SA’s ailing asset
18 Sep 2012
RYAN VREDE writes the Currie Cup has completely lost its prestige and is now no more than a platform for some young players to stake a claim for a Super Rugby contract.
I’ve watched every round of the tournament and have been completely uninspired. Certainly there are a handful of promising young players emerging, but overall the standard is decidedly mediocre for what used to be South Africa’s showpiece tournament. This of course has been the case for some time, but the quality on offer in 2012 is the lowest it has been in years, even with the current six-team format.
South Africans often boast of their bountiful player resources. This country is undoubtedly blessed in that regard, by quantity doesn’t translate to quality if the Currie Cup is an indication.
The quality will rise in the closing rounds of the league phase when the Springboks return and reach its climax in the playoffs. This is what South Africans will have to become used to – two and a half months of mediocrity followed by an injection of quality for a couple of weeks.
An extended Super Rugby tournament has contributed in part to this. The wizards at the South African Rugby Union who negotiated the Super Rugby deal did so at the expense of the world’s oldest domestic competition. This made financial sense to them, of course, as there was more cash to be made from broadcasting revenue and commercial opportunities that arose from Super Rugby than there were for the Currie Cup. Australia, with no domestic competition to rival South Africa or New Zealand, shafted their partners in the negotiation and emerged as the big winner, with more Australia derbies and a guaranteed team in the play-offs despite having the weakest conference.
More teams will be accommodated in Super Rugby in 2015, which is likely to mean the tournament cutting deeper into August. Where will that leave the Currie Cup? Will we see a one-round, five match league phase followed by semi-finals and a final? It would certainly heighten the stakes and make for more entertaining viewing, albeit not because of the quality of the product. Some club-standard players will continue to give their mates reason to toast with their TV cameos, when those players should have been watching from their couches. But this is what the Currie Cup has become – the playground of the ordinary.
There is no immediate solution on the horizon. There is no way Sanzar will trim Super Rugby to pit only the very best teams against each other and in so doing reducing the time it takes to complete the tournament. In an ideal world I’d have a Super 10 that starts in early February and finishes 11 weeks later, with a one-round, six-team Currie Cup commencing thereafter. If, for example, Western Province host the Sharks in 2012, they will travel to Kings Park in 2013.
This would allow Springboks players to compete in the Currie Cup before the June Tests. The game’s most important assets – the players and supporters – win, with a higher quality product and roughly the same amount of game time.
This is a pipe dream. The tournament that was once the pride of a nation is being reduced to rubble, serving as no more than an opportunity for aspirant young bucks to impress their coaches. So sad.
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614 Comments
18 Sep 2012, 08:36 am
I also watch emotionally unattached just hoping to spot the youngsters that may make it in Superrugby.
18 Sep 2012, 08:37 am
Talking shyyyt, Dragon!!!!!
18 Sep 2012, 08:37 am
Bitter dragon
. Just because the Lions are doing well. I bet any South African rugby player will experience more emotion winning the Currie Cup than Super Rugby.
18 Sep 2012, 08:40 am
Was the standard any higher when the Bulls were sweeping everything aside or when the Lions won it last year in a RWC year?, suddenly when it’s highly likely that the Bulls are going for promotion/relegation game against the the Kings, now the standard is poor, nonsense I say.
This currie cup has proved a defining moment for WP, no more Duvenage wasting our ball, Groom is here
18 Sep 2012, 08:44 am
Divide the Super Rugby into domestic and international phases.
Call the domestic phase the Currie Cup top 6 unions to play.
Top 3 teams on the log play the top 3 teams from Oz and New Zealand.
Players get a decent break between the RC and the EOYT.
18 Sep 2012, 08:47 am
@gunther-5: I find it strange that last year I was the lone voice in saying the CC mustn’t be played in a RWC year, that a new competition played every 4 years is commenced.
18 Sep 2012, 08:51 am
@XhosaKid-6:
WC year or not.
It doesn’t matter.
Besides you were just sad that the Lions put your Bok laden stormers team out on its ***.
There is a pdivvie quota thread.
I’ll see you there.
18 Sep 2012, 08:56 am
@gunther-7: PDV quota thread??, BTW, I called for the new “Challege Cup” long before the Lions or any team made it to the play-offs, who won the CC in 2007?, I suspect that Bulls will be winning the 2015 ” Challenge Cup”
18 Sep 2012, 08:58 am
@Lions_Soutie-3:
agreed.
i am reinvesting my emotions right back into the cc and salute the lions efforts so far, since last season and this season, which is pretty good by them considering the kak going on behind the scenes.
am working on proposals to make to the unions and saru with ideas on geeting the crowds back to a wonderful comp.
18 Sep 2012, 09:07 am
The window to play the currie cup is getting smaller and soon superrugby will kill it.
The small unions will be the big losers, fark them, those amateur schmucks will get what is coming to them – death by lack of funding.
As long as the big city unions are there to plunder and rape the small guys (and each other) and play top class rugby who cares about the Currie Cup – it will probably be incorporated into superrugby.
18 Sep 2012, 09:28 am
S15 can be amended so that the two leg derby rounds are completed before the inter-conference leg begins. This will be the new Currie Cup, with full strength squads & points earned also count toward the S15 log (to prevent teams from resting players)
18 Sep 2012, 09:33 am
Have to blame saru here, they sold our beloved currie cup down the river. Super Rugby is way, way too long should only ever be 12 teams and really should be completed by end of May. That way our players would be ready for Test Rugby, rested and prepared. We would have a far better Currie Cup as well. This time of year our Test Rugby should have been completed already, with Bok players returning to Currie Cup and the excitement would only really be starting now. Instead our Currie Cup is looking more like a Vodacom Cup, that is a shame, the best and oldest domestic competition ruined by saru’s greed.
18 Sep 2012, 09:35 am
Lets be clear about this……I cannot remember the Bulls being as rubbish, which is even more worrying as the CC is completely kak.
some oke above posted that SA players would be happier to win the CC than the superrugby trophy.
what absolute shite.
The Bulls on their CC charge of 2002 – included many boks with the superrugby and trinations both being shorter competitions. Hell, even the bulls 2009 win vs cheetahs was a test match calibre starting 15 on the park.
how does the promotion/relegation actually work anyway? Is there a play off game? not that I really care because player wise there is a huge bonus to not being on form and in the CC 1st division. Basically, none of your players will get selected for the end of year tour which gives your entire squad a proper rest and recuperration period before superrugby.
As I see it, being relegated buys your union almost 2 seasons of good player management….obviously the union loses some cash but then, I did say BUYS you time.
18 Sep 2012, 09:37 am
If it is the integrity of the currie cup that needs saving, by that I mean a tournament featuring springboks.
Then I would like to see an FA cup-style straight knockout competition played between the RC & EOYT(october).
But I would also like to add that I personally have enjoyed the currie cup more than any other tournament the last couple of years.
I enjoy clubstandard players, as Ryan calls them, playing with a hell of a lot more passion than some capped springboks.
I like it when some these young guns make some supposed superstars look silly .
I enjoy it just as much when these young guns get schooled by an experienced player.
The CC has got it all and if you cant see that Ryan, then why are you even watching?
18 Sep 2012, 09:40 am
Are the Boks playing in the currie cup this year? The last Bok game is on the 6 October. The last currie cup game if I am not mistaken is 13th October. Not enough time for them to fit in.
18 Sep 2012, 09:40 am
What is Ryan Vrede talking about, the Blue Bulls v Griquas match on Saturday was far more entertaining then the Dunedin fiasco where mediocrity truly shone.
18 Sep 2012, 09:55 am
Lions and Sharks sitting level points at the top of the CC like last year… And suddenly the standard is “ordinary”… Why?
Is it maybe because the North South “Traditional Powers” of SA rugby not ruling the roost with their one two mortarbomb or no try game respectively ?
I think so.
CC this year has been intriguing, with any team being able to beat the other on any given Saturday. A good competition so far.
18 Sep 2012, 09:57 am
@RL-10:
not on my watch.
18 Sep 2012, 10:07 am
i have thoroughly enjoyed watching the cc this year.
seriaas.
and i will watch it every weekend because i am not of the belief that the fringe boks or young talents that we see in the cc are deserving of the bs that ryan spins.
ffs, there are about 30 players missing from the cc and suddenly the 200 or so playing in the cc are k u k?
what a load of sh it.
probably ryans sour grapes because the wp thugs were soundly beaten on the weekend.
18 Sep 2012, 10:07 am
RYAN VREDE writes the Currie Cup has completely lost it’s prestige and is now no more than a platform for some young players to stake a claim for a Super Rugby contract.
And it took you 8 years to figure this out?
18 Sep 2012, 10:09 am
Come on boys….the lions are doing well and winning games.
that is the complete opposite to their superrugby form.
that says everything withregards to the standard of their CC.
sure, enjoy the competition and the wins.
But do not confuse that with the calibre of player and rugby on offer.
18 Sep 2012, 10:11 am
@rangerman-19:
you need to take into account the number of players out injured as well after superrugby.
I’d say that there is closer to 50-60 quality players out.
18 Sep 2012, 10:12 am
Vrede you talk KAK my man. You are just p*ssed because YOUR team are looking staid, devoid of ideas and being blown to pieces.
The CC has been FAR more entertiaing than a large portion of the S15 this year AND 90% of the Sprinbok efforts to date. To see real, skillful backline play, attacking intent and even offloads! It is heaven watching the CC compared to the Boks at the moment. Granted defence seems less of a concern for a lot of the teams but if that is the common failing, then so be it. It still makes for much more entertaining rugby, when a team is concerned with scoring NOT praying for a penalty to sneak a win or a draw.
I do agree that CC has been shafted by SARU but to denigrate the players is, frankly, ludicrous. The majority of those playing CC now played in THIS YEAR’s S15 (injuries to a crop of the latter notwithstanding), how are they all useless youngsters all of a sudden? (Jantjies, Daniel, Deysel, Ndugane Twins, Brussow, Coenie, Taute, VERMEULEN, Ludik etc. etc.). The injection of 22 Springboks will NOT change the quality of the entire tournament… if that was the case how did the LIons WIN it last year, with the knock-out stages populated with all the returning Springboks?
Ryan stop conflating your rage at having a poor CC team with a slip in standards of this WONDERFUL, though severely trimmed down tournament. The fact that the crowds have been poor says nothing of the quality of play and everything about the complete OVERLOAD of rugby we have at the moment…. S15 attendance this year was also DOWN in SA and if the Boks continue on their dour path, expect less than full stadiums next year too.
18 Sep 2012, 10:17 am
@rangerman-19: Thugs is the right word… For too long, the Bulls and Stormers have been getting away with these “intimidation” tactics (nothing more than cowardly dumfck play) by SA refs in Super rugby and CC… For once refs/linesmen acted on this… The result – 15 men against 12… When last did any team have 3 men sent off? A farken disgrace…
This “traditoinal” ref leniency to the “traditional powers” is a real cause of the fckups at Test level as Greyling so clearly demonstrated on the weekend… But what Greyling did was nothing out of the ordinary that he and the other 8 of his mates, as well as the 8 from the other Southern “traditional power” get away with week in and week out in Super rugby and CC when reffed by SA refs.
A level playing field and less one eye in refs results in these disgraces we see.
18 Sep 2012, 10:21 am
@rangerman-19:
agreed, absolutely. its been great and has seen some classy matches to date.
as frustratinog as the bulls have been in some of their crappier games they’ve also played some really exciting rugby in their better matches.
and i would say goes across the board for all the unions with griekwas especially putting in a fairytale effort. if anything i would like to see the premier division increased to an 8 or 10 team format.
18 Sep 2012, 10:22 am
@Heavens Game-17:
agreed.
its quality and is in fact far from decided yet.
18 Sep 2012, 10:23 am
@PissAnt-20: There is a direct correlation between Vrede’s sudden moment of clraity and the Bulls demise, in fact I would hasten to say its perfect R or rather -1
18 Sep 2012, 10:23 am
@Rooibaard2000-23:
again, i agree.
18 Sep 2012, 10:24 am
The Currie Cup is the NZ equivalent to the ITM Cup as far as I can tell.
You may argue it is more important, has more depth, has better standards yadda yada yada.
But it is at the end of the day, a provincial competition that employs players with skills generally below the standard required at S15 level.
It does not mean the Rugby being played is less enjoyable for fans. If anything the games can be more exciting, because the level of defense is less honed and more things happen.
The ITM Cup has a place and long may it last, but it will never ever be the old NPC, which is the ITM Cup by a different name.
The Currie Cup will continue, but at a different level from what it was 20 years ago. Unlike running boards on cars which disappeared through irrelevance.
18 Sep 2012, 10:25 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl-21: Especially the “calibre of player and rugby on offer” from the Bulls?
The calibre of rugby is pretty damn good, and certainly a lot more imaginative and watchable than calibre shown by the Boks since a couple of separate halves against England now long ago.
18 Sep 2012, 10:31 am
@XhosaKid-27:
ryan is not a bulls supporter.
18 Sep 2012, 10:31 am
@Brads-29:
exactly
@Heavens Game-30:
wrong, the enjoyment level is good….the calibre is shite.
18 Sep 2012, 10:36 am
@Brads-29: What you say demonstrates the difference between Currie Cup and the NZ domestic competition already… The fact that the NPC has changed name to the ITM Cup indicates that it is not as valued in NZ as the CC is in SA…
The ITM/NPC might be the next level down to Super rugby in NZ like the CC in SA, BUT the ITM cup is NOTHING like the Currie Cup in terms of its value for respective supporters in terms of tradition or rivalry… The CC is peerless in this regard and long may it continue.
You might have an ABSA placed before the CC, but I doubt the Currie Cup will be replaced with any sponsor name…
It is highly valued contrary to what some fool writers might put down in a sudden itch on a blog, or how ANZACs now value domestic comps… Not very much in comparison.
