Don’t fool yourselves
3 Sep 2012
MARK KEOHANE, in his weekly Business Day column, says South African rugby fans must keep Currie Cup results in context.
The rugby in Cape Town on Saturday was vintage Western Province; a reminder of a golden generation when Province were kings of the domestic castle. They smashed the traditional foe from the north, and they did it emphatically and they did it with style.
It was a fantastic performance from a team who a week earlier lost in Johannesburg to the Lions, who in turn lost at home to Griquas. It was a night of bliss in Cape Town, but it was one night. Enjoy it. Live the 80 minutes and celebrate the match.
If only.
Province, apparently, have turned the corner. Those players who are on national duty are no longer required. Jean de Villiers can head back to Munster and Allister Coetzee has finally broken the shackles of Rassie Erasmus’s supposed dictatorship and defensive diet.
The social network bloggers, predominantly with a Cape Town address, needed no second invitation to tell South Africa and the rest of the world that their team had scored five tries, played rugby apparently foreign to any other team and finally produced the blueprint for the future.
The only thing more painful than a losing Province supporter is a winning one. Win or lose, they remain demanding and nagging and fail to recognise the moment, live the occasion and celebrate the victory.
Defeat is never defeat and victory is never just victory. The passion is the positive, but the ignorance is too much of a negative because of an absolute disregard of context.
This was not a Super Rugby match and it was not a Test match. It was domestic rugby and it is no longer the measurement of our rugby. At least it should not be.
You only have to look at the Lions to know this. Champions of the Currie Cup last year, the Lions ended 15th out of 15 in Super Rugby.
But already the expectation is that Province, in the guise of the Stormers, will dismantle whoever visits Newlands in next year’s Super Rugby contest. Already every Province player is a victim of Heyneke Meyer’s alleged Blue Bulls bias.
Applaud what Province produced at Newlands. How could you not? But for goodness sake take into account the nature of the competition, the absence of so many international players and the fact that Currie Cup league rugby cannot be compared with Super Rugby; let alone Test rugby.
The love for the Currie Cup is a South African strength, but it is also a curse because it provides an escape every year from the reality of Super Rugby. It allows too many to quickly forget why South African teams may have failed when they were asked to consistently beat the best in South Africa, Australia and New Zealand.
The Currie Cup is the feeder to Super Rugby and the two competitions need to be separated, especially in assessing the performance of players.
The giants of the Currie Cup are too often the dwarves of Super Rugby.
Province were superb in beating the Bulls 42-6 in the Currie Cup. The Sharks were marginally better at home in edging the Cheetahs 34-32, and Griquas left Johannesburg victors after an explosive first 30 minutes. It all looked so good when viewed in isolation, just as our rugby always did when the rest of the world refused to play against us.
View the domestic performances as such and don’t make comparisons with Super Rugby and with what is being produced at Test level. It is unfair on the players on national duty.
South African rugby, more than any other southern hemisphere nation, has protected the tradition of its premier domestic competition. The supporters of the game in this country are the reason there is such an interest in the Currie Cup. But the Currie Cup of today does not compare with the pre-professionalism one and Super Rugby. It is secondary in significance and the greater prize is not domestic dominance and bragging rights in October. The greater prize is which South African team can claim glory in Super Rugby.
What happens in the Currie Cup is also no measure of what happens in Super Rugby, just as in Super Rugby, success offers no guaranteed positive in relation to Test rugby.
Which brings me back to Newlands and Johannesburg. Don’t be conned by a belief that the glory of a domestic night — when it all seems so easy and so perfect — is anything but a good night. The euphoria has to be contextualised just as the pessimism has to be bottled on the night of defeat.
Province losing to the Lions a week ago was meaningless in the context of anything beyond the Currie Cup. Equally so, beating the Bulls at home.
Recognise — and don’t confuse — the occasion.
149 Comments
3 Sep 2012, 10:05 am
“The only thing more painful than a losing Province supporter is a winning one”
winning is painfull dragons
3 Sep 2012, 10:09 am
speak for yourself wrt super rugby keo
i am done and dusted
that ship has sailed for me
have moved on
from here on in its cc in all its glory for me
3 Sep 2012, 10:10 am
didn’t see the bulls game thank heavens. Not interested in what happened, the score says it all.
But is there anything new there from a Bulls perspective. No, not really….our squads have drifted from the sublime to the rubbish on a weekly basis for the past 18 months now.
One thing is for sure….Pine Pienaar will be feeling the pressure now. Ironically, is he a coach fighting a lone battle and have his assistants that have left been replaced yet? Nonetheless, a side with that sort of quality on paper should not be taking 42 points. The players also have plenty to answer for performance wise.
3 Sep 2012, 10:13 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl-3: one week pine pienaar manhandles the sharks and the next get pomped by province…which is the real pine?
3 Sep 2012, 10:19 am
This article’s a bit unfair… I haven’t seen any WP fan comments going to the lengths Keo describes here. Yes, they have been shouting from the rooftops, as most fans do when their team wins a massive derby like this one but I don’t think anyone or at least not EVERYONE (like he suggests) has made it out to be the second coming….
Firstly, the new format of the CC surely means that any win is more impressive than it used to be. Secondly, with the Boks out for both teams its surely an indicator of where the unions are heading. Thirdly, this piece is a little too sour grapey to me, and I don’t know why Keo is being such a wet blanket. I know it’s his job as a sports journalist to cover these sorts of things, but what does he really say here??? He names one team that has performed well in the CC then done badly in the S15 (the lions) and the rest is all rhetoric. I don’t think it’s good enough to come out all scrooge mcduck on WP fans without backing it up with some facts, I know this is just a blog and not SuperSport but come on… Maybe its just me. But everyone’s got their own opinion, and this one doesnt seem particularly well founded.
