80 % win ratio) they must get the sack!
Let’s give HM a chance, but a 60% win ratio (agaist a weak Eng side @ home and RC newbies Argentina) is a VERY poor start, from what I have seen thus far we will really struggle agaist the Wallabies and ABs.
26 Aug 2012, 19:04 pm
I like the way Premiership Soccer teams sack a coach mid season if he’s not delivering results – the boks need to do the same!
Problem is the coaching the Boks is such a poisoned chalice that no quality Intl Coach would consider the job. I feel the Boks need a Intl Coach like Warren Gatland or Eddie J.
26 Aug 2012, 19:14 pm
@blueboy-44:
15-Kirchener-5
14-Habana-4
13-De Villiers -3
12-F Steyn-5-
11-Mvovo-3-
10-M Steyn-4
9-Hougaard-6
8-Alberts-6
7-Potgeiter-4
6-Coetzee-5
5-Bekker-3
4-Etsebeth-6-
3-jdup-5
2 -Strauss-5
1-Beast-4
26 Aug 2012, 19:21 pm
Advice for Hieneken:
1. Get over “ball carriers” – the breakdown is a more important facet of modern rugby.
2. Two draws against the 4th and 8th ranked teams in the world respectively is not acceptable – change your game plan… it is not working
3. Lambie in, Steyn out (or are the millions of rugby fans around the world just morons)
4. “Too many bulls spoil the boks” – sellect a greater percentage of players from the unions that out-performed the Bulls comprehensively this year (they did so for a reason… better players).
5. Our challenge is now to come 2nd in the rugby championship, if the weakest Aussie team of a decade beats us to that spot I will tear and bin my Springbok jersey
6. Point 1 again – Ball Carriers mean nothing
26 Aug 2012, 21:08 pm
Last night was a travesty, but some of the things being said on here are nothing short of a joke. The coach is out of his depth? Only a few games ago we were steamrolling England in the first half of that 2nd test with ball in hand and everyone was celebrating Heyneke’s arrival. Now the entire team must be changed and Heyneke must go because he “is clearly out of his depth”. Words fail me.
26 Aug 2012, 21:14 pm
What we need to focus on is keeping the ball alive in contact instead of going to ground so easily. That’s when the breakdown becomes less of a focal point and you begin to make easy meters. Boks were doing it during the RWC under PDV. Something that can be coached – you don’t need wholesale changes.
27 Aug 2012, 01:28 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl-17: I agree that teh ref was being very lenient on teh Argies at the breaksdown, but FFs that is why we should have a plan to nullify this kind of ****.
27 Aug 2012, 01:29 am
If we are up against it with eth ref, we need to change to thext plan – keeop it close with the forwards, smash into their 22 (before they start their illegal play)and get the drop kick over.
27 Aug 2012, 01:47 am
@brains_trust-47:
Our NZ warriors team (Rugby League) coach got sacked about 5 games to go until end of season. It was his first year as well.
27 Aug 2012, 01:54 am
@SjamBok-52:
@SjamBok-53:
Dont listen to people who now think the Argies play illegally.
These people just cant figure out how an Argentine team can match it with the mighty Boks. So only way they can get there head around it is to believe the Argies played illegally.
Argies are no push overs.
I am quite worried when we go over and play them. Like a few on here i wont take them lightly and i hope our AB team does not relax around them.
27 Aug 2012, 02:06 am
No, excuses.. That effort was nothing short of pathetic. At what point will we realise that kicking the ball away is not the answer.
I’m sick to death of watching this failed tactic come into play time and time again.
Ball in hand with solid support play, Busting up the middle and drawing in the deffenders before spreading the ball to a DEEP backline that has room to execute a backline move. Time to wake up Bokke.. Have trust your ability boys.
27 Aug 2012, 02:20 am
@Hurricane-55:
Rest assured the Abs wont take the Argies lightly, not after what they did to the Bok on the weekend. In saying that I think we do need to give some of our reserves a run against them preferably at home, Cruden,Cane,Vito and Faumaina all need to get some starting game time.
27 Aug 2012, 03:20 am
@Te Rangatira-57:
Yep with you there. We need to play those players but would prefer them to start in NZ.
27 Aug 2012, 04:06 am
@Hurricane-55:
are the Argies cheating now, fark these SAFFA’s are really bleating now have they no pride?
27 Aug 2012, 05:23 am
@NZINCHINA-59:
Yeah just a few believe Argies are playing illegally.
Of course majority believe its a Bok problem but the few just can not accept that.
27 Aug 2012, 16:13 pm
This is where experience plays a massive role and why i disagree with most peoples posted dream teams full of young stars.
Things will get better.
Bekker is just no Matfield and our line-out contesting on opposition ball is ****. We need to turn over opposition ball in the line-out to ensure we starve them of ball and give ourselves more chance to play.
27 Aug 2012, 16:20 pm
Yip i agree we need to have more support runners and small offloads in the tackle. It will speed up our attack and not give the opposition time to regroup. currently we look like the Stormers on attack.
27 Aug 2012, 16:21 pm
Lambie or Goosen at Flyhalf, Joe Pieterson at the back to kick goals. F. Steyn to take longer range kicks
27 Aug 2012, 16:22 pm
Also agree Kruger rather than Bekker
27 Aug 2012, 17:01 pm
@ mike h 63- don’t replace k..k with k…k…
The best we have at fullback is that andries coetzee of the lions… U may differ with me but with lines he run from back is what we need… Some1 to ignite our backline… jean is becoming anonymous lately so is fransie…
15-coetzee(lions)
14-ndugane(bulls)
13-engelbrecht(bulls)
12-steyn(sharks)
11-habana(wp)
10-lambie(sharks)
9-hougaard(bulls)
I chose ndugane coz he is by far at the moment the better chaser for heinekes gameplan and he defends his channel well… Attacking wise we do need some one who attack the vantage line and lambie and hougaard will complement eachother
Jj will be a lovely runner off steyn.
8-vermeulen(wp)
7-alberts(sharks)
6-brussow(cheetas)
2 bulky forwards upfront to clean out with the skilfull brussow to attack the breakdowns and win us forward ball
5-kruger(bulls)
4-etzebeth(wp)
3-cilliers(lions)
2-strauss(cheetas)-captain
1-oosthuizen(cheetas)
Mobile enginroom and contestable in the scrums… Bekker is superkak so is jannie and beast is vading aswell… Heineke need to peel of the skulls and choose on merit… Not experience and what he think will work… He is losing my vote of confidence slowly but surely
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