18 Sep 2012, 10:40 am
@XhosaKid-27:
Well obviously he is not aware that the CC viewership numbers for 2012 is actually up from 2011…
18 Sep 2012, 10:45 am
I reckon if we didn’t have Super Rugby and just had the Varsity Cup, Vodacom Cup and Currie Cup domestically and the Incoming Tour, Rugby Championship and the EOYT our game would improve tenfold.
How I miss the hype around the Currie Cup Semi and Final.
18 Sep 2012, 10:45 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl-32: I say wrong again… That is illogical.
Both Cheetahs and Lions are the same sides nearly who played Super Rugby. Griquas have lifted their level to compete… Sharks and WP have a few Super rugby players probably better than a couple of current Boks and decent youngsters coming through…
And the fabled Bulls depth packed with up and coming players who not so long ago were touted as Bok options such as Stander, Serfontein and even Brummer…
And yet you say the calibre is shy.te…?
Irrational.
I suspect the “shy.teness” of calibre is directly proportional to the Bulls position on the log more than anything else.
18 Sep 2012, 10:46 am
@Heavens Game-33:
What utter tosh.
Yes, the “Currie Cup” may never disappear, but you do not have the vision or farsighted gifts to know that the name will never change to the Coca Cola Currie Cup, Panasonic Currie Cup or God Knows what Currie Cup.
The name doesn’t make the competition.
But I will say this here and now.
The Currie Cup is the Premier domestic competition in SA.
It is however the 3rd tier of rugby played in SA.
18 Sep 2012, 10:49 am
@Rooibaard2000-23: Good post… And the enthusiasm for the CC by many SA supporters and its importance to SA should anger everyone that much more about SARUs willingness to sacrifice it on the altar of ANZAC expediency.
18 Sep 2012, 10:51 am
@Jeraldjay-35:
Where are these incoming tours supposed to come from.
Kenya, japan, Cook Islands….
All the top teams are already committed.
SA can’t operate in isolation of the rest of the Rugby world, cherry picking the best from the past and what is working today.
18 Sep 2012, 10:55 am
@Brads-37: My point was that the name CURRIE CUP will never be dropped… It is too important to SA rugby fans for that… Sponsors too like the association with a century old brand…
In comparison there is what? NPC, now ITM?
NOT even close to THE Currie Cup chap… You sometimes myopic Kiwis dont realise how much more important the CC is to SA supporters than the NPC/Whatever new name or whatever the Aussies may have.
It irritates honest supporters to have you fools even compare them… In some ways the CC can be more important than Super Rugby, especially the Semis and Final…
There is probably more rivalry there than half a season of Super Rugby put together…
18 Sep 2012, 10:57 am
@Brads-39:
The Incoming tour will come from one of the 6 nations as it does every year during June.
18 Sep 2012, 10:57 am
@Jeraldjay-35: The Currie Cup semis and final are still hyped… Its just that certain teams havent reached the final for a such long long time for some supporters to actually remember it.
18 Sep 2012, 10:59 am
@Heavens Game-38:
You are missing the point here.
If all the good innovative Rugby on display in the Currie Cup is not being picked up by South Africa’s S15 franchises, why is that the fault of the S15 competition.
You appear to be suggesting SA would be better off withdrawing from the S15 and muster their attack on the RC from the CC competition alone?
Is that your stance?
18 Sep 2012, 11:01 am
So the CC is fine and healthy as long as it’s all about the WP Blou Bulle rivalry? As soon as they falter, it’s gone down the drain?
This site needs to diversify its “writing” talent, and if that means retrenchments then so be it.
18 Sep 2012, 11:04 am
@Heavens Game-42:
Was at the Currie final at Kings Park in 2000.
I remember that game quite fondly even though its 12 years ago.
18 Sep 2012, 11:05 am
@Heavens Game-40:
So you are saying the name will never ever ever be prefaced by the name of a sponsor.
18 Sep 2012, 11:09 am
@Brads-43: No… You are being ridiculous and totally missing my point…
Let me be explicit: The Currie Cup is more important to Saffas than the Domestic comps of both Aus and NZ ot their supporters…
The passionate rivalry and naked provincialism of the Currie Cup is unrivalled… Still.
This provincialism can be a weakness for SA as demonstrated by Meyer giving more leeway to players he knows intimately from the Bulls setup over more in form and possibly superior players from other Provinces.
However this rivalry can also be a strength.
Now try see past your All Black obsessed myopia and realise that Rugby in some other countries is not just about the National Side or Super Rugby “franchises”… If not, then stop disrespecting the Currie Cup with a legacy and tradition stretching back more than a century.
18 Sep 2012, 11:10 am
@Brads-46: Chrissakes…
18 Sep 2012, 11:11 am
@Jeraldjay-41:
So mid year tours by 6N teams for 3 or 4 weeks, and back to S15 is good for you?.
While Aus, NZ, Arg etc battle it out at a level of magnitude above CC level.
That is like forced isolation in reverse.
18 Sep 2012, 11:12 am
@Jeraldjay-45:
… Good man
18 Sep 2012, 11:17 am
@Heavens Game-47:
Waving your arms in the air and shouting about tradition does not improve the quality of the game being played.
But that aside, where have I dismissed the Currie Cup as being unimportant or irrelevant, or non deserving of continued passion by their respective teams supporters.
Your accusation of me being myopic is a disgraceful, glass houses my friend, glass houses.
Read my bloody posts in full before responding.
18 Sep 2012, 11:17 am
@Brads-49:
Please read #35 again.
I said if SA franchises wasn’t involved in the Super Rugby tournament and just focused on our domestic competitions as well as the current international ones, this would improve Bok rugby.
18 Sep 2012, 11:21 am
@Brads-51: Not worthy of a response because clearly you have no idea what you are talking about when pontificating from NZ about the Currie Cup.
18 Sep 2012, 11:24 am
@PissAnt-34: any news ony the possible NH comp to replace superrugby – that will really get our kiwis rattled.
18 Sep 2012, 11:27 am
@Jeraldjay-52:
Well I will ignore he hyperbole of a tenfold improvement, but I get your drift and agree I interpreted your post incorrectly.
But really, you suggest the Currie Cup alone, in isolation of any other SH competition, will produce a better Bokke team to challenge for the RC.
18 Sep 2012, 11:28 am
@Heavens Game-53:
Not worthy of a response, but yet you still did.
18 Sep 2012, 11:35 am
@RL-54:
It is not going to happen, well not soon anycase.
There is massive amounts of money being thrown around in broadcasting deals in Europe at the moment around which competition structures are currently discussed. Unfortunately SA is not part of those discussions at all.
The England Clubs have threatened the ERC that they are going to pull out of the Heineken Cup, and it looks very likely this will happen. If SA is looking to get into NH competitions they should be talking to the English clubs right now. But they are not.
18 Sep 2012, 11:35 am
@Brads-55:
(1). Less player fatigue (but the intensity will still be at its optimum level)
(2). We will be able to understand our gameplan i.e. what works and what doesn’t cause the format is more focused.
(3). Each game is essentially a trial so the best players will be selected.
18 Sep 2012, 11:44 am
@Jeraldjay-58:
Can not agree less.
The AB’s circa 1987 were the best team NZ had produced since the glory days of the mid 1960′s.
The less than impressive outfit that fronted the Bokke on Saturday would still put that team away by 30 points plus.
Why? Because the game has moved on, pure and simple.
To compete with the pack you need to be running with the pack.
Which is half the reason why the NH game is so weak at Test level.
18 Sep 2012, 11:53 am
@Brads-59:
We would still be running with the pack by playing in the RC.
But this debate is futile ’cause Super Rugby is SA Rugby’s bread and butter in terms of TV rights.
Was just playing Devil’s advocate.
18 Sep 2012, 12:04 pm
@PissAnt-57: well then kiss the CC goodbye – 2016 it ends.
18 Sep 2012, 12:08 pm
Brads
dont worry about the fckwit that is HG
He is old school, and his attitudes still reflect those of someone pining for the isolation years, whereby all they had was the CC, so of course it is important to the drunk old tjoppie..
he belittles our national comp on what basis? because it is his huge ego that is still firmly entrenched in the superiority aspect that has plagued SA society for so long…
both comps have huge history and tradition, we renamed ours because we dont have the same market size as them, simple economics…
the ITM cup is the comp that consistently provides the world with players that form a team that maintains an 80% win ratio, a team that has almost since its inception, held the number one ranking.. it is also the comp that has provided the players who have won 11 of 16 super titles, so let him continue with his belief that CC rugby is any more important than the ITM cup..
results speak for themselves..
18 Sep 2012, 12:10 pm
i will not kiss anything goodbye
18 Sep 2012, 12:20 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-63: Bakkies I notice you blowing kisses at players all the time – what is that about.
18 Sep 2012, 12:22 pm
@poppa69-62: What is old school?
I “belittled” your ITM, where?
Fuckoff with your lies and exaggerations, you farken poor git.
18 Sep 2012, 12:26 pm
@Heavens Game-65: If by old school you mean that I remember when Kiwi supporters were knowledgeable about the game past the myopic AB’s are all there is to rugby… When Kiwi supporters were excellent craic at a game unlike the modern day yobbos and football hooligan lite of today…
Then hell yeah… I’m old school.
18 Sep 2012, 12:29 pm
@Brads-59:
87 AB’s were an awesome Team Brads.
I agree, Teams from the Professional Era would generally cream any from the Amateur Era.
But what the AB’s of 87 did in the WC and the following few years make them one of the best AB sides of all time.
Many of the players have gone onto greater things in business, admin and coaching.
18 Sep 2012, 12:30 pm
There are times when I actually reckon Kiwi’s dont even like the game of rugby… With the constant need to change the game coming from ANZAC, and past the cult of the AB’s and their Haka, I reckon Kiwis deep down actually prefer other sports… like yachting.
18 Sep 2012, 12:34 pm
@Heavens Game-66:
You deride us every chance you get ………………………..then some.
Go Pontificate yourself.
18 Sep 2012, 12:37 pm
@cane-67: It’s a pity us saffa’s were not exposed to them more, I reckon the late 80′s and early nineties would have been very interesting in terms of Boks v AB’s. Just a pity the politcal climate did not allow it.
18 Sep 2012, 12:40 pm
@Heavens Game-68:
Oh we like sailing all right HG.
Also Cycling, Athletics, Rowing, Rugby League, Equestrian, Netball, Canoeing,………………………………………………………..even BMX.
And we have The Medals to prove it.
We are doers.
Not Pontificators. Like yourself.
18 Sep 2012, 12:44 pm
@cane-67:
The Boks also had a great team in 1987 Cane.
But lets not get into the could’ve, would’ve or should’ve.
18 Sep 2012, 12:46 pm
Brads
never tries to stir, he is giving his honest opinion, I would not dismit it at all – interesting observations from nz.
18 Sep 2012, 12:46 pm
@Skeppie-70:
They could have been “the best of times” for the rivalry Skeepie.
Starting from 87………………………………….NZ went 24 Tests without a loss.
18 Sep 2012, 12:49 pm
@Jeraldjay-72:
I never said you didn’t have a good team Jerry.
I only said we had an awesome team.
18 Sep 2012, 12:50 pm
@cab-73:
Brads is a straight shooter cab.
You got that right.
18 Sep 2012, 12:52 pm
@RL-64:
my love for the cc runs deep.
18 Sep 2012, 12:53 pm
@cane-74: Yup….we will claim victory over the cavaliers and you guys will claim early victories in 92/93…neither are 100% fair. Anyway we will never know but it would have been good to watch!
18 Sep 2012, 12:53 pm
@cane-75:
I know we discussed this before Cane but how many players from the Cavalier Tour played in the ’87 RWC.
Kirwan and Kirk didn’t tour but who else.
18 Sep 2012, 12:56 pm
@cane-69: @cane-71: I deride because you arrogant farkers deserve it and because I also see through the traditional rivalry claptrap… The rivalry is of yesteryear not the present…
And yes you do well in other sports like Saffas do… But my goodness Saffas generally appreciate rugby in a larger sense than Kiwis and their Adidas marketing gimmick called the ABs and there little unchallengeable “challenge”…
That is why Saffas still have a passion and rivalry in the CC unsurpassed by any domestic comp on the planet.
The Boks are important to all Saffa rugby supporters but their Province and the Currie Cup is important too…
Saffas generally also appreciate rugby in other countries and not just write it off as inferior…
Fark that, you fools are becoming more arrogant by the day on that self installed pedestal of yours… Every post reeks of it. One day soon someone gonna knock you straight off that infallible little AB/Haka is the be all and end all of rugby myopic perch…
18 Sep 2012, 13:00 pm
for me…..
Damn I want Stormers to win superrugby….
My Holy Grail now….
18 Sep 2012, 13:01 pm
Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows that that ’87 didn’t count
Everybody knows the Boks weren’t there
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The home team won, the ref got rich
That’s how it goes
Everybody knows
18 Sep 2012, 13:03 pm
The greatest AB team of the World Cup era, post 87, is beyond doubt the team of 95/96… They lost a World Cup yet went on a 17 game unbeaten run only equalled by the Mallets Boks…
That AB team would wipe the floor of any team today, including the current ABs and any team of 87, except the Boks of course, who farked up that AB class of 87 just the year before…
You farken Kiwis… What you actually dont know about rugger heritage past the current AB cult and Haka obsession is scary…
Disappointing actually.