3 Sep 2012, 10:19 am
@Transformation-4:
why lay into pine alone for what was clearly a player attitude problem.
as a coach you really can only take the horse to the water (i.e. you cant take the field and play the game for them) and whether it chooses to drink the sweet nectar from the lifegiving oasis or not is entirely a decision of its making.
3 Sep 2012, 10:26 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-6: where am i “laying into” him?
3 Sep 2012, 10:31 am
The Bulls were atrocious on Saturday! They seem to be a bit schizo this season, playing badly every alternate weekend! But they looked absolutely clueless and without heart on Saturday! The players need to take their fair share of responsibility for what happened on the day!
3 Sep 2012, 10:33 am
WP could be on the receiving end of a beating like this on any given weekend, it doesn’t mean the players are k@k just as it doesn’t mean they’re world beaters after a great performance.
Developing youngsters from ALL unions into consistently good players with the greater focus on Super Rugby is how I view CC these days.
3 Sep 2012, 10:37 am
@Transformation-7:
oh i’m sorry, did the real transie not turn up?
which is the real transie…
3 Sep 2012, 10:38 am
5 @ Tarlo
Agree hundred percent.
Jirre Keo who p!issed on your Cornflakes?
The young talent on display was awesome in the 2 games I watched and its great to see youngsters plying their trade without the Springboks around – it was my first time watching players like Blommetjies, Broche and Siyabonga Ntubeni (he was HUGE).
There are others but those 3 really impressed and I think they have big futures. Paul Jordaan is another who is developing nicely.
The preparation for next years S15 actually starts now as coaches look to develop youngsters into their culture and game plan.
The CC is a great competition that maybe doesn’t have Springboks but to see the up and coming talent is great entertainment and a lot more interesting then watching the Lions get handed another 50 point snotting in Super Rugby.
3 Sep 2012, 10:39 am
I believe this statement is completely unfounded. The only team ever to do really poorly in the Super Rugby has been the lions. The cheetahs have improved over the seasons despite their limited resources where the lions have been poorly managed and have lost a lot of quality players over the years. I think that any team that can get the results in the S15 and still managed to produce a winning performance in the CC is on the right track. Keo also forgets to mention that the only reason why these so called minnows don’t perform well is because the s15 is the most demanding competition on the planet. You lose 4 key players and your season is over. The Highlanders were leading in the first half of the season and played some great rugby but after a few injuries and as players started to feel the fatigue their season started to slip really fast.
I would agree, don’t be flummoxed by the CC and believe that your team would do well, but it is also a great comp in terms of entertainment, upsets and expansive rugby.
The bulls on the night were absolutely terrible, their backline never got moving and JJ was once again exposed as a weak defender. WP is producing some good youngsters but so are the Sharks. It’s going to be a hell of a season and I’m going to enjoy every minute of it. Whether province win or lose, as long as they play good rugby I will support them.
For the players the real test is if you can perform in the CC and you can keep up in the S15, you will have a great future ahead of you. One only have to look at Goosen.
3 Sep 2012, 10:39 am
Sorry KEO got question for you. In the latest SA rugby in the article on Bok scrumhalves, Meyer talks about Hougaard having potential and that his scrumhalf skills set is not ready yet as hes played a lot on the wing. He then says that Pienaars skills set is complete and that hes playing great rugby. Why then would he start with Hougaard and not Pienaar? Did you ask as this makes no sense to me?
3 Sep 2012, 10:44 am
@Bok fan-13: Or whoever the writer was, not sure
3 Sep 2012, 10:45 am
This is our year.
3 Sep 2012, 10:49 am
Thats the spirit Gunther, spoken like a true WP supporter
3 Sep 2012, 10:49 am
Firstly , Geluk aan WeeePEEE
At least the younsters showed they want to play rugga , Forwards doing the hard work and backs could play, simple…
I do not agree Keo, we know the situation/position, but to see younsters coming through on next level and to try different game plans , thats the role of cc
I hope Pine decides to change from the Kick and Chase game. For fff sake Pine use your backs or sell the talentr if you are not going to use them. Get your forwards to play. I can not remember once that I saw a WP lock or a prop , but I did see quick ball , that was the key..
3 Sep 2012, 10:50 am
@Tarlo-5:
I have to agree! The Currie Cup in this new format of being played by mostly the second stringers is not the competition it used to be. Winning the Currie Cup is no longer the be all and end all. Winning the Super Trophy is what counts. Vodacom and Currie Cup pretty much the same thing. I’m a Province supporter but I for one don’t think they are the second coming and only judge our performance on playing against the Super teams…
To be honest I don’t really care much about the Currie Cup and see it as a feeder competition for unions… No disrespect only honesty…
3 Sep 2012, 10:52 am
Oh dear. Instead of ranting on about WP fans, should old Keo not be asking WTF is happening in Pretoria?
I feel that all the buying of promising juniors from other provinces is starting to blow up in their faces. Their snatch and grab, then release, recruitment policy was never going to deliver IMHO of course.
A true Bulls team usually has at least 5 players born and bred under the shadow of Loftus and the history of the union.
Looks like most of these youngsters are playing for a salary more than the union.
Just my opinion of course….before the Brig and TicTactoe burst an anal sac.
3 Sep 2012, 10:54 am
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-19:
3 Sep 2012, 10:56 am
@Transformation-4:
I think we’ll see a lot of inconsistant performances and results throughout the CC while the RC is still on.
3 Sep 2012, 10:57 am
@gunther-15:
What is your opinion of the centre JP du Plessis?- did he not make Sadie and new bok JJ Engelbrecht his beetches?
3 Sep 2012, 10:57 am
Lol @ anal sac!!!