18 Sep 2012, 13:09 pm
@grant10-81: Mark this post now… The Sharks, 5 time beaten Super rugby finalists, the best team never to have won Super Rugby will win the competition in 2013…
The trophy gonna come home to Kings Park and that is where it will visit for a few years this decade after the first final breakthrough…
Like 1990 onwards, the Johnny Come Latelies might get there late, but when they get there they gonna be there to stay…
18 Sep 2012, 13:12 pm
The Sharks are like Colin Montgomerie the Scot.
He was the best golfer never to win a Major.
18 Sep 2012, 13:14 pm
@Jeraldjay-85: And miserable and arrogant. So yes.
18 Sep 2012, 13:19 pm
@Heavens Game-80:
” I deride because you arrogant farkers deserve it ………..”
.
…
.
.
No HG.
You deride because you are an arse-whole.
A silver tongued eloquent arse-whole.
but an arse-whole just the same.
“One day soon someone gonna knock you …………………”.
Know doubt about that. But WTF. live for today.
18 Sep 2012, 13:20 pm
@katman-86:
Nick Faldo was just as miserable.
Happy to see McIlroy is changing the face of British golf.
18 Sep 2012, 13:21 pm
@Heavens Game-84: At it could be a double… Holders of CC and Super Rugby… At the same time.
Dynamite.
BOOM!
@Jeraldjay-85: Naah, prefer to think of them as the Super Rugby Buffalo Bills…
Non winners, chokers even at the highest level especially in 2007 when they were expected to win, dominated the game totally but lost, however an iconic Super rugby team nevertheless.
18 Sep 2012, 13:22 pm
@cane-87: Farken ignorant git.
18 Sep 2012, 13:22 pm
@Jeraldjay-88: Indeed, Faldo was a sour git as a player. He’s marginally better as a commentator.
I really enjoy watching McIlroy though, particularly when you puts Tiger in his place.
18 Sep 2012, 13:24 pm
@Heavens Game-89:
How different the SA Rugby landscape would have been if Frans slotted that kick.
I don’t even think HM would’ve been Bok coach today.
18 Sep 2012, 13:27 pm
@Jeraldjay-92: Sheezus… lets not go there. For all we know tricky dicky Muir might have ended up as Bok coach instead… Fark me, now that is a thought not worth thinking…
18 Sep 2012, 13:31 pm
hehe
kiwis taking it in shifts to defend their coutry’s honour on the interwebs
how cute
18 Sep 2012, 13:32 pm
@Jeraldjay-79:
Jerry, these players played in the 87 WC final. And were not Cavaliers:
John Gallagher. FB.
John Kirwin. wing.
Joe Stanley. Centre three quarter.
Capt. Kirk.
Micheal Jones. Flanker.
John Drake. Prop.
Sean Fitspatrick. Hooker.
Each of those 7 players would be a contender for the AB’s best Team EVER.
18 Sep 2012, 13:36 pm
@cane-95: Hmm cane but I don;t think they would all have started. Jones, Kirwin and Fitzpatrick were very young and not automatic choices….
18 Sep 2012, 13:38 pm
@Heavens Game-90:
” Farken ignorant git”.
You got that part right HG.
But at least I know it.
And here is the good part:
One day you will wake up and realise that I was right.
……………………………You are an Arse-whole.
18 Sep 2012, 13:41 pm
@cane-95:
Thanks Cane.
So these players missed out on an early retirement but had the honour of being World Cup Winners, which was a rare Kiwi achievement before 2011.
18 Sep 2012, 13:44 pm
@Skeppie-96:
They all started against France in the 87 WC final.
Along with the following money grabbing scum called The Cavaliers.
Craig Green.
W. Taylor.
G.Fox.
Buck Selford.
Gary and his Brother Whetton.
Murray Pierce.
and Steve McDowell.
18 Sep 2012, 13:48 pm
@cane-95: Lets look at your bullshit closely.
Cavaliers
FB… Cavaliers Kieran Crowley, Robbie Deans… Hardly inferior to Gallagher
Wing… Green was a 39 test AB… Fraser the Fijian Kiwi and Clamp… yes, Kirwan is a bit of an icon but the Cavalier wings were hardly light touches.
Centre… Pokere was an 18 test AB. Warwick Talor and a certain Wayne Smith were no slouches…
At half back, Kirk played 2nd fiddle to Loveridge who up till the Cavaliers tour was thought of as the best half back on the planet.
Actually many of the Cavaliers were no doubt superior to many of the players selected in 87…
Dont come with your lies and revisionism here…
18 Sep 2012, 13:48 pm
@cane-99: Ok but just because they started a year later does not automatically mean they would have made the team in 86. Also wasn’t there a bit of a clean out after the cavaliers (hence the term baby blacks) which would mean some cavaliers player where first choice players. Why do you consider the cavaliers scum?
18 Sep 2012, 13:52 pm
And if it were not for Andy Dalton’s soft jaw, exposed well and truly by the sweetest punch yet to be seen on a rugby field, Fitzpatrick may never have even seen the light of day as an AB hooker for a good few years after 87 yet…
18 Sep 2012, 13:54 pm
Nope, the Cavaliers would have fcked up the 87 team any day of the week. The 86 Boks would have too… Beyond a shadow of a doubt…
The real WC final was actually played a year before 87… In SA.
18 Sep 2012, 14:02 pm
@cane-99:
dalton?
at least you’re honest abot it cane.
its a history kiwis conveniently try to pr spin as the 87 team being void of any cavaliers ho hum heard poppa and bp try that line before.
just remember it forever reflects in history that the 86 boks farked the 87 rwc up six love.
18 Sep 2012, 14:05 pm
@Heavens Game-100:
One position at a time:
“FB… Cavaliers Kieran Crowley, Robbie Deans… Hardly inferior to Gallagher
WRONG…………………………………………Robbie and Kieran were not fit to polish the boots of Gallagher.
Wing… Green was a 39 test AB… Fraser the Fijian Kiwi and Clamp… yes, Kirwan is a bit of an icon but the Cavalier wings were hardly light touches.
Are any of those suckers now Sir Clampie or Sir Greenie.
I think not.
“Centre… Pokere was an 18 test AB. Warwick Taylor and a certain Wayne Smith were no slouches… ”
Well lets just say Wayne was a 10.
Loveridge was indeed a great player.
but so was Capt Kirk.
One great advantage these new AB’s had of course was “NEUTRAL REFEERES”.
And my,
how that facet of The Game changed SA fortunes.
Would you now like to move onto the forwards HG?
18 Sep 2012, 14:09 pm
@cane-105: Nobody is going to win this one….just one point though Cane, your comment on refs applies to 1981 as well, the Boks we properly robbbed by Clive Norling so it’s kinda swings and roundabouts isn’t it?
18 Sep 2012, 14:16 pm
@cane-105: Move to the forwards you farken ignorant git… Go for it.
For every Michael Jones there is a Cowboy Shaw…
18 Sep 2012, 14:16 pm
@Skeppie-101:
Skeepie:
I never watched a Boks/AB game from 1970 until reintroduction of the Boks into mainstream International Rugby.
I have never watched a Cavaliers game. Never will.
They were a Team brought and paid for by the regime in power in SA at the time. (under the auspices of some newspaper if memory serves me correctly).
If I had my way………………………none of the fukkers would ever have played rugby again.
18 Sep 2012, 14:19 pm
@cane-105: Still laughing at your endorsement of the Pom, Gallagher… Born Lewisham, England… Who went on to play Rugby League…
Yet he isn’t a “filthy money grabber”?
You confused Kiwi fuckwit… Honestly
18 Sep 2012, 14:22 pm
@Skeppie-106:
No……………………………………………….NZ won fair and square with Clive.
He was the first Ref to Officiate with a digital watch.
And so Alan Hewson kicked a legitimate penalty to win the game.
One of the great referees of all time.
DIGITAL.
18 Sep 2012, 14:24 pm
@cane-108: The reason I ask is I see them as AB’s desperate to test themselves aginst their old rival who they never got a chance to play because of political reasons.
18 Sep 2012, 14:25 pm
@cane-108:
Yellow Pages was the sponsor, a branch of Telkom a government parastatal.
18 Sep 2012, 14:25 pm
@cane-108: Self righteous, ignorant, arrogant cnut… All in a nutshell in this post…
Those Cavaliers were the best team New Zealand produced until the 95/96 team…
Yet you would see Meads, Kirkpatrick, Crowley, Deans, Smith etc to have been banished to oblivion…
Bang, there would have gone half your coaching expertise of this era… half your playing expertise of the last era… and bobs your uncle you would have been just another coconut rugby playing Pacific Island nation…
How farken apt.
18 Sep 2012, 14:25 pm
@cane-110: Nah Cane you are wrong there, Norling played something like 12 mins of extra time. Clearly he was influenced byt he political landscape. In 1981 the Boks were robbed and should have won the series.
18 Sep 2012, 14:29 pm
@cane-108: Come on, caner. If the cavaliers had won the series you’d be claiming them as beloved sons of your very own bosom here. But a 3-1 series loss kind of changes things, innit.
18 Sep 2012, 14:31 pm
@Heavens Game-109:
He (Gallagher) came to NZ as a Policeman. Was one of 5 Policemen in the Wellington Team of the time.
But whatever…………………………………..he was a truely great player.
The League Scouts rang up…………………………….So he said………….. “make me an offer I truely cannot refuse”.
So they did……………………….and he became rugby’s first million dollar man.
Gallagher became a millionaire,.
and you HG became an arse-whole.
18 Sep 2012, 14:32 pm
@katman-115:
I think NOT Katman.
18 Sep 2012, 14:33 pm
@cane-117: Therefore you are NOT, caner.
18 Sep 2012, 14:35 pm
The Currie Cup has been absolutely wonderful to watch .Some spectacular tries scored by the soon to be relegated LIons and other teams.How much more entertaining some of these games are with players running from everywhere rather than the crash ball S15 comp with suffocating rugby league type defences . if this is a poor standard , a third level comp Ryan , I say GIVE ME MORE OF IT. Perhaps if the Boks came to CC and saw how to run and attack they might learn something.Australia has nothing like this . The ARFU would give anything to have a comp like this .They tried a few years ago and it died in the bum.So preserve it, nurture it , respect it and it will serve SA rugby well.
18 Sep 2012, 14:35 pm
@Skeppie-114: .
believe what you will Skeppie.
I have told you the truth.
I can do no more.
18 Sep 2012, 14:37 pm
@katman-118:
To Not
or not to Not.
This is the question.
18 Sep 2012, 14:39 pm
@cane-116: A money grubbing millionaire… obviously… But nor really a successful millionaire at League…
Now a teacher… In England… Once a Pom, always one… And heralded as a great FB over true Kiwis who’s only sin was to want to test themselves against the best in the World circa 86…
A real hypocrite… But why am I not surprised… You are a Kiwi after all.
18 Sep 2012, 14:40 pm
How did Jebb Sinclair get off without even a one weeks ban after that punch on Deysel? Holmes gets one week ban. Who is the citing commissioner? What does that say to the rest of the rugby players, that you can punch and get away with it? Unbelievable really.
18 Sep 2012, 14:43 pm
@Puma-123: Laughable… Okes musn’t complain when the next Bulls or WP player gets sent off in a test match… Leniency like this feeds the filthy beast of “traditional powers” that be.
WHen last did a team land up with 3 players short due to filthy play? Disgraceful really…
18 Sep 2012, 14:45 pm
@cane-120: Ok Caner, let’s agree to disagree even you you are wrong and I am right. Is that fair?
18 Sep 2012, 14:46 pm
@Heavens Game-113:
“Self righteous, ignorant, arrogant cnut……………………”
LOL.
I would have refused those fukkers re-entry into NZ if I had my way HG.
You could have had them then. Along with Mitch and Carlos.
Would have been good for SA.
Because let’s face it…………………………you are slipping down the ladder sunshine.
18 Sep 2012, 14:47 pm
I don’t advocate violence on a rugby field,but Deysel deserved that fully.He tried it on with Sinclair and got beat fair and square.
18 Sep 2012, 14:48 pm
@Skeppie-125:
lol.
In real life we could get along Skeppie.
18 Sep 2012, 14:50 pm
@Heavens Game-124: Exactly. The mind just boggles how Sinclair was let off. Who the bloody hell was the citing commissioner? What a idiot whoever it is. Both should have copped a 2 week ban. This says it is okay to be a bloody thug. Disgraceful outcome really.
18 Sep 2012, 14:52 pm
you’re a poor mans poppa, cane.
have you been drinking?
18 Sep 2012, 14:52 pm
@cane-128: I agree! Don’t tell anyone but you seem like a proper rugby man. I would share a beer with you anyday….and then proceed to explain how far superior the boks are (smiley)
18 Sep 2012, 14:53 pm
@cane-126: Good… Nicely arrogant… Especially about a 2 bit invitational team who won a 2 bit invitational tournament masquerading as a World Cup… And nicely arrogant about winning a rigged comp last year…
Nevertheless that win last year finally gives you the privilege to call yourselves World Champs… after 24 yrs of waiting…
Enjoy it while it lasts…
Until another 24 pass and maybe you can earn that right again… This time try win away without the largesse of Paddy and Bryce to see you home…
18 Sep 2012, 14:54 pm
@Heavens Game-122: \
So Gallagher was of English heritage.
Where is the crime in that. Why does that make him less worthy of the TITLE “great’.
You xenophobic hypocrite.
Live with us,
play with us,
you are one of us.
18 Sep 2012, 14:56 pm
@Skeppie-114: We were robbed. In that last game that last penalty the ABs got should never have been.
That was a series we could have won, or it should have been drawn not lost.
18 Sep 2012, 14:59 pm
@Heavens Game-132:
Try this instead;
Nicely arrogant… Especially about a 2 bit invitational team (Cavaliers) who lost won a 2 bit invitational tournament masquerading as a test series.… And nicely arrogant about winning a rigged comp in 86.…
Go Phucck yourself HG.
loser.