3 Sep 2012, 11:00 am
@ 22 Robzim
I hope him and Broche get to build on their combo – those 2 were very good together. I think its not so much the Bulls midfield who sucked, its more that the Province midfield just schooled them.
3 Sep 2012, 11:01 am
@Robzim-22: Thought he looked full of promise, also liked the look of Brache and that cheetah Ruhle this weekend….of course the acid test is playing against stiffer competition but a lot of these young guys look hungry!! JJ & CJ weren’t as bad as some say, given his side were going backwards all night…
How much better were the CC games to watch than the rubbish the Boks have been dishing up?
3 Sep 2012, 11:05 am
@gunther-15:
3 Sep 2012, 11:11 am
This is Keo’s favourite approach of late – to piss on the parade, point out how he’s seen it all before and how he knows best. “I am a somewhat jaded rugby journalist. Your ideas, your hopes…the dillusion of mere mortals. Listen up peasants.”
Who the hell did you talk to to provoke this article a mere 48 hours later? What negative dross to read on a Monday morning. Who cares who won or that it’s the Currie Cup? At a time when SA rugby looks boring and one-dimensional, it was a pleasure to watch a game where it actually looked like some South African rugby players had not had the ambition drilled out of their game. Bonus, it didn’t come at the expense of defensive structures. Celebrate that rather than crush it.
3 Sep 2012, 11:11 am
@Atreides-25: Personally, I much preferred watching the young guys playing with heart and commitment in the CC than the drivel the Boks have been serving up lately. Watching the Boks struggle with this antiquated game plan is heart breaking to me!
I don’t know if we will be able to challenge the convicts on Saturday without at least a 100% improvement or a drastic change in tactics! I’ll still watch in hope but I’m not expecting a victory!
3 Sep 2012, 11:11 am
@Blokkies-24:
@Atreides-25:
Brache certainly has improved since last year. He seems to style his game on the way SBW plays, always looking for that specia offload.
The question is now wheher they can repeat that performance against the Cheetahs next week or whether it was just “one of those nights”.
3 Sep 2012, 11:12 am
Agree Keo, the two comps do need to be separated but I think in terms of CC rugby and S15, each has their own place. Each differ in style and context. I certainly don’t believe that Super rugby is the be all and end all of rugby. We need to stop down-playing a competition that is in danger of becoming a has-been of sporting events. It’s South African, it’s our tradition, it’s our heritage. It will always have things and a certain appeal that S15 can never offer.
3 Sep 2012, 11:12 am
Since Sadie an JJ has been Blou bulle they have not beaten Province or Stormers keep up the good work guys
3 Sep 2012, 11:13 am
Keo is just making stuff up. No-one I know suddenly claims that WP have turned the corner and this is how rugby is to be played blah blah blah.
3 Sep 2012, 11:16 am
@Reserve Naartjie-27:
…errm, I think he wrote this piece for you.
The blind ****** that also finds a banana every so often.
3 Sep 2012, 11:16 am
The good thing with JP Dup is, unlike certain others, he seems to have patience.
He seems to want to play for WP, and is prepared to bide his time and pay his dues (at least it looks that way…until he signs for the Bulls or Sharks I suppose ***bewildered smiley***)
In all honesty, when he came back from Australia, he knew he would have to start at the bottom once again, even though he was one of the most hyped up schoolboy players in the history of the WPRFU.
He apparently said last week, that as a school kid he had dreamed of wearing the blue and white hoops against the Bulls (NorthernT) – which shows some sort of passion still kicking in the kid after his Aussie travels.
There just seems to be a good vibe with this kid (and a lovely step), unlike the Sadies of the world.
Then again, the Sadies of the world serve their purpose as well….other talented kids learn life lessons from the Sadies of the world’s mistakes.
The Bulls have about 8 midfielders in their cupboard, so surely he wouldn’t dream of moving up there….the Sharks, midfield also pretty full….so hopefully he stays here.
3 Sep 2012, 11:17 am
@Robzim-29: Yep, don’t know much about him but he looked good. Even SBW would have been proud of that diving offload! Wish JDV or Frans could offload like that
Jordaan also playing very well
3 Sep 2012, 11:20 am
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-34: There’s so much talent coming through,(despite what certain kiwi butt holes on this site say) what we need i a coach who can turn them into the best players they can be, and gel them into a unit, rather than moering them all into his little round holes with a sledgehammer…
3 Sep 2012, 11:20 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl-33:
why the hell is m-onkey deleted out?
3 Sep 2012, 11:25 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl-37: Only in SA!! lol
3 Sep 2012, 11:27 am
@Atreides-36:
Not us bagging your team.
Its you own supporters. Which one of us said there was no talent coming through?
Fact is SA won the Junior RWC, that alone says alot.
3 Sep 2012, 11:28 am
Keo, do you want some cheese with that wine. Don’t drop your lip just because your blueHMpussies got smashed. May I point out that we f’d your little pink beeches in the S15 as well…… twice!
3 Sep 2012, 11:29 am
@Hurricane-39: Not you Hurri
3 Sep 2012, 11:33 am
I think Keo is Tacitus.
3 Sep 2012, 11:34 am
@Atreides-36: While I still don’t believe we have the depth NZ have in terms of raw talent (probably because half of our raw talent is told by ‘expert coaches’ they are too small for rugby when they are 6 years old) we certainly have a player base that SHOULD make us 1 or 2 in the world at any given time – no lower than 2.
If I get started on this topic again, Gunther and co will puke. But facts are: we miss out on plensch raw talent because it doesn’t fit the ‘SA rugga profile’ OR we bulk it up with roids and USN kak, teach it to kick, teach it to run into walls and bench press huge weights….what we don’t teach it to do, is think for itself
Just watch any primary school rugby game, and you will clearly see where things already start going wrong for many of our future players.
We have the laziest coaches in the world…….from the bottom – all the way to the top.
They are too lazy to coach, and find it easier to select the biggest kids..
3 Sep 2012, 11:36 am
well, look….it’s not exactly 75-14 was it now?
and that was in Superrugby.
oh, and so was the 43-3 arsewipping, at newlands nogal.
3 Sep 2012, 11:41 am
didn’t see it but did read out it……Dewald Potgieter was booed at the announcement of his 50th CC at newlands, a ground that holds a particularly important memory for him outside of rugby.
classy guys, really classy
3 Sep 2012, 11:43 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl-45: Probably the same toothless half-witted inbred morons who cheer for the kiwis…
3 Sep 2012, 11:43 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl-44: Ah, the Bulls glory days…..How you must miss them….
3 Sep 2012, 11:43 am
Not on the same trend as Keo, but I listened to Allister after the match and he made it clear that the only corner turned was one where players executed the same game plan and strategies they have had during Super Rugby better.
There was no different game plan at hand, no different plan of attack – not from a coaching point of view.
In Allister words, this is what you can expect if we get our game plan right and execute well…
3 Sep 2012, 11:45 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl-45:
Stop trying to deflect the klap you guys got, so he was booed, not nice but it happens. Percy was booed as a Bok at Loftus, now that’s really classy, move on and accept the klap like a man.
3 Sep 2012, 11:48 am
@touch.pause.engage-49:
I live in Pta and go to Loftus a lot. Went to the Bulls Stormers game. The booing around me was so irritating, yet the pottle is calling the kettle black. It happens as you say – move on…
3 Sep 2012, 11:50 am
@PissAnt-48: I am so sick and tired of this talk… No the gameplan was executed correctly.. the lamest excuse for winning or losing for not wanting to admit your previous gameplan was flawed.
In all reality, this was the first Bonuspoint for Wp THIS YEAR! Thats right, for the whole year… so what he tries to tell us is that they could not execute the gameplan for a whole 8 months? BS!!
They must just accept what we all said along… you can defend while you have some attacking plan in place for when you have the ball… and rather try to have the ball all the time than kick it away and do what you do best… defend…. rahter attacke and defend when it is needed…
But like all bulls fans since saturday points out… no matter the gameplan.. still no silverware in the Cape since 2001….
3 Sep 2012, 11:51 am
@Atreides-36: shame we never get to see this “talent”
its all built up like Goosen, who has performed well for half a Super season and he is suddenly the saviour of Bok rugby..
you guys always do this, and it invariably heaps too much pressure then when they have one bad game they are rubbish..
it is laughable in the extreme, and this is one kiwi who continues to laugh at all the amazing “talent” SA fans seem to think they have..
if you count boofheads trying to run over their opposition as talent, then I guess it makes you the same..
3 Sep 2012, 11:53 am
@PissAnt-48: Bullshit…
Not you, Allister.
What changed is that we had a proper scrumhalf in the team. Nic Groom was phenomenal when not trying to do stupid box kicks.
We had forwards who hit rucks and secured possession rather than stood at flyhalf or out of the wing (Brok and Bekker) and no useless JdV to kill all ball that went past the flyhalf (God he is kak).
Our centres ran straight lines for once, it was beautiful!
Minor selection changes, resulted in 90% less kicking and 90% more passing and possession while still retaining our brutal defense.
We also contested the breakdown properly with Fourie but won lineouts because we had a proper hooker.
Fkall to do with execution, with such experienced players in our S15 team you telling me they can’t execute a gameplan properly?
Pull the other one…
3 Sep 2012, 11:53 am
@Provvas-51: Well said.
3 Sep 2012, 11:53 am
@PissAnt-48:
so basically….execution over innovation?
exactly what the current bok coach is saying?
how about that?
@touch.pause.engage-49:
percy got booed because he wore platforms and was playing so superkak even a useless delport was better. And even then, that is no excuse.
potgieter got booed at a ground where his young cancer ridden bother got his last wish before passing of running onto the field in a supergame as a ball boy.1996 or something. Tragic story out there somewhere.
3 Sep 2012, 11:55 am
@shark4life-28: Selections will be key
3 Sep 2012, 11:55 am
KEO: When will it be allowed to ciaches players and the like to say what we wanna hear in post match interviews?
I for one switch chaneels the moment the game is done, cause there is no sense in listening to the same drivel from each coach, player and the like at a post match interview.. The Media is really missing a great oppurtunity to spice things up.
rather then the No we were dissapointing and we needc to go back to the drawing board, no but there is positives to take out of the game, No I am proud of the way the boys put their bodies on the line ****…
Ask questions that those type of answers are not possible. Like:
Did you enjoy getting raped in this game?
Why cant your fullback not catch the high ball?
Do you like missing so many tackles?
Do you think you are the right coach for these youngsters..
Now those will cook up a Sh.itstorm!!
3 Sep 2012, 11:56 am
@Provvas-51:
don’t know how you WP guys do it.
The Bulls have had no trophy since 2010 and I’m already pissed.
3 Sep 2012, 12:00 pm
WP played beautiful rugby and thats why they won! No so called big names in the squad to spoil the way you supposed to play. No JDV to kill fast ball to the backs…Well played and this from a BB supporter!
3 Sep 2012, 12:00 pm
@Bagel-53:
That was the message.