18 Sep 2012, 15:00 pm
@Heavens Game-102: how unusual that Hg would think a kinghit from behind is a beauty of a punch..
what a gutless coward you and he are..
18 Sep 2012, 15:00 pm
@wnbb-127: He never tried it on Sinclair. I watched that game again last night. Deysel shoved Jebb that was it and then he got punched to the ground. Jebb should have got a 2 week ban and he got off totally except for the red card. Whoever the citing commissioner is must be a complete idiot. Is there not rules for punching? Thought a punch gets you two weeks. No way should a player get off for punching. We not back in the 70′s pal.
18 Sep 2012, 15:01 pm
@cane-133: Xenophobic hypocrite… Me? I have no problem with Gallagher being English… I just have a laugh at your hypocrisy regarding the superiority of Kiwi stock wrt rugby, especially when one of “your” greats of 87, wasn’t a Kiwi…
Maybe you, like all other arrogant Kiwis, got to open your Haka obsessed eyes and see that there is more to rugby than a black shirt with three white stripes on it.
Gallagher,a Pom, played for the ABs… Rawlinson, a Saffa, played for the ABs too…
Now whoosa hypocrite?
Yes, you Cane… And not a particularly silver tongued one either…
Kiwis…Everytime a coconut… Luv blogshagging you little sheepshaggers.
18 Sep 2012, 15:02 pm
@Puma-134:
No you were not robbed.
You lost. Under trying conditions for sure. But you lost, simple as.
18 Sep 2012, 15:03 pm
@cane-110: I know, imagine how much game time was lost in that test when a player was felled by a flour bomb? to think a ref would allow injury time to reflect a similar length of time back in play is absurd isnt it?
but its good to see Saffas still whinge about it, what is that, a 30 year ref whinge? puts our Barnes whinge to considerable shame
18 Sep 2012, 15:04 pm
@poppa69-136: HG is an ardent sharks supporter so clearly an upstanding citizen but I must agree with you Pops, that was the mother of all cheap shots
18 Sep 2012, 15:04 pm
@Puma-137: No,he tried to slap Jebb like a girly and ,rightly,got punished for that poor attempt.
18 Sep 2012, 15:05 pm
@poppa69-140: Ok so according to you guys the cavaliers were robbed by bias saffa refs but the 1981 boks were not robbed at all?
18 Sep 2012, 15:05 pm
@Heavens Game-138:
You mean like The Beast is one of yours?
You sad sad sad delusioned arse-whole.
18 Sep 2012, 15:07 pm
@Heavens Game-124: You know I can’t remember when last I saw 2 red cards and a yellow card given to a team. 3 players all off together…haha.
Had to laugh at the 5 man scrum against our 8. Everytime a penalty against them, we just said scrum……….hahaha. In the mud and dam like conditions..hahaha. They must have been moeg for sure.
Ag, think the boys all went for a beer after, but still think those that copped a red card should have had a two week ban. Homes picked up one week ban.
18 Sep 2012, 15:07 pm
@cane-135: @poppa69-136: Oh dear… the Natives getting a bit restless again
Ag, why dont you go do your little jig, otherwise known as a haka, to get rid of that dumbfck frustration where you obviously cant express yourselves properly otherwise…
Coward is as coward does… Cavaliers had ballas to defy everyone for their love of rugby to come take on the best at the time… They lost… But they had courage…
Cowards were the team of 87… Who ran scared of the team that beat their better brethren and at least half of them just the year before…
Thats a definition of cowardice… The “greats” of 87…
18 Sep 2012, 15:07 pm
@cane-139: notice in all these Worled cup discussions before SA were given the rigged world cup of 95, that hardly any mention is ever made of the 91 cup?
could that be because NZ lost? surely, if they are that upset about their own failings causing them to miss both tournaments, that there would be derision at both?
but its seemingly not the case…gots to love our Saffa brothers, they must save a fortune at the opthamologists, what with only having to buy monocles
18 Sep 2012, 15:09 pm
@Skeppie-143: I didnt see the cavalier series, it wasnt shown in NZ …like cane I would refuse to watch it even now
( and not because they lost)… the 81 series I was not a fan of either, for obvious reasons..
18 Sep 2012, 15:09 pm
Nobody gets robbed in a rugby game!You either win because you are good or lose because you are simply not good enough on that particular day.South Africans should just accept the fact that the Kiwis are their masters most of the time.
18 Sep 2012, 15:10 pm
@Puma-137: what was deysel’s hand doing in jebb’s face?
i loved how he fell like a sack of potatoes
18 Sep 2012, 15:10 pm
@poppa69-140:
fair and square.
they have no idea.
18 Sep 2012, 15:10 pm
@poppa69-147: Actually Pops you will find it’s because not being there to play our most respected rivals in 87 hurts more than the Aussie victory in 91….it’s a compliment to NZ actually.
18 Sep 2012, 15:11 pm
@Heavens Game-138: speaking of hypocrites, didnt Plumtree play 40 odd ist class games for his NZ province? yet you still claim hes natalian through and thorugh?
18 Sep 2012, 15:12 pm
@cane-144: Of course Beast is one of ours… Many Zimbos and Rhodesians have represented SA with pride… and generally SA has been proud of the Zimbos/Rhodesians playing for the Boks… Indeed you could make quite an excellent side made up of Bok Zimbos of the ages.
Not the same “pride” as NZ has for a “foreigner” playing for the ABs… A bit of an embarrassment for you arrogant lot. Hence the scramble to designate every PI in the team “NZ born”…
Hypocrites… The lot of you… But not surprising at all… Being a hypocrite seems to be a virtue for you sheepshagging coconut eaters.
18 Sep 2012, 15:13 pm
@wnbb-142: I saw a shove, put it on slow mo and it just looked like a shove to me. A punch though should get a ban and he never. Not sure what messesage that sends to the younger rugby players out there. Foul play like that should be punished and yes, give the red and ban him for two weeks as well. Need to stop that thuggery in its tracks.
Look I think the boys had a laugh after and a beer, but still those that punched have to be disciplined.
18 Sep 2012, 15:14 pm
@Puma-137: Wasn’t quite that simple, Puma. That was one of the longest maul scuffles I’ve seen, and it got more and more agro from both sides. Deysel was pretty close to decking him too, I reckon.
18 Sep 2012, 15:14 pm
“ja boys but listen you can go home after the series I have to live here” 5 rand prize for the first to guess this infamous quote.
18 Sep 2012, 15:14 pm
@poppa69-148: Thanks Poppa.It was sad to see Kiwis taking cash in total disregard to the greater good of humanity.
18 Sep 2012, 15:15 pm
@Puma-155: sorry typo – meant – message
18 Sep 2012, 15:16 pm
“”149.wnbb said:
18 Sep 2012, 15:09 pm
Nobody gets robbed in a rugby game!You either win because you are good or lose because you are simply not good enough on that particular day.South Africans should just accept the fact that the Kiwis are their masters most of the time”".
.
..
.
.
I don’t know who this wnbb is.
But he/she is wise beyond his/her young years.
18 Sep 2012, 15:17 pm
@poppa69-153: Of course he’s a Natalian… Like Fred Michalak… Like Mexted… Like La Croix… Like Mendez… Like the United Colours of Benetton, there are the United Colours of the Sharks…
Once a Shark always a Shark and Plum is a legendary Shark… He might have played some games in NZ, but I reckon he sees himself as a Shark first before anything else.
He was also a 7s Bok too…
Naah, Plum is a Shark through and through, despite his way forgotten past history… He became a playing legend at the Sharks in one of THE great Sharks sides… He may become a coaching legend Next year with a Sharks side with the potential to be one of the best.
Plums birthplace is merely incidental now after so much Sharks water passing under that long forgotten bridge.
18 Sep 2012, 15:17 pm
@Heavens Game-154: this beast you mean?
Notably, despite living in South Africa and representing the country internationally, Mtawarira was a Zimbabwean national until late June 2010
18 Sep 2012, 15:17 pm
@NZINCHINA-157: Some extra in Lord of the Rings?
18 Sep 2012, 15:17 pm
@NZINCHINA-157:
Mexted.
18 Sep 2012, 15:17 pm
@NZINCHINA-157:
Classic.
18 Sep 2012, 15:18 pm
only the holy
18 Sep 2012, 15:18 pm
@katman-156: Howzit Katman,
I watched that game again last night. Sure it went on for a bit, but Deysel never pnuched him. He may have wanted too, but never. He shoved him and then got punched to the ground.
Anyhow it is done, but Sinclair should have picked up a ban for it. He got off totally. What was the citing commissioner looking at? Holmes picked up a one week ban.
Crazy match actually playing in dam like conditions too. 5 man scrum for WP at the end. Had a chuckle there actually, with our 8 man scrum against their 5 man scrum. Also feet could not get any hold there in the mud. They must have been moeg for sure. Eventually we got the penalty try.
18 Sep 2012, 15:19 pm
hint 76′
18 Sep 2012, 15:19 pm
Plumtree was born on 16 July 1965 in Hawera, Taranaki. Although Plumtree and Lions coach John Mitchell were born and grew up in the same town, they only got to know one another later as players and coaches.[2][3] Plumtree attended Hawera High School from 1976 to 1980.[4]
Playing as a flanker in his native New Zealand, Plumtree represented Taranaki Rugby Football Union in New Zealand’s National Provincial Championship (NPC) for 40 games, starting in 1985. In 1989 he was selected to participate in trials for the All Black team.[5]
keep goign HG, this sure is fun
18 Sep 2012, 15:19 pm
@Puma-167: typo – punched
18 Sep 2012, 15:19 pm
@Puma-145: Yeah… They were dumb enough to get caught… And fark me if was too blatantly obvious not to get caught… They lost the plot… And good on the Sharks because they now know they definitely have the edge over them…
18 Sep 2012, 15:21 pm
@NZINCHINA-157: Ok so does this mean Kiwi’s have only ever been robbed by the refs andd the Boks have always gotten away with murder? Come on guys, you are rugby people, don’t act like one eyed children!
18 Sep 2012, 15:22 pm
@poppa69-169: Yes, and Plum represented the Sharks for 80-odd games… Not to mention his many games for Durban North Crusaders when Club rugby in Natal was at its pinnacle…
Lets tally up the numbers, Knobber… And while we at it, lets tally up your ignorant stupidity too… clearly a symptom of slight illiteratcy… no doubt.
18 Sep 2012, 15:23 pm
A medal for Cocopops, Cane and Wnbb
18 Sep 2012, 15:23 pm
give them nothing hg
18 Sep 2012, 15:23 pm
@Heavens Game-171: Yip we do. 4 from 5 this year….lol.
18 Sep 2012, 15:24 pm
@poppa69-162: Keep up… “Brave” chap…
You seem to be “bravely” in reverse at the moment…
18 Sep 2012, 15:24 pm
@Heavens Game-154: @<
Hey HG………………………………………….we got 60,000 van der muewes eligible for AB honours.
We are looking good.
18 Sep 2012, 15:25 pm
@Skeppie-172: I remember a story about a game in SA the ABs were playing, and apparently at the time the crowd behind the posts cheered when an AB kick was directed at the posts..
the ref blew that the kick missed because the crowd cheered, but it was the downtrodden/those kept undwer the nazi jackboot who apparently sat in those positions and they were actually cheering because the kick went over and the ABs would have won.
I am not sure of the year, early 70s I think..
18 Sep 2012, 15:26 pm
@Heavens Game-173: slight “illiteratcy”
oh my, hahahahahaha
18 Sep 2012, 15:28 pm
@wnbb-149: “Nobody gets robbed in a rugby game!You either win because you are good or lose because you are simply not good enough on that particular day.”
That is cetainly no what we heard after cardiff 2007…
do you recall the penalty stats that were rattled out of that “flawless” 2nd half by France?
18 Sep 2012, 15:28 pm
@poppa69-180: Glad you could spot it… Your google spellcheck must be quite fast…
18 Sep 2012, 15:28 pm
@Heavens Game-177: you’re the one claiming Beast was S African, when he was clearly a Zimbo national until June 2010?
classic… but continue, you sure are outsmarting me mate, how can I compete with such stupidity?
its bakkies-esque in its totality..
18 Sep 2012, 15:29 pm
@shooter-174:
Now Shooter, here is short leason in history:
WE Never started any of this.
18 Sep 2012, 15:29 pm
@poppa69-169: Poppa,
We look on Plum as one of our own now. He has been in Natal for years on and off. Came off the bench too in 1990 in our first Currie Cup we won. He was part of that team and of Natal now Sharks great 90′s success. He goes way back for us. He is also married to a saffa lady. We claim him as our own now mate..lol.
18 Sep 2012, 15:30 pm
@cane-178: 60 000 Van de Meuwes?
so one might make it to be good enough to play for the ABs?
heaven knows the last one Rawlinson was complete and utter “once in a generation” Saffa special
18 Sep 2012, 15:31 pm
@Puma-167: I’m not condoning the punch, sweet as it was. I’m just saying they both were pretty angry at that stage. And if Jeb hadn’t pulled the trigger, I suspect Deysel would have.
18 Sep 2012, 15:31 pm
Okay catch up later. Work calls.
Cheers everyone.
18 Sep 2012, 15:31 pm
A former Auckland teammate and personal friend of Pat Lam says racism is nothing new in New Zealand rugby.
Peter Fatialofa, who played 72 games for Auckland from 1985 to 1993 and captained Samoa in the 1991 World Cup, said he had experience of racism when he was coaching the third-division King Country side in the early 2000s.
His comments come after Blues coach Pat Lam came close to tears in front of media yesterday, when he spoke of how racially-charged criticism had deeply upset his parents.
Fatialofa today recounted a player being racially abused by a spectator in the crowd. He said it was a difficult time for both the player and himself as coach.
18 Sep 2012, 15:31 pm
@cane-178: “van der muewes”… you mean van der merwes… great… so in about 10 yrs time when they do become eligible we look forward to Coach van der merwe of the ABs and Captain Vd Merwe of the AB’s leading them to the promised land of one-two-Moerthesky-Mortar bomb rugby…
Excellent… You can be as proud of them as you are of the “millionaire” Pom Gallagher
18 Sep 2012, 15:33 pm
“One of my players said he was frustrated playing for this team because he was getting abuse from the sideline,” Fatialofa said.
“I just had to tell him we’re here to do a job and if we win more games we’ll get more friends.” Fatialofa said there is racism in the sport, and players and coaches who are targeted just have to ignore it and focus on rugby.
“There are people who will take a cheap shot at you. The player got really frustrated.”
Fatialofa has also come out in support of Lam, whom he has known for more than twenty years. “Pat’s been through some tough times in his life,” Fatialofa said. “He’s committed himself to the Blues and he’s played so many games for Auckland. To see him react like that yesterday – I really felt sorry for him.”
“There’s got to be a barrier where you step back and say it’s just a game and it shouldn’t affect the family.” He also condemned the racist comments, saying social media was a “cheap way to throw a punch without them seeing it coming”.
18 Sep 2012, 15:33 pm
@cane-184: the world is young. the people are young. the last 100 years went by in a flash.
18 Sep 2012, 15:34 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-189: shock horror, racists in another part of the world, must have been an early SA immigrant I reckon… probably the very first of the Van de muewes
18 Sep 2012, 15:34 pm
@katman-187: Yeah they both were angry, just pleased Deysel kept his cool and discipline by not punching. He did shove but that was it. If Deysel did punch it might have got ugly.
Okay need to dash.
Catch up later.
18 Sep 2012, 15:35 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-191:
There are people who will take a cheap shot at you
sounds like you after every game involving a kiwi side bakkies..
18 Sep 2012, 15:35 pm
@poppa69-183: Poops… I am slightly worried for you…
Symptoms either of:
- naked lies
- retardation
- or slight illiteracy at the very least…
But all tinged with more than a bit of ignorance and not willing to read what you dont want to see…
Please point out where I claimed Beast as Saffa… Indeed I have explicitly stated in many posts that he is a born Zimbo…
18 Sep 2012, 15:35 pm
Samoan serial tweeter Eliota Fuimaono-Sapolu has slammed the racist rants directed at Blues coach Pat Lam in the wake of the team’s poor performances.
Fuimaono-Sapolu, who raised a storm with his tweeting during last year’s World Cup in New Zealand, voiced his opinion in his usual controversial manner.
The full tweet read: “F** NZ Rugby. We polynesians have made the All Blacks the best in the world for decades! F** it now! Represent your Island countries!”
18 Sep 2012, 15:36 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-191: Farken boohoo racists… Tears… Snot… trane
Everytime a coconut…
18 Sep 2012, 15:37 pm
@poppa69-193:
just a story for you to remember, pops.
you can recount it years later… like the kick that was ruled a miss…
18 Sep 2012, 15:37 pm
“ Of course Beast is one of ours… Many Zimbos and Rhodesians have represented SA with pride”
I cant understand your logic, how can they be “one of yours” if they are born in another country and play for your national side while carrying a different passport to every other team member?
18 Sep 2012, 15:37 pm
Fuimaono-Sapolu had earlier tweeted: “Not a fan of Pat Lam but reading racist taunts he & polynesian players receiving from NZ is not only f***** disgusting, its not surprising!”
18 Sep 2012, 15:39 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-197: do you really want to get into the whole racism fight? there are racists everywhere, NZ is not exempt from it, but unlike your country, it was not a systemised institution for 70 odd years…
18 Sep 2012, 15:40 pm
@Heavens Game-198:
she’s a feisty one
18 Sep 2012, 15:40 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-189: Ok,so we got racists and racism in other countries other than SA as well.Good,move on to the next subject please.
18 Sep 2012, 15:40 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-201:
Apartheid (lit. “aparthood”) (pronounced [uh-pahrt-heyt, [uh-pahrt-hahyt], ??p?rthe?t, -ha?t) is an Afrikaans[1] word for a system of racial segregation enforced through legislation by the National Party governments, who were the ruling party from 1948 to 1994, of South Africa, under which the rights of the majority black inhabitants of South Africa were curtailed and white supremacy and Afrikaner minority rule was maintained. Apartheid was developed after World War II by the Afrikaner-dominated National Party and Broederbond organizations and was practiced also in South West Africa, which was administered by South Africa under a League of Nations mandate (revoked in 1966 via United Nations Resolution 2145[2] ), until it gained independence as Namibia in 1990.[3]
Racial segregation in South Africa began in colonial times under Dutch[4] and British rule. However, apartheid as an official policy was introduced following the general election of 1948. New legislation classified inhabitants into four racial groups (“native”, “white”, “coloured”, and “Asian”),
this is fun bakkies
18 Sep 2012, 15:41 pm
@poppa69-200: Because Beast is a Bok… Like Skinstad… Garvie… Chavonga… Teichmann… Mordt… and many more.
You wouldn’t understand if you tried… Because why?
You are a myopic, insular Kiwi with no farken idea of the world and especially the world of rugger further than the Tasman sea…
18 Sep 2012, 15:42 pm
I must bid the the admirers of the great 87 cowards goodbye for now… til we meet again for a sordid repeat of your now regular blogsodomy…
18 Sep 2012, 15:43 pm
You hear it mostly (and especially in Auckland rugby circles) from ageing, white, narrow-minded rugby-heads, who probably still hanker for the times when you could call fish and chips a “Maori roast”, a ditch a “Maori drain”, and underarm deodorant a “Maori bath”. How they used to laugh. Now they’re getting old and can’t understand the world, poor blighters. ——————–
WHY DID the Auckland rugby team bomb this season? Too many Polynesian players in the critical, thinking positions, apparently. That’s what I’ve been told, anyway. Almost on a daily basis, come to think of it. Auckland were eliminated from the quarterfinals because they were an undisciplined, Pasifika rabble; Canterbury qualified because they realised how important it was to play the white boys where they were most needed.
18 Sep 2012, 15:44 pm
Richard Boock: She’ll be white, bro
18 Sep 2012, 15:44 pm
@Heavens Game-207: cowards? you mean the ones hiding behind an abhorrant legislation that had the ENTIRE World aghast and had enforced sanctions againt your country for a decade?
them cowards? or do you mean the cowards who lived that segregation for most of their lives?
please clarify, thanks
18 Sep 2012, 15:44 pm
I kid you not. An emailer last week sent a message (addressed to a who’s who of the rugby and media world), in which he unashamedly blamed Auckland’s dismal 2008 campaign on the continual selection of non-white players in the most crucial positions.
The team was doomed to fail, he wrote, because the brown brothers couldn’t read the game as well as the honkies. Let them range wide and use their speed, by all means, he said. But, for goodness sake, make sure some white brains were picked inside them.
It was the same with the tight five, apparently. Not enough of the old Anglo-Saxon yeoman; that stoic breed who enjoyed nothing more than dull, grinding, labour. Too much flashy, Islander stuff. When did Canterbury last field a team that didn’t have three or four Caucasians in the front and second rows?
Ditto for the Warriors: too few white New Zealand players in the decisive positions. I’m sure you’ve heard it before. It’s the on-going debate the rugby fraternity refuses to acknowledge. The “too many coconuts” syndrome.
18 Sep 2012, 15:46 pm
It remains the dirty little secret of New Zealand rugby. Racist British and European football fans tend to yell and chant their warped abuse at the ground on game day; Aussies favour hurling obscenities and/or missiles.
Over here it’s whispered among friends and behind backs, and rationalised into a language that attempts to deodorise the stench of the core message: that it’s OK to judge folk on the basis of race.
Maybe it’s time for the New Zealand Rugby Union to start up its own “it’s not OK” campaign, and pitch it at the main demograph of offenders the white, middle-aged to elderly, male, rugby supporter.
At least then they might have the good grace to feel embarrassed.
18 Sep 2012, 15:46 pm
@Heavens Game-190:
As long as Our “van der merwes” are better than your “van der merwes”.
Who gives a ******’s.
18 Sep 2012, 15:47 pm
Speaking of foreigners and their love for their adopted countries…
London – Kevin Pietersen admits he is disappointed to have been snubbed again by England after going to “great lengths” to broker a peace deal following the text message row that threatens to end his international career.
Pietersen has been in exile since sending text messages to South Africa players that contained derogatory reference to then England captain Andrew Strauss during the recent Test series.
With reports circulating that Pietersen had also fallen out with several of his team-mates as a result of his behaviour, the South Africa-born star was axed for the final Test, the subsequent one-day series, the current World Twenty20 tournament and now the forthcoming tour to India.
Pietersen met with Struass, who has since retired from all cricket, new England captain Alastair Cook, coach Andy Flower and members of the team hierarchy in a bid to resolve their issues and win back his place in the squad.
But the 32-year-old’s efforts have so far been in vain and, in a statement released by his management team just hours after the squad for the India tour was announced on Tuesday, he made it clear he had done everything possible to make amends for the controversy.
“Kevin Pietersen is naturally disappointed about today’s decision, having gone to great lengths to reach a reconciliation with the ECB,” the statement read.
“Pietersen has met with – and apologised to – Andrew Strauss. He has also met with Alastair Cook to stress his commitment to England and met with ECB board members, including face-to-face meetings with Hugh Morris, David Collier and Andy Flower, prior to his departure to Sri Lanka.
“At all times, Pietersen had wished his dealings with the ECB to remain private so as not to inflame an already difficult situation.
“His recent silence was not an admission of any wrong-doing; he wanted to explain and apologise to the ECB for the messages exchanged with members of the South African team.”
Pietersen insists he will continue to make himself available for international duty despite the latest snub and also moved to quash reports that he had given South Africa’s bowlers advice on the best ways to dismiss Strauss.
The statement continued: “Pietersen has also made absolutely clear both to the ECB and the England team that – despite unsubstantiated allegations to the contrary and repeated media speculation – he did not offer any tactical advice to the South Africans. Pietersen remains available for England.”
18 Sep 2012, 15:48 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-209: slippery slope bakkies, I can easily google many incidences of racism in SA if you want this to degenrate into a your country is muc h worse than mine debate
we all knwo tis true that your country leads the world in racial villification..
lets dance shall we?
18 Sep 2012, 15:48 pm
@poppa69-210: Thats it Poops… Move on from rugger… Talk about other stuff you seem to think you know about… Like AIDS or rape… and Aparthate…
Because sure as h.ell is probably nothing more than a vast soggy Kiwi rugby field you dont know very much about rugby… at all…
Other than probably a few words in Maori of that farken now ridiculous song about hairy men climbing a ladder
Dumbfuck
18 Sep 2012, 15:49 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-212:
It’s never been okay bakkies.
Never will be,
but scum exist.
18 Sep 2012, 15:50 pm
Back later Currie Cup supporters and AB illiterate ignorantlilly livers…
18 Sep 2012, 15:50 pm
@poppa69-215:
calm down cupcake, just returning a little serve…..
179.poppa69: Reply to this comment
18 Sep 2012, 15:25 pm
@Skeppie-172: I remember a story about a game in SA the ABs were playing, and apparently at the time the crowd behind the posts cheered when an AB kick was directed at the posts..
the ref blew that the kick missed because the crowd cheered, but it was the downtrodden/those kept undwer the nazi jackboot who apparently sat in those positions and they were actually cheering because the kick went over and the ABs would have won.
I am not sure of the year, early 70s I think..
18 Sep 2012, 15:50 pm
A racist video — featuring University of the Free State employees on their knees eating food that had been urinated upon — was widely condemned by various institutions and political parties on Wednesday. The video, made by members of the Reitz men’s residence on the Bloemfontein campus,
The video, made by members of the Reitz men’s residence on the Bloemfontein campus
It depicts a mock initiation of five black staff members—four females and a man—into hostel activities and refers to the university’s diversity policy for campus residences, which was announced last year.
18 Sep 2012, 15:51 pm
@Heavens Game-216: its your mate Bakkies going down the racism route mate… but remain blind to that, liek you did during the “golden years” huh?
18 Sep 2012, 15:52 pm
lets dance..?..
farken hillarious
18 Sep 2012, 15:52 pm
@katman-214:
Pieterson can go **** himself.
The ego has landed.
18 Sep 2012, 15:53 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-212:
The cut and paste king….
Sad man, very sad…
What’s the saying about people living in glass houses?
Get a live man
18 Sep 2012, 15:53 pm
@cane-217:
true, cane.
thats the lesson i tried to teach nzchina just a few posts ago.
18 Sep 2012, 15:56 pm
@cane-223: ha ha. That’s one small loss for South Africa, one giant headache for England.
18 Sep 2012, 15:56 pm
@poppa69-210: HG also ran away from Zim when the natives of that land revolted hence he feels kinship with all those he mentioned…he escaped to Natal…he’s a permanent refugee in SA
18 Sep 2012, 15:56 pm
imo the Cavaliers were close to, but not the very best, NZ could field at the time, but the refs didnt really come into it, the Boks beat them soundly – however they were the Cavaliers, not the ABs, and as such did not have the full backing of the country, some came for the money on offer and others for the chance of pitting their skills against what they considered to historically be their strongest rival, which indeed proved to be the case.
The 87 Bok side was phenomenal, but most of those players were probably a couple of years past their peak in any case. 86 cavaliers did not have 2 players that were the best in the world in 87, kirwan and jones (the iceman), and they were captained by one of the best captains of alltime, kirkpatrick.