For my money Groom was the difference – been saying for years Duvenhage is overrated. And WP lost Francois Hougaard because of his preferred selection…
3 Sep 2012, 12:02 pm
@ 49 touch pause
amen
3 Sep 2012, 12:04 pm
@Brigadier Van Zyl-58: Some Province supporting frineds of mine are so delusional that they cling onto that Conference cup like white on rice…
The problem is partly what Keo touches in the article. .The Currie Cup is used as a platform for the S15 season.. This should not be allowed, Can you imagine Ac get told if we do not win the Currie cup, they reckon he could not win the Super cup, thus he will be fired, what wil his reaction be? He will do everything to get the cup, but Now he is allowed to hide behind we are using the CC to build for the Super Tournie. ****!!
I have said this millions times.. Surely winning the CC is best preparation to getting the S title? Or do you see 3 semis in 3 years and no trophy as better preparation AC?
3 Sep 2012, 12:04 pm
@Provvas-51:
Don’t expect any either – another thing he made very clear is that although they would like to do well (in the CC), their aim is to build depth for Super Rugby.
3 Sep 2012, 12:06 pm
@PissAnt-60: you think AC and Fleck will Fark up this raw talent in about 5 weeks of “Training and coaching”?
3 Sep 2012, 12:07 pm
@poppa69-52: Read my post re: our talent.
3 Sep 2012, 12:07 pm
@PissAnt-60: And Catrakillis was great too.
Not sure if he’s the long term solution, stands a bit deep and he’s no Elton, but he knows how to get the backs away. Some phenomenal passes, that one to Aplon for De Allendes try (WHAT A RUNNER by the way?) was just sublime…
3 Sep 2012, 12:08 pm
@PissAnt-63: He uses that line as a back up yes, but before the Bulls game in all seriousness siad we needed to start winning games becasue he knew it will blow up in his face if he thinks the cape fans will allow him to :build” all season without any wins
3 Sep 2012, 12:11 pm
@Bagel-66:
he’s going to the kings if I have read correctly.
3 Sep 2012, 12:14 pm
@Brigadier Van Zyl-55: I hate the booing, anywhere in the world, and I hate it at my teams stadium – Newlands. When a player like Dewald (who was a WP fan his whole life while growing up) is booed it leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I was there, and I can tell you straight – MANY in the stands were disgusted by the reception he got. Some don’t even know why they are booing, and start before the players even run out. Half the booers didn’t even realise it was Dewald’s 50th game, and were expecting the Bulls team to run out, not Dewald alone (The stadium announcer is never heard at Newlands….) No excuses – they could have stopped when they saw Dewald alone on the field.
There were many who stood and applauded him – sadly, that meant nothing, as the boo-ers dominated.
Fuckingdisgusting.
I hate it, and I’m actually stuck trying to remember exactly when it started.
3 Sep 2012, 12:18 pm
@Brigadier Van Zyl-68: Good on him.
Na we need Elton. Full stop. Most complete 10 in the country IMO, Goosen equally as talented but still too raw.
Elton has shown he has mental strength, the most important quality of a 10, kicks his goals, makes his tackles, knows when to stand in the pocket, but usually takes the ball flat flicking little passes this way and that to his support runners opening up gaps.
For me, if Heineke wants to continue with his gameplan then he needs someone who can vary the play with regards to his runners, and who can have a go himself if need be. Elton can do this. In fact there is nothing Morne does better than Elton these days. Perhaps averages 5m more on clearance kicks…
3 Sep 2012, 12:20 pm
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-65: I dont doubt that it is there, and on occassion they do break through and go on to be stars of the game…
one only need look at Pienaar or even Lambie to notice how it is misused… it happens in NZ rugby too, but not to the same extent imho..
3 Sep 2012, 12:24 pm
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-69:
Agree, should be eradicated completely, no place for it in rugby. (or in any sport for that matter)
3 Sep 2012, 12:31 pm
@poppa69-52: On the basis of your post alone I have to admit for once I agree with you. I would have let Goosen play out the season in CC
3 Sep 2012, 12:35 pm
@KWAGGA ROBERTSE-73: yep, EOYT is the perfect time to blood him… but even then, only as a replacement for the last 20 mins max, per game… he shows a lot of promise, but has not played a lot since injury, very risky if Meyer plays him (dont think he will tbh) in TRC..
3 Sep 2012, 12:38 pm
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-69:
The same thing happens when a guy is kicking to posts. So irratating.
You watch games in Ireland and even Twickenham and there is a silent hush when any players kicks to poles.
3 Sep 2012, 12:40 pm
@poppa69-74: Yip. I reckon he is the real deal but I feel he bieng oushed into the big show way to early after his injury. To me this kid is the no 10 for a at least the next 8 years or so if he stays fir and develops futher into the mould. Lambie should be played at 15 going forward
3 Sep 2012, 12:41 pm
So I missed history in the making – wp scoring 4 tries in a match. Yippie yay how exciting!
NOT
I find it hard to watch any rugby these days – since those doos’s at SARU killed my team for good. When the RC is finished I will be cancelling my supersport – what’s the point paying your subscription to not watch your team. I’m going for either the R99 a month package or the R20 a month package.
Some transformer in the EC can subscribe to the R651 a month package if he, she or it wants to watch the Kings.
3 Sep 2012, 12:42 pm
@Gumboots-75: Must say I am always impressed when watching ruggas in those countries and you can hear a pin drop when anybody lines up a kick.
I also believe it is only a handfull of poepolle at Newlands causing the kak. Most probably the same morons supporting the Crusaders and ABs.
Its pathetic to say the least. Takes us back to the 80s
3 Sep 2012, 12:44 pm
@RL-77: Why not walk accross the Jukskei…… hehehe
3 Sep 2012, 12:46 pm
@Gumboots-75:
another stupid kiwi innovation.
3 Sep 2012, 12:46 pm
@KWAGGA ROBERTSE-78: no, Bok fans boo too…too many instances to care to count!