So its probably not really possible to say who would have won. The 81 ‘rebel’ series was with a very yong Bok backline touring NZ and lost that in the final game due to a horrific amount of overtime and then a penalty by norling. It was quite a young backline, but from about 82-86 the Bok backline wouldve smoked allcomers, without doubt, every position was star-studded. In this series the Boks were probably not as committed as they would normally have been, with captain wynand claasen being particularly sympathetic to the shitarse safrican politics and the NZ protests at the time. That tour caused catastrophic unrest in NZ too, the Boks were on a hiding too nothing (probably deservedly so), before a flour bomb even landed on naas’s pip.
18 Sep 2012, 15:58 pm
@cab-228: It could be said that the Boks were not picked from the best talent in SA either, nor did they have the backing of the whole country.
Does this even things out? I don’t know.
18 Sep 2012, 15:58 pm
@TooMuchRugby-224:
i apologise.
i only returned serve, but its no excuse.
18 Sep 2012, 15:58 pm
Bakkies you will never teach me anything,did you get the answer to the quizz?
18 Sep 2012, 16:01 pm
sympathetic = unsympathetic
18 Sep 2012, 16:02 pm
to what?
who’s the biggest kiwi p r i c k between the hours of 9 and 5?
is it mutliple choice, just curios?.. i know the answer…
18 Sep 2012, 16:03 pm
@cab-228:
“on naas’s pip.”
dont you mean Knights head? dont recall naas being hit with a flourbomb?
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-230: Baklkies, i was asking a genuine question about an urban legend I heard in reference to that game… but that shows what filthy scum your people where for so many years… filthy filthy scum… (just returnign serve)
18 Sep 2012, 16:04 pm
The quote from 76′.
18 Sep 2012, 16:04 pm
@katman-229:
yes, i suppose so, I still think SA would have won that home series against the best AB team available in 86, simply because it was at home and they were too good a Bok team.
However, 87 would have been fascinating, Kirwan and Jones, were exceptional players.
2011 with Bismarck at 2, Alberts at 7 and Hougaard at 9 against the ABs would also have been one of the best games of alltime – we never got to see it. Thats the only good thing about world cups everyone tries to rest and get their players fit in the buildup to these events.
18 Sep 2012, 16:04 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-230: you’re as pathetic as the person whose serve you purport to be “returning”
you’re comfortable in pigpens?
18 Sep 2012, 16:05 pm
@poppa69-234:
hyperbola, it was funny to see naas’ young face when **** was falling from the sky.
18 Sep 2012, 16:09 pm
@poppa69-234:
come now pops old pal, your mate cane was spouting off about cavaliers being filth and not worthy of his support and that somehow the rest were that much more morally clean…
only life’s not so simple is it? things are never black and white with nothing inbetween.
there’s a snapshot of your supposedly morally superiour rugby folk right there.
is it still a game to love and support.
and then you mouthing off your little ‘gems’….
pull the other one, sonny
and
wake the fark up boet
18 Sep 2012, 16:10 pm
Cab at the 2011 WC the Welsh came within inches of beating you, the Moans gave you a second half rugby schooling and you lost to Aus for the 4th straight test yet YOU still think you would have beaten NZ at the garden of Eden, please Cabbie your coulda shoulda woulda calls are legendary on KEO you would not have beaten us that night.
18 Sep 2012, 16:10 pm
@poppa69-179: Not disputing that these type of things have happened but I am amazed you think it doesn’t work both ways
18 Sep 2012, 16:11 pm
@poppa69-234:
108.cane: Reply to this comment
18 Sep 2012, 14:16 pm
@Skeppie-101:
Skeepie:
I never watched a Boks/AB game from 1970 until reintroduction of the Boks into mainstream International Rugby.
I have never watched a Cavaliers game. Never will.
They were a Team brought and paid for by the regime in power in SA at the time. (under the auspices of some newspaper if memory serves me correctly).
If I had my way………………………none of the fukkers would ever have played rugby again.
————————————————
see pops, the worlds a complicated place….
18 Sep 2012, 16:14 pm
@Transformation-237:
i sincerely am sorry trans and i mean no offense.
18 Sep 2012, 16:14 pm
Cane is probably right, and were lured by a shedload of dosh, but alot of those players came for another reason, which is that they too, like their Bok counterparts were coming to the end of their careers, and wouldve grown up on the historic rivalry with the Boks and wouldve seen players like germishuys, mordt, naas, the duplessis brothers, gerber, reinach, serfontein, etc…and wouldve wanted to see just how good they were.
There was nothing else to touch those players in world rugby at the time – its going to sound arrogant, and i didnt even support the Boks then, but I doubt there’ve been many better backlines anytime anywhere, frighteningly good.
18 Sep 2012, 16:15 pm
Bakkies were you a supporter of the apartheid regime, honest question just want to know where you stand, honesty please?
18 Sep 2012, 16:17 pm
@cab-244: That was kinda my point, I always saw them as proud AB’s who wanted to face the old enemy before they retired, not saying I have it right but that was always my opinion.
18 Sep 2012, 16:18 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-243: don’t say sorry to me, you disgrace yourself they way you carry on…
18 Sep 2012, 16:19 pm
@NZINCHINA-240:
the Wales game, we only won because Bismark came off the bench, otherwise we would have lost that. Wales were a solid team, their openside was in scintillating form, probably the best opensider of the tournament, tho pocock decimates us too, with brussow have to go off early injured.
Bismarck was by far the best hooker in the world and crucial at getting teh Boks momentum, but he was not picked, and therefore Wales had the momentum and shouldve have beaten us, it was only when he came on later in the game that the momentum was reversed, which is incredibly rare.
I think we missed out on a real spectacle there, and i think you would agree too.
Not selecting Bismarck, would probably be akin to the ABs not selecting Carter – he was a worldclass weapon. PdV was actually v good right up until 2011 when he’s selections were abysmal.
18 Sep 2012, 16:20 pm
china, do you have an opinion on the numerous quotes i’ve pasted from articles relating to racism in nz sport as well as other parts of its society?
equally honest question….
18 Sep 2012, 16:21 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-242: I agree with Cane, most kiwis did at the time… there was even a court injunction to try and stop them going..
most kiwis didnt want them to tour
18 Sep 2012, 16:22 pm
could you ever come on here without needing to make snide remarks about south africans in some or other way for reasons probably only a shrink could explain?
18 Sep 2012, 16:23 pm
Cabbie agree with all that I just don’t think you would have taken us at home at the garden of Eden, anyway mate we’ll never know so who cares,your pack fronted on Saturday you could have sneaked it…
18 Sep 2012, 16:23 pm
@cab-244: those games should be expunged from IRB history! it was actually shameful of the IRB to continue to allow the Springboks to play under their auspices when FIFA & the IOC had banned the racist country from international sport.
18 Sep 2012, 16:24 pm
@cab-244:
@Skeppie-246:
The Cavalier tour sure was a great event from a young rugby spectators point of view (myself). I enjoyed every moment of it.
But thinking back, it was a really silly thing to do, considering the political climate at that time.
I’m thinking that it probably was orchestrated by some misguided rugby administrators backed up by the apartheid regime, and supported by some ignorance from the players (on both sides).
The Boks of that year were a great tem though, especially the backline.
18 Sep 2012, 16:27 pm
But if any act can be said to highlight where they stood, it was their decision in 1986 to ignore the rugby union, the Government, and a whole range of personal consequences to embark on an unprecedented rebel tour of South Africa after a planned official All Black tour was cancelled.
The tour was called off following an injuction lodged by two Auckland lawyers, Patrick Finnigan and Phillip Recordon, who argued it would contravene the rugby union’s constitutional promise to promote, foster and develop the game. Warwick Taylor and the the rest of his team weren’t so much disappointed as furious.
On July 13, All Black lock Murray Pierce was watching his club team, Wellington, play Oriental-Rongotai when Finnigan and Recordon’s injunction was announced. He was expecting to fly out to South Africa in five days, so he’d opted out of playing to avoid injury.
Pierce, a policeman at the time, had no idea of what had happened until another spectator told him. The team couldn’t leave until the case was completed.
“You couldn’t print my response,” he says. “It’s one of those moments in life that you never forget because I’d been looking forward to it for so long. I was really excited and having that taken away by a couple of smart lawyers, it was just gutting.”
The NZRU officially canned the tour two days later and the case was quicky dropped. Up in Rotorua, Pierce’s squad mate and rugby cult hero, Hika “the Hooker” Reid, was plain angry. He still fumes over 1981 and the impact of the anti-tour campaign: “Remember the Waikato game? Two hundred people stopped 30,000 people from enjoying themselves. How ridiculous is that? It was pathetic.”
Reid had been so determined to tour he’d played the trial match with a broken jaw. “I wouldn’t let the doctors wire me up, that’s how much I wanted it. I was like everyone else, I’d been watching those games since I was a kid and that was my shot.
“Everyone around me had been really supportive, but then I’m sure anyone who didn’t want the tour to go ahead wouldn’t have approached me. I know I wouldn’t have approached me. Especially after it was called off, I wasn’t exactly a happy chappy. So when the Cavaliers came up I was more than happy to jump on …”
As for Taylor, the injunction at least gave him some temporary relief from those opposed to the tour. He’d only started teaching at Christchurch’s Burnside High School the previous year and their staffroom wasn’t exactly a bastion of pro-tour sentiment.
He’d been the subject of protest marches around school grounds – pro and anti, with teachers on both sides – and wasn’t short of other people’s opinions. A Christchurch resident unlucky enough to share the same name had his fence graffitied for it.
But he was still keen to go. Aside from the obvious challenge, it also presented a chance to make amends for his brother Murray, who had been part of the Waikato team that famously didn’t play the Boks in 1981, and his own non-appearance from the bench during Otago’s match later in the tour.
All the same, he attended a few Hart (Halt All Racist Tours) meetings and pro-tour rallies before deciding he needed to go to South Africa to see for himself. Like the other players (with the notable exceptions of coach Brian Lochore, future World Cup winning captain David Kirk and winger John Kirwan), he raised his hand when a rebel tour was first mooted.
Not that it happened easily. The planning at this end was mostly run by lock forward Andy Haden and Auckland businessman Winston McDonald, but there were several false starts and constant media denials before the balloon finally went up in April 1986.
The bulk of the squad left as quietly they could, assembling in Sydney before flying on as a group. They were later met in South Africa by those – including Taylor – who had been playing for a World XV team in England. According to Taylor, they had left for Britain still unsure whether the rebel tour was on or not.
Just in case, he had left a letter with his wife apologising to his school for the extended absence and requesting further leave.
Rugby legend Sir Colin Meads was a late inclusion as coach, despite doubting their chances of success. No matter, to his way of thinking the trip wasn’t just a unique sporting adventure, it was about bridge-building and sticking one to the protesters he considers hypocrites for focusing on one injustice while ignoring others. So he was in, even though it would cost him his job.
“I was a New Zealand selector back then, and while they couldn’t sack me I was asked not to reapply next year. So it was curtains for me. But that didn’t worry me, I had no hesitation in going. I mean I had already been twice, and twice been pipped at the post by the referees. But for those other guys, this trip was their only chance at an opportunity they thought had passed them by. It was the ultimate in rugby.”
While he was still in the air, a black wreath was delivered to Pierce’s home, where his wife was with their newborn baby. By the time he found out, his wife and child had already moved in with her mother as a precaution.
“That was up-front, personal intimidation,” he says. “It was a scary thought to know that these people knew where we lived. When your family gets dragged into something like this the whole dynamic changes.”
full article here… http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10750033
18 Sep 2012, 16:27 pm
Bakkies yip a lot of what you posted is true sadly, you don’t have to answer the question but you being an honest chap and all I didn’t think you’d have a problem answering.
18 Sep 2012, 16:27 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-251:
Seriously Bakkies
The opposite is true about yourself, HG and Gunther.
I’m not supporting either side, but it’s getting really tiresome and subtracts from the intelligent rugby banter normally happening on the site.
18 Sep 2012, 16:28 pm
@Skeppie-246: It was still morally wrong and they,rightly,got sanctioned for it.For it was pure enjoyment,but for millions in SA and around the world it was painful to see a group of players go against world opinion.They basically endorsed apartheid with their decision to tour no matter how you want to spin their presence in SA of the eighties.
18 Sep 2012, 16:28 pm
@poppa69-250: Why though? Just because of the money issue?
18 Sep 2012, 16:28 pm
@wnbb-258: For you it…
18 Sep 2012, 16:29 pm
@Transformation-247:
yes, you are right.
its just not so easy to play nicely with thee kiwis though is it.
always want to make theie little smartass remarks but woe betide if you give them a wakeup call reality check.
@poppa69-250:
pity you couldnt make the same effort amongst yourselves though.
so much to fix within nz rugby and society.
but being the type of people you are, you rather look around for easy options cos looking yourselves in the eye an recognising your shortcomings is the harder thing to do.
18 Sep 2012, 16:30 pm
@NZINCHINA-252:
yeah maybe a step too far, but it would have been a helluva game imo.
@TooMuchRugby-254:
from a political and moral viewpoint, the tour was horrendous and the South Africans deserved to get bashed and no-one woulda felt sorry for them, cos everyone wanted to see that arrogance get its come-uppance – but purely from a rugby viewpoint, the talent, particularly the Boks backline talent was phenomenal. It was an immensely talented Bok team.
18 Sep 2012, 16:30 pm
@Transformation-253: That’s **** Transie and it’s disrespectful to the men who gave their blood sweat and tears to bok rugby. Not all white saffas are racists
18 Sep 2012, 16:32 pm
Cab there is one hell of a game coming up shortly in Soweto.
18 Sep 2012, 16:32 pm
make no mistake, most if not all unions fans on both sides of the indian ocean tuned in for it, and id hazard a guess cane might have watched with discontent, but maybe not – either way i think Cane was right – but the Bok rugby talent then was equally undeniable.
18 Sep 2012, 16:33 pm
Bakkies you should have answered that question…….
18 Sep 2012, 16:33 pm
@wnbb-258: Why was it morally wrong. Those springboks were nott he government, they did not create apartheid. Apartheid was an abomination but I don’t see why rugby can’t seperate itself from political madness.
18 Sep 2012, 16:34 pm
@NZINCHINA-264:
depends who they pick – its a poor excuse, but i want to see our best front up to nz, but yes it seems meyer is gradually getting it right and Soweto is going to be massive with the ABs trying to break the unbeaten test record that Malletts Boks hold.
18 Sep 2012, 16:34 pm
Right im off to bed, old Bakkies has taken the fifth so ill take that as a yes – cheers.
18 Sep 2012, 16:36 pm
thanks china, try to be a little more open and self effacing about yourselves and whats going on in your rugby as much as you do wrt sa rugby.
you’re always here running sa rugby down, convincing yourself your rugby is something it most certainly aint in the process.
its not unfortunately, and thats the truth… deal with it…
no, apartheid was a terrible thing and like racism in so many aprts of the world (such as nz in the present) it was abhorrent and has no place in modern societies and their attempts to make a world which is better.
18 Sep 2012, 16:37 pm
@katman-118: I think,therefore I am.LOL
18 Sep 2012, 16:38 pm
@Transformation-253:
yes they probably should – it was an enthralling series tho especially if you wanted to see that backline play test rugby or as close to it as was possible.
18 Sep 2012, 16:40 pm
@Transformation-253: Let’s also burn all copies of Paul Simon’s Graceland, while we’re at it.
18 Sep 2012, 16:41 pm
@TooMuchRugby-257:
look tmr, i never mean to take it to the gutter but you have to admit a lot of what these kiwis (and a good dose of locals too) do/say would never be tolerated anywhere on any forum in any farken place on the globe, by the/any resident group of bloggers who would be so affected and denigrated.
i dont think i’ve ever seen you call out the kiwis and their local bumchums when behaving so offensively.
18 Sep 2012, 16:42 pm
On sport and politics. Politicians don’t get sport, and never will. Sportsmen don’t get politics, and never will. Polar opposites on the ‘what I want to achieve, how I need to measure myself and how I want to be remembered’ scale. The End.
18 Sep 2012, 16:43 pm
@Skeppie-267:
At least our cricketers made a token protest, when they walked off at Newlands. Our rugby players just remained silent at the governments refusal to allow Maoris to tour.
18 Sep 2012, 16:43 pm
@Skeppie-141: He was doing a Cowan on Burger Geldenhuys.Dr.Danie said that BG would never play for Boks
again.And he never did.
18 Sep 2012, 16:44 pm
@poppa69-255:
and all the while a seemingly large percentage of the nz population were muttering under the breath or whispering to one another about the stupid maoris and pi’s…?..
to this day some of them do it seems…
18 Sep 2012, 16:45 pm
@Skeppie-263: where did i say all white saffas are racists?
the institution of SPRINBOK rugby at the time was run by bigot and the teams were picked along racial lines. FACT! the IRB had no reason to be endorsing a condemned regime! FIFA and the IOC had showed them the way but they still dragged their feet!
18 Sep 2012, 16:46 pm
@Skeppie-259: not the money issue at all, there was still plenty of residual effect from the 81 tour… that tour really divided NZ… so to have a team represent NZ and tour a country that was still being sanctioned did not sit well with many NZ people..
didnt think it would be that hard to grasp to be honest..
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-261: again, i think NZ society has less issues then SA society? but its by no means perfect either
“but being the type of people you are, you rather look around for easy options cos looking yourselves in the eye an recognising your shortcomings is the harder thing to do.”
please highlight some examples, then illustrate how SA goes about doing it the right way? turn the mirror on yourselves too bakkies, but your expertise on NZ society is very impressive..
do you believe everything you read in the newspapers too?
18 Sep 2012, 16:47 pm
@Skeppie-267: Don’t come with that apartheid was the government’s policy.No government in this world is seperate from the people.The people guides governments in policy-making decisions.You can’t seperate the one frome the other.Your people benifitted from that system because it served their purposes.Why is it that even in a democratic SA we had white players refusing to share rooms with black players or to accept them as equals.Why was it morally wrong?It was morally wrong because the world refused to accept a system whereby whites determined how a black man should live his life.The world refused to accept a system based on social divisions.
18 Sep 2012, 16:47 pm
@cab-265: the games were not televised IN NZ Cab, thats how much opposition there was to it… I doubt most kiwis have ever watched the games, but we know of things like the kinghit..
18 Sep 2012, 16:47 pm
@Skeppie-267: it wasn’t separate as those who picked the team were steeped in Broederbond kak!
you can’t deny that Danie Craven was a roving racist that said people of colour will never wear the Bok jersey!
you cannot!
18 Sep 2012, 16:49 pm
@NZINCHINA-157: A Murray Mexted Story.
GerT BezuidenhoutKeep the money.
18 Sep 2012, 16:53 pm
@poppa69-280:
but here we are poppa, on a south african blog discussing these very things.
no one here runs from the truth its brought up and thrown about as uncomfortable as it may be.
besides, you dont need to look for racial or other demons in south african sport and society… the facts are well know and easily exposed for all to see.
you dont need to teach us nothing on the subject boet.
rather try looknig uncomfortably inwards and ask questions of the self same men who allow maori and pi people to play rugby for their national team cos it keeps them winning and yet will think you a lesser man all the same.
face your own demons
believe me you have them
in sport
in race
in honesty
18 Sep 2012, 16:55 pm
and while you’re at it do something about your dishonest cheating
its time to clean your rugby up
18 Sep 2012, 16:57 pm
@wnbb-281:
you think the grass is green in nz?
18 Sep 2012, 16:59 pm
282 Popps oh really – good on new Zealand
I think the kinghit on dalton was during a midweek game bs bulls but gert smal, coach of Ireland, gave Gary knight a regmaker from hell – watch it on youtube – funny stuff.
18 Sep 2012, 16:59 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-285: sorry, where have I ever thought of PIs or those from my own culture as “lesser” men?
you seem to have me confused with your father..
Racism exists in NZ, but have you ever been to NZ bakkies? so how have you become an expert on NZ rugby and the inherent underlying “racism” that hides behind every rugby team in the land? who is your source and where is the unrefutable proof? because Andy Haden said the saders only have 3 PIs in their team? Because Pat Lam and fatialofa complained about racial taunts?
so that is unquestionable proof that the whole of NZ society is immersed in racial inequality?
you sir are one thick individual..
18 Sep 2012, 16:59 pm
you’ve gotten the rwc m o n k e y off your backs so make an effort to create a lagecy thats a little cleaner from here on in.
i would certainly start respecting ab rugby again if it could.
18 Sep 2012, 17:00 pm
@poppa69-289:
no, i mean the many white nz’ers who think you a lesser man simply for being maori.
18 Sep 2012, 17:01 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-285: Did you support the the Apartheid system??? Just answer the question.
18 Sep 2012, 17:02 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-274:
In my opinion the first shots in anger were fired by HG on this thread, and so it is most of the time.
Always Bakkies, HG and Gunther against the Kiwis. They are no innocent, but you guys sure are overstepping the boundaries, which leads to retorts by the Kiwi’s.
It’s flucking unpleasant man. Why don’t all of you grow up!
18 Sep 2012, 17:03 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-291: could you give me their names please, i am not sure who you mean
18 Sep 2012, 17:04 pm
@poppa69-289:
dont do this pops.
dont lie to yourself
dont lie to me
dont do this
i never said the whole of nz is undeniably racist but it certainly seems to undeniably be a lot less idealistic than you make believe.
going on those articles it would seem to in fact be far more racist than one could ever have imagined, no.
18 Sep 2012, 17:05 pm
@wnbb-292:
please refer post #270
18 Sep 2012, 17:05 pm
@wnbb-281: Of course governments are seperate from its people, don’t be naive, apartheid was as divorced from me as the current SA government is. Individuals are racist not entire countries. Those white players who refuse/refused to share rooms with black players will need to live with themselves but how can you say the entire bok team was racist because of the government’s evil policies?
18 Sep 2012, 17:07 pm
@NZINCHINA-245: A really kak question.Did you masturbate as a child?All whiteSaffers were..Some passive,some active.We are trying to build a nation for our childrenBlack & White.
18 Sep 2012, 17:08 pm
@TooMuchRugby-293:
ok fine i hear you, you can have your blog tmr.
play with yourselves as you see fit.
i really am dragging you all down.
i’ll pop in when the boks play.
@poppa69-294:
dont be ridiculous man..?..
18 Sep 2012, 17:09 pm
@Transformation-283: Transie individuals do not speak for everyone. You have a lot of facts about the white boks who were racist, how many facts do you have around the white boks who were not?
18 Sep 2012, 17:10 pm
ok i’m out folks
cheers for beers and good luck for your rugby (kiwis included).
18 Sep 2012, 17:11 pm
@Transformation-279: And rightly so, if our country was morally corrupt politically then action should have been taken, it was taken and today the people who were marginalised run the country with no opposition. The crime was punished. Why does rugby need to be a part of that?
18 Sep 2012, 17:11 pm
@Transformation-227: A permanent refugee in SA… lol… And the other couple of million Zimbabweans/Rhodesians here too… Generally the Zimbos black and white are more cultured and certainly better educated… Thats why the black Zimbos laughing all the way to the bank with BEE… Money for jam… Right skin colour and competence…
Meanwhile just the Zanu tenderpreneurs left in Zim eating their own tails…
The same inexorable way SA is going… But never mind this refugee, if it fcks out, I just go back to Blighty… or France.
The lot of the Rhodesian “Refugee”… No goddamn loyalty… except for the Boks, Sharks and of course the paycheck…
And that paycheck aint going anywhere because the Firm paying my salary aint Saffa so no chance of Zimbo style voodoo economics that your heroes Juliaas and Thabo are so enthralled with… Heck, if I asked my masters nicely they would send me straight back to blighty…
Until then I will just enjoy it here and watch the Saffa natives fck this land Zanu style in their tenderpreneur pig trough where they are happiest…
18 Sep 2012, 17:14 pm
@Transformation-283: Fuckyou… “Danie Craven was NOT a roving racist”… Not by any normal standards other than the Zanu wannabes in the Eastern Cape.
18 Sep 2012, 17:15 pm
@Skeppie-297: I did not say that the BOK team of that time was all racist,but it was your people that refused to share a toilet with a black man,a train ride,sitting side by side in a rugby stadium,sharing the same school,suburbs etc etc.No man,your people were happy to keep the status quo and voted ,time after time,to retain the apartheid system.Don’t be so naive to belief that the Nationalist government made the rules and the rest of your people were absolutely mortified by it.
18 Sep 2012, 17:15 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-295: again, have you been to NZ bakkies? serious question
how then can you ascertain what its like, because you read it somewhere?
why dont you go to Ferns favourite website “expatexposed”
you would never set foot into NZ if it was as bad as that site makes out… but I find it strange that so many people went to NZ for the World cup in 2011, of all races, colours and creed and 99% of them came away with memories to last themselves a lifetime..
you are one fcked up individual, to believe everything you read is seriously misguided..
good luck with that Bakkies, and please, dont ever come to NZ, we wouldnt want you to have to change your “filthy scum kiwi” opinion and think you may actually have your eyes opened..
18 Sep 2012, 17:16 pm
@Heavens Game-304: Are you a Zimbabwean refugee?
18 Sep 2012, 17:19 pm
@wnbb-307: No Capo…. I am as much a refugee as Teichman or Skinstad…
But if I were… Then fuckyou dumb slopeys too
18 Sep 2012, 17:19 pm
@Skeppie-300: When I say that all whites WERE racist,It was that they were inherently so.Any white liberal of the period
who denies this is a liar.
18 Sep 2012, 17:20 pm
@wnbb-305: What a very sad opinion that is. No my people did nothing of the sort. MY people are people who think like me and act like me, not english speaking or afrikaans speaking or white or black. My country shamefully voted in a terrible policy, but what about the almost half who voted against apartheid? The Nats won the vote by a hairs breadth….The people who voted against are my people so tell me now, why do you consider people against apartheid to be evil?
18 Sep 2012, 17:21 pm
@Skeppie-267:
SA rugby should’ve allowed NZ to select Maori’s then. Why did they not stand up to the politicians?
18 Sep 2012, 17:22 pm
@ryecatcher-309: Inherent racism is a truth, those of us who want to be better people fight agaisnt this daily. ALL south africans battle this afflication black as much as white.
18 Sep 2012, 17:25 pm
@Skeppie-310: You see?,there you contradict yourself.So,afterall,it is the people that determined the apartheid policy and voted it into law.Thanks for clearing that up Skeppie.
18 Sep 2012, 17:26 pm
@Heavens Game-308: I have no problem with Zimbabwean refugees,whether white or black,as long as they behave themselves in my country.
18 Sep 2012, 17:29 pm
@Skeppie-300: no person of colour was ever picked in close to a 100 years of springbok rugby, why didn’t the people you speak about stand up against what they knew was wrong?
how could they accept wearing a jersey that excluded the MAJORITY of their countrymen?
18 Sep 2012, 17:30 pm
@Transformation-279: A condemned regime… lol… True… And the current regime becoming nearly as condemned…
E he… giggle… E he Lets:
- Massacre some miners worse than any Sharpville or Boipatong
- Provide Iran with some nuclear fuel for a nuclear bomb program
- Oppose Israel with prejudice
- Have two SA presidents involved with arms deal corruption
- Harbour and adulate every 2 bit dictator the world over
- Hold up Mugabe as an absolute model of propriety
- Pissoff nearly every decent democratic state in Africa in a quest to claim the AU Presidency.