3 Sep 2012, 12:46 pm
@KWAGGA ROBERTSE-76: agree on Goosen… I would play Lambie in the position he wants to play in.. if it is 1st 5/8 so be it… having world class players competing for the same spot is healthy for a rugby side, not detrimental… and playing them out of position weakens the team, rarely does it strengthen it more..
NZ had it with Carter and Evans, and we now have it with Carter and Cruden… it keeps the incumbent honest, and knowing there is an able replacement waiting raises their level… this imo is the reason Morne is struggling, because he has had an armchair ride and has had no one pushing for his spot on the team..
3 Sep 2012, 12:47 pm
In some ways I agree with Keo but in general I don’t , yes perspective is needed and the saying one swallow don’t make it spring comes to mind. (Even though it is Spring lol). For me personally I felt the game was awesome as a WP fan but I don’t expect us to suddenly dominate this year CC or next year in the S15. Its just that after a season of dull S15 rugby it was refreshing to see a Cape team show some respect for possession and patience and flair on attack. They also did not sacrifice any of their solid defence.
It was beautiful to see a centre like Brache not wanting to run over the opposition but always look to keep the ball alive and when it was needed he backed himself. Personally I never understood how people could not see his potential and it was really awesome so see the young JP Du Plessis finally coming of age (how great was that pass for Brache’s try ). I expected huge things from him and he delivered empathically. Off course the biggest difference on the day was at Halfback ! Everyone and his dog said it somewhere along the line that the problem for the Stormers/Wp is at halfback ! How good was Groom hey ? Its just a pity that it took us this long to see him get a chance.
Some are saying that this was weakened Bulls team but they forget that WP only had Devenhage and Elkstad starting that were regulars and in some cases we had our 3/4th choices playing , We had a flank at lock and a hooker at flank !! So lets celebrate a famous WP victory in a great competition , anyone that compares the CC to vodacom cup rugby should be shot. Just listening to the interviews of the youngsters where they talk glowingly of playing for WP against the Bulls in the CC as something they dreamed off gives us some kind of idea how much the comp is valued ! Granted it aint Super rugby but its the best premier domestic rugby comp in the world. How much more can you expect from it.
Lets hope the trend continues even if we lose , at least we will have something to look forward too.
GO WP !!!
3 Sep 2012, 12:47 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-80: I see your paranoia is complete..
bravo..
3 Sep 2012, 12:48 pm
@poppa69-82: Good point.@Transformation-81: Ja they do…….at Newlands!!
3 Sep 2012, 12:51 pm
@KWAGGA ROBERTSE-85: no, most places in SA…
3 Sep 2012, 12:52 pm
@sparticus-83: Weakened teams on both sides. Fair contest that was won by a far superior team on the day. However I feel this Bulls team is way better than the result suggests…………(Saying this whilst looking tearfully at the scoreboard)
Well done the WP supporters. Julle het ons lekker hard gedonner!!
3 Sep 2012, 12:53 pm
@KWAGGA ROBERTSE-85: who do you think booed Percy, booed Pdv & matfield, booed MSteyn? booed Frans Steyn?
3 Sep 2012, 12:54 pm
@Transformation-86: You always have that to some degree anywhere in the country, but none as bad as in Cape town Transie but I see this can go round and round on this one. Fact is that Cape Town now has that label,
3 Sep 2012, 12:55 pm
@Transformation-88: Hoe de moer moet ek weet? Seker maar jy…
3 Sep 2012, 13:08 pm
@Transformation-88:
I remember the Pretoria crowd booing the Boks a good few years back – the days of the Cape Cabal 
Players came out to warm up and Fleck, Rossouw, Paulse and co were all booed and abused as they sat watching some warm up game. All the WP players in the Bok setup.
I hate it full stop.
Then again, rather booing, than a drunk fitter and turner chucking a Powerade bottle at Kevin M and then pulling the “I needed to see that Bjorn Basson was ok, as I am qualified paramedic in my dreams……” defence.
3 Sep 2012, 13:13 pm
@poppa69-84:
a stadium full of bottle throwing blues would beg to differ.
3 Sep 2012, 13:16 pm
I remember the Pretoria fans booing Ruan Pienaar when he missed a couple kicks against the B&I Lions.
This after he had kicked 100% at Kings Park.
Only reason was because Morne was on the bench.
Mind you I remember Sharks fans booing Frans Steyn in a Sharks game! Was the East Stand though.
Full of okes from the Bluff.
3 Sep 2012, 13:17 pm
@KWAGGA ROBERTSE-89:
no, boks being booed in durban 2008 i think? was still the loudest and most vociferous i’ve heard a team being booed locally yet.
that is was the boks suffering their own supporter shook me to the core i must admit.
pe was selective booing of morne and anyone kicking up and unders but also bad.
3 Sep 2012, 13:20 pm
what i do respect is that saffas across the provincial board have the self effacing honesty to admit this about themselves unlike the pathetic and cowardly kiwis who prefer blank denial, projecting and stadium management/nzru cover ups instead.
we have grown a lot in the last 20 years.
others have not.
3 Sep 2012, 13:24 pm
kieran “disgusting orc face” read exhorting his fellow stadium attendee mordor’ians to hiss, spit and boo the opposition stormers i think? blegh…
3 Sep 2012, 13:28 pm
@John Galt-93: Forgot about that! It was all about Morne’s non selection to start at the time.
Back in 2001 at a test in Bloem against the Poms (Johnny Wilko on the rise at the time….), we lost that test, and quite a few fans that had come to Bloem from around the country started giving ‘little’ boos – nothing major, and a salt of the earth Free State fellow turned and looked up at the sections of the stands doing this and he said, “moet asb nie die kak hier in Bloem ook begin”.
And to be honest, I don’t think the Free Staters can be lumped with the rest of the country when it comes to booing…
That day, I also saw a hammered Pom fall about 2 levels down after hanging over stadium railings after the game. Memories.
3 Sep 2012, 14:02 pm
Yet another article along the lines of Yoda Keohane educating the dumb supporters. Typing same thing over and over and over. This “journalism” would never get published in any other country.
3 Sep 2012, 14:09 pm
Sad truth is WP/Stormers doesnt fear us anymore.
They’ve beaten us consistently over the last couple of years, this being the icing on the cake.
How I long for the days of 75 -14.
Hope we can turn a corner.
And soon.
3 Sep 2012, 14:16 pm
thats the way bakkies, get it all out son…
let the hatred flow mate..
go on bru, dont hold back, tell us what you really think..
3 Sep 2012, 14:30 pm
@Taahirah-99: I think we are starting to fear them. If you want to beat this young Bulls team just take it to them up front. They are so use to front foot ball from the forwards when they play junior rugby that thet cannot play without it.
I think tthe Bulls should seriously look at paying big money to get Guthro, Bakkies and Danie Rossouw back. All of them have a few more years in them. In Guthro’s case he is probably in the prime of his career.
3 Sep 2012, 14:33 pm
@poppa69-100:
the conversation thread topic was specifically about various stadiums and the fans of the teams based there who boo visiting teams/players.
i was just adding my two cents worth you knobend and if you took the time to notice you would have seen me list the durban and pe booing of the bok team too.
it isn’t always about you chop, its a disgusting phenomenon (which really carries over from nz but that beside the point) everywhere in the world that it happens.
the difference between us is how we deal with it as compared to middle earth / mordor
3 Sep 2012, 14:35 pm
@Horings-101:
truer words could never be spoken.
the bulls need to go back to the future….
3 Sep 2012, 14:36 pm
@Horings-101: Indeed. Been following Bakkies Twitter-feed, he misses home.
3 Sep 2012, 14:39 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-102: and your comments re Reid? a bloke youve never met yet you feel justified to say the things you do?
were you just mouthing off again because your paranoia just cant be contained?
its great to see though, you just cant help yourself anymore.
does us kiwis consistently bettering you guys really hurt that much?
excellent…
3 Sep 2012, 14:59 pm
@poppa69-105:
huh? read specifically incited an entire stadium to do just that..boo and jeer the visiting team..? and this when the kicker was lining up to kick?
how is this not appropriate to the topic at hand?
or are you reacting to my comment about his not too exciting facial features?
the guy looks like a laughing orc monkee who’s had one of those v for vendetta facemasks transplanted onto him in a botched face transplant surgery… get over it…
3 Sep 2012, 15:06 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-106: yawn, again, you attack the player personally from your little man syndrome..
good to see, I hope it eats you up inside..
3 Sep 2012, 15:08 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-106: Sad, isn’t he
3 Sep 2012, 15:13 pm
Well said Keo, well said!! Aparently WP is now everbodies 2nd team (use to be the Cheetahs, until they won a Currie Cup or two). I’ve had call, BBM’s, SMS’s and postal pigeon messages from every man and his dog, regardless of provincial affiliation. Either the BB’s are much more feared than expected, or the win was akin to WP winning the RWC single-handedly!
3 Sep 2012, 15:18 pm
@poppa69-107:
alright, i take back the things i said about him personally.
do you agree on the things i said about him as a player inciting fans to boo and jeers being bad?
@Atreides-108:
for his actions, yes
for his looks, no (its not nice to say)
3 Sep 2012, 15:27 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-110: I meant Pooper
3 Sep 2012, 15:32 pm
@Atreides-111:
oh i see
3 Sep 2012, 15:41 pm
Does execut!on over !nnovat!on mean, play as you were told and don’t use your own !n!at?ve.
3 Sep 2012, 16:04 pm
Lanklaas so ‘n pot kak deur Keo gelees!! Goeie moer man, heel jaar al gee hy en sy floubul tjommies ons WP supporters kak oor ons spelpatroon en wat nog alles. Sy moer man, ons het julle al 3 keer die jaar getroef!! En dis ons voorreg om bietjie windgat te wees!!
3 Sep 2012, 16:42 pm
@Beast-109: Ag please, the only thing afraid of a Blue Bull is a cheeseburger…
3 Sep 2012, 16:54 pm
Please Keo, your article is like a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing… Yes it’s from Macbeth.
“But already the expectation is that Province, in the guise of the Stormers, will dismantle whoever visits Newlands in next year’s Super Rugby contest. Already every Province player is a victim of Heyneke Meyer’s alleged Blue Bulls bias.”
What a load of hogwash…by the way, except for the final Newlands game, no-one beat the Stormers at Newlands in 2012…already happened. Do you honestly think that anyone thinks that Province are now world-beaters? Bull-Bashers definitely, but the Bulls are hardly worth mentioning nowadays.
3 Sep 2012, 16:59 pm
This is an article from a man that tweeted the the Boks need more Bulls in the side !!! Sour grapes I guess.
3 Sep 2012, 17:23 pm
@Taahirah-104: do we reali need bakkies, give Elstadt, flip van der merve and Eben a chance. or pick johan muller
3 Sep 2012, 17:52 pm
@thesaint-116:
Hamlet, actually.
3 Sep 2012, 18:40 pm
Shakespeare nazi threadstopper
3 Sep 2012, 18:58 pm
@Dawn-120:
Is this a dagga that see before me?
3 Sep 2012, 19:05 pm
@David-121: I am agreed, and would I had given him the best horse in Padua to begin his wooing that would thoroughly woo her, wed her, and bed her, and rid the house of her
3 Sep 2012, 19:07 pm
Dawn doesn’t touch the stuff.
Grouse only.
3 Sep 2012, 19:15 pm
@Heavens Game-122:
Shrewd comment, although a little tame.
3 Sep 2012, 19:19 pm
@gunther-123:
The Scottish tragedy?
3 Sep 2012, 19:20 pm
:lol.
3 Sep 2012, 19:28 pm
@David-124: Hehe… Bait the hook well; this fish will bite. Much ado about farkall…
3 Sep 2012, 19:33 pm
keo’s just a bitter beck.. if it perchance it had been his vloer vreting bulletjies that smacked Province by 5 tries to zip a complete different scenario and braggadocio on top of bravado would have been gushing from his mushy mouse.
3 Sep 2012, 19:36 pm
@Heavens Game-127:
A ruse by any other name.
3 Sep 2012, 19:45 pm
@David-129: Romeo, doff thy name… Ban, Ban, Cacaliban… and beest a good moon calf
3 Sep 2012, 19:49 pm
119 – Nope, Macbeth… trust me.
3 Sep 2012, 20:03 pm
Big momma gonna bring the hurt down on to you boys.
3 Sep 2012, 20:34 pm
@KEO
Remember when all the Springboks came back and played in the currie cup semi final against the LIONS?
Your tweet was “Bye Bye Lions” – Jou dag en nag praatjies verskil baie.
And the Lions beat full strength super 15 sides.
And now that the Bulls aren’t performing you are looking for excuses.
If the Bulls had all the injuries the Lions had, they would’ve played with this very same currie cup side in the S15 – Please respond – you just a big WP/Lions hater
3 Sep 2012, 20:38 pm
Can’t wait for the Bulls to be raped in the s15 next year
3 Sep 2012, 20:53 pm
@thesaint-131:
You’re quite right.
3 Sep 2012, 21:00 pm
So in other words KEO says give the bulls a chance just like with Heyneke Meyer who lost 11/11 in the 2002 S12. It is ok for the bulls to lose all their matches, because its the bulls any excuse for them
3 Sep 2012, 21:35 pm
Alas poor Yorick
4 Sep 2012, 06:46 am
@Dawn-137:
Unsex me here
4 Sep 2012, 06:49 am
An article by Keo titled Don’t Fool Yourselves. Oh the irony.
4 Sep 2012, 07:23 am
Wp beat a bulls side 42-6 who the previous week beat a sharks side who klapped everyone! This win for wp was unexpected and it needs to be appluaded.
4 Sep 2012, 09:10 am
Ja wp played the rugby that made them stormers on saturday…. Apart from that… Players abroad who could have helped us just for this championship is
15-fsteyn
14-pietersen
13-jfourie-japan
12-jde villiers
11-habana
10-msteyn
9-du preez-japan
8-spies
7-alberts
6-louw-england
5-muller-ireland
4-rossouw-japan
3-j du plessis
2-britz/botha-eng/fra
1-steenkamp-france
7 capable players who could have eased the young ones for the eoyt… It is a shame if heineke couldn’t thought it out like this
4 Sep 2012, 09:11 am
@The truth-134: Jy gaan n rukkie langer moet wag ou bees.
A year back it was said on this side we would be cornholed this year and we made the playoffs with a very inexperienced side. how the fark do you reckon we’ll be ghoened next year…….The truth is ek dink jou kop is vol kak
4 Sep 2012, 09:12 am
@Sasuke-140: Indeed Sasuke. We got moerred hard Saturday by a superior team on the day. But as I said yesterday this young Bulls team cannot be written off just yet.
Well done to your team.
4 Sep 2012, 09:37 am
I watched the game again last night and I feel maybe part of the problem is that the Bulls players did not seem as committed as the WP one’s. There is not much separating the players and some of the Bulls backline players are future starts like Serfontein but the likes of JJ and Sadie looked out of sorts. They made very basic errors like forward passes and missed tackles.
The thing is , you can have all the talent in the world but if the attitude is wrong you might as well pack up , just ask Gaffie.
Having said all that , I must admit it was pleasant to watch vintage WP rugby. We may not have won the so called second rated CC yet but it sure will remain a highlight for me in what was a dull boring rugby year from a Cape rugby perspective.
4 Sep 2012, 09:42 am
@KWAGGA ROBERTSE-143: I agree , however the Bulls seriously need to find their own future stars. Little boys like the great Joost who grew up dreaming to play for them. Guys who breathed and lived BB rugby, I believe Joost was even a ball boy as a youngster. You just have to hear how the likes of JP Du Plesis talk about playing for WP against the Bulls at Newlands , its a boyhood dream for him.
The passion is just not there , I know its a professional era but I do feel it makes a huge diffs. Even the Bulls Captain on the night dreamt of playing for WP.
4 Sep 2012, 09:45 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl-45:
Not sure why this event keeps getting brought up like a vrot fish. Everyone knows there is a low class level in Newlands at every game.
But since you feel the need to bring this up, why dont you also high light the booing of Percy Montgomery, in BOK colours, being booed at Loftus, during a springbok game?
Classy, real classy.
4 Sep 2012, 12:29 pm
And yet, in SA you can go from the CC B division, which is an elevator ride down from the CC A division, and step into the big world of Super Rugby and keo will be just fine with that.
Wonder who’s fooling who?
4 Sep 2012, 12:31 pm
@Paws-147: what from CC B Division to Test Rugby in a matter of less than 8 Super Rugby games!
Pottie is a LEGEND!
4 Sep 2012, 12:41 pm
Pottie was lucky because of injuries to others and a game plan that fits his ‘strength’ … had a good run in SR, but test rugby a step too far.
That is just one player … how about a whole team, that is not really a team yet getting a free ride, and keo is all for it …. mmmmmm king keo.
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