Giggle… E he…
Yup, most of Africa look on in amazement at the continual myopic fckups and excuses for competence in SA…
E.he.. Giggle…
Now let me go find another wife quickly… and maybe ask the GardenBoi whether he’s keen to be a director of a Broad Based Buck passing initiative I have in the offing…
18 Sep 2012, 17:32 pm
@Heavens Game-316: Were you a farm owner in Zimbabwe Heavens Game?
18 Sep 2012, 17:33 pm
@Skeppie-310:
Maybe you can explain something to me Skeppie.
Why, in the 13 years that Helen Suzman was the only voice of the opposition in parliament, was there no representative from liberal, English speaking Natal?
Sommer include the liberal, English speaking Capies also, if you can, in your explanation.
Also remember that the victory margin of the Nats increased from their narrow victory when they first came to power. Why do you think that was?
Truly serious questions.
18 Sep 2012, 17:33 pm
@wnbb-314: Is it your country? Because if you are pigmentally challenged as you no doubt are then you need to realise that Africa is for Africans only… Not colonists.. Azania is not your country my young one…
Ask Transie…
Azania is for the Zanu wannabes, tenderpreneurs and BEE Moguls… The rest, in the immortal words of Bob Mugabe, “Can go to H.ell”…
18 Sep 2012, 17:34 pm
@wnbb-317: No… Not in Zimbabwe… or Rhodesia for that matter?
Are you white, Capo?
18 Sep 2012, 17:37 pm
@Heavens Game-316: Why did you decide on SA as your first port of call?I know that many white Zimbabweans decided to go to Britain after the troubles they experienced living in Zimbabwe.
18 Sep 2012, 17:37 pm
@Heavens Game-316: so which country are you from again HG?
18 Sep 2012, 17:37 pm
@nama1-318: Maybe because the white English speaking Souties from the Last Outpost were persona non grata in parliament… Like they seem to be in the Bok side at the moment…
Ezwile?
18 Sep 2012, 17:42 pm
@wnbb-321: Because SA is a land of opportunity, no?
Many more dumbfck slopey suckers here to con or to take for a ride than in Blighty… And that what many Zimbos did… and still do… Why? Because they are generally just more clever.
Once Azania has been well and truly Zanufied then there’s always another country to go to as a Global Citizen… But for the mean while just get with it when the going is good…
18 Sep 2012, 17:44 pm
@Transformation-322: I hold an SA passport, ID Dompas and non forged Drivers License… What does that make me, Chumi?
18 Sep 2012, 17:48 pm
@Heavens Game-324: Ok,that’s a good reason.I was just wondering because it seems that you are not happy here in Africa.
18 Sep 2012, 17:52 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-251: Bakkies,can you please make use of that same shrink.
18 Sep 2012, 17:53 pm
@wnbb-326: Where does it seem I am not happy here in Africa?
Please educate me… Maybe you can outline it to me in the vernacular as the no doubt true South African or African you are, yeah?
How about a bit of an explanation from that great African in written Zulu or Xhosa… Or maybe even in Shangaan like Transie does now and again
18 Sep 2012, 17:54 pm
‘Siestog’ Tear-Beer Meyer, you truly are so limited.
You can “Talk the Talkie-walkie(doll if you wish) but you cannot Walk the Walkie-talkie” as that requires more energy and force to effect.
18 Sep 2012, 17:55 pm
@Heavens Game-323:
Actually, the last outpost did quite well in parliament as part of Sir Div Graafs SAP. They opposed the Nats but still couldn’t bring themselves to oppose segregation or equal rights. Neither could the Progs accept a universal franchise.
18 Sep 2012, 17:56 pm
@Heavens Game-323:
You did provide the Minister of Finance during the Nats reign but he was a Nat as well.
So, not so persona no grata in parliament, I think.
Maybe it was because you voted for them…. that was why you weren’t on the opposition benches.
Yeah, I think that is a much more plausible explanation.
18 Sep 2012, 18:03 pm
@Heavens Game-325:
So se jy vir ons dat “Chum” nie jou tjomis is nie?
Maar, om meer erntig te wees, weet jy dit maak geen saak wie Bier Meyer as lossskakel kies nie, of jantjies of Lambie of Goosen eenige een en almal van hulle sal mos “stelselmaatig agteruitgaan” wanneer hy(Bier M.) hulle begin afrig?
18 Sep 2012, 18:03 pm
@David-330:
Sorry, that should have been United Party, the later version of the SAP.
18 Sep 2012, 18:04 pm
@David-330: “Div Graaf”, you say? Thats a real Soutie sounding name like Patrick Lambie if ever I saw or heard one
18 Sep 2012, 18:05 pm
Helen Suzman
She gave up teaching for politics, being elected to the House of Assembly in 1953 as a member of the United Party.
She switched to the liberal Progressive Party in 1959, and represented the Houghton constituency as that party’s sole Member of Parliament, and the sole parliamentarian unequivocally opposed to apartheid, from 1961 to 1974. She was often harassed by the police and her phone was tapped by them.
Suzman was noted for her strong public criticism of the governing National Party’s policies of apartheid at a time when this was atypical of white South Africans, and found herself even more of an outsider because she was an English-speaking Jewish woman in a parliament dominated by Calvinist Afrikaner men. She was once accused by a minister of asking questions in parliament that embarrassed South Africa, to which she replied: “It is not my questions that embarrass South Africa; it is your answers”.
Later, as parliamentary white opposition to apartheid grew, the Progressive Party merged with Harry Schwarz’s Reform Party and became the Progressive Reform Party. It was renamed the Progressive Federal Party, and Suzman was joined in parliament by notable liberal colleagues such as Colin Eglin. She spent a total of 36 years in parliament.
18 Sep 2012, 18:05 pm
Nama, Transie, WNBB & Co,
You ou’s may as well stop looking for apartheid supporters
Going on modern opinion there were only 7 supporters across the entire land. 3 now reside in perth, 3 in the uk and 1 is still hold up in a bunker somewhere in die ou transvaal
18 Sep 2012, 18:08 pm
@nama1-331: Voted for “them”? Lol… You mean like your honourable brethren voted for their “representatives” in the Tricameral system… Ja, you “traditional powers”, Black, White and in between, did a good job fcking up the country like you doing a great job fcking up Bok rugby…
18 Sep 2012, 18:09 pm
@Heavens Game-337: For the record I have not caste a vote in SA, ever… Not before 94… or after…
18 Sep 2012, 18:12 pm
@Heavens Game-334:
He was a baronet.
18 Sep 2012, 18:12 pm
Often in this life, as much experience will demonstrate, you have to counter a destructive force with an equal or stronger counter and destructive a force, e.g. fighting fire with fire to stop the destruction and devastation of the original fire.
‘Verkrampte’ control pf rugby in S.A. is a destructive force as shown by curtailing or denying the captaincies to players like Bedford, Wynand Claasen(but not JohanCL.) and Hopwood amongst others.
Keep this idea in mind for the rest of your rugby lifetimes and as you read in the future..
18 Sep 2012, 18:13 pm
@Mostofyou-332: Chumi is nie my Chum nie… die waarheid…
“Bier Meyer”… Lol
Farkhim and this North South Traditional rivalry that is well and truly fcking up Bok rugby.
18 Sep 2012, 18:13 pm
@TooMuchRugby-257:
Don’t kid yourself that you have anything to do with intelligent rugby banter plank.
18 Sep 2012, 18:15 pm
@Heavens Game-334:
His Queen knighted him, so Sir De Villiers Graaf. to a “Soutie” like you.
18 Sep 2012, 18:15 pm
@Skeppie-310: in the Commonwealth would be determined only by her best interests.
Verwoerd
The question of apartheid dominated the 1958 election and the NP took 55 per cent of the vote, thus winning a clear majority for the first time. When Strijdom died that same year, there was a tripartite succession contest between Swart, Donges and Hendrik Verwoerd. The latter, devoted to the cause of a South African Republic, was the new Prime Minister. Verwoerd, a former Minister of Native Affairs, played a leading role in the institution of the apartheid system. Under his leadership, the NP solidified its control over South African, apartheid-era politics.
To gain support of the English-identified population of South Africa, Verwoerd appointed several English-speakers to his cabinet. He also cited the radical political movements elsewhere in the African continent as vindication of his belief that black and white nationalism could not work within the same system. Verwoerd also presented the NP as the party best equipped to deal with the widely-perceived threat of communism.
By the end of his term (and, as a result of his assassination, his life), Verwoerd had solidified the NP’s domination of South African politics. In the 1966 elections, the party won 126 out of the 170 seats in parliament.
By 1960, however, much of the South African electorate were calling for withdrawal from the Commonwealth and the establishment of South Africa as a republic. It was decided that a Republican referendum was to be held in October. International circumstances made the referendum a growing necessity. In the aftermath of the World War II, former British colonies in Africa and Asia were gaining independence and publicizing the ills of apartheid. Commonwealth members were determined to isolate South Africa.
There were numerous internal factors which had paved the way for and may be viewed as influences on the result:
Harold Macmillan’s “Winds of Change” speech, in which he declared that independence for black Africans was an inevitability;
Many white South Africans were unwilling to give up apartheid and realised that South Africa would have to go it alone if it was to pursue its racial policies.
The assertion that economic growth and a relaxation of racial tensions could be achieved only through a Republic;
The Sharpeville Massacre;
The attempted assassination of Verwoerd; and, most importantly,
The 1960 census, which revealed that there were more Afrikaners in the country than English, thus almost guaranteeing the NP victory in a Republican referendum.
Well,as you can see skeppie,your people decided the policy and not just a bunch of old toppies in parliament..
18 Sep 2012, 18:16 pm
@nama1-335:
You forgot to mention the Progs still believed in a qualified franchise, similar to the one in Rhodesia. The real tragedy was the banning of the old Liberal Party which refused to accept the restriction on single race membership.
18 Sep 2012, 18:16 pm
@Heavens Game-341:
See 340 the destruction is minimally revealed right there.
18 Sep 2012, 18:17 pm
Houghton in conservative, predominantly Afrikaans speaking Transvaal, at least sent a person to parliament to fight against Apartheid in the public sphere.
Liberal ” white English speaking Souties from the Last Outpos” in the predominantly English province of Natal cannot win a constituency to sent a representative to parliament for at least. 13 years
Now let’s see. You guys voted every four years. Between 1961 and 1974 there must have been at least FOUR general elections for whites-only. So, in four general elections the Nats won all the seats for parliament in Natal. How did they do it?
Voted in by the “Liberal ” white English speaking Souties from the Last Outpost,” that’s how.
“We” voted against Apartheid, my arse.
Later yes, only much later when the benefits were already their for the reaping.
18 Sep 2012, 18:17 pm
@wnbb-321:
Why did you go overseas Capo?
If we are asking 20 questions.
18 Sep 2012, 18:18 pm
@David-339: A nice little title bestowed on his Robber Baron Daddy by Her Majesty for services rendered to Blighty…
He is as soutie as the average little white picaninnie from Villierdorp that his family originates from… Not very soutie at all.
18 Sep 2012, 18:22 pm
To all you delusional rugby ‘fundis’ who live in a dream world and never quite understand the underhand forces at play, here is your ditty:
‘ O rugby boertjie jys nou in jou moertjie
En jy is nie meer ,’n wonderlike ding
Jou rugby staan op wag
Want jy het nie meer die krag
Dis mos alles in die Boeremag
The tune is inspired by the wonderful captain so aptly named by some.
18 Sep 2012, 18:22 pm
@Heavens Game-349:
Didn’t his grandson run over somebody a few years ago?
18 Sep 2012, 18:24 pm
@wnbb-344: Yes… Capo… You can copy and paste… just like Transie…
But just like Transie do you actually understand what you do copy and paste…?
I doubt it in this case, especially.
18 Sep 2012, 18:27 pm
@gunther-351: No idea, cuzzie… You tell me, especially since you seem to mix in that Ye Olde Constantia set of Robber Barons, Mercs and their descendants
18 Sep 2012, 18:27 pm
@nama1-347:
Houghton was a predominantly Jewish suburb at the time, and the “liberals” in Natal were anything but. The old UP never actually opposed apartheid, just supported white nationalism instead of Afrikaner Nationalism.
18 Sep 2012, 18:28 pm
@Heavens Game-338:
Don’t get all individual on me now HG. You know we are talking about ” white English speaking Souties from the Last Outpos”
Remember this was the conversation between mnbb and Skeppie. I then asked Skeppie my question when you felt the need to jump in.
@wnbb-305:
“No man,your people were happy to keep the status quo and voted ,time after time,to retain the apartheid system.”
@Skeppie-310:
” No my people did nothing of the sort. ……The Nats won the vote by a hairs breadth….The people who voted against are my people”
18 Sep 2012, 18:30 pm
The funny thing about that republican issue was the way Verwoerd duped the ‘souties’ to vote for it.They actually believed that SA would still have a big say in the British Commonwealth.So much for ‘souties’saying Afrikaners are ‘dom etters’.
18 Sep 2012, 18:33 pm
Another verse for the delusional jan boertjie:
O boere rugby dis pure meisies thugby
En jy is nie meer ‘n wonderlike ding
Jul rugby is vers te sag
En dit is om oor te lag / of; en dit word nou verkrag
Dis oorspronklik van die OssewaBrandwag
18 Sep 2012, 18:33 pm
@nama1-347: “white English speaking Souties from the Last Outpost” just gave a collective middle finger to it all…
However they did refuse to learn compulsory Afrikaans with any great proficiency while many learnt how to communicate in a black language…
Probably more whiteys who can actually speak or write a black language in the Last Outpost than anywhere else in SA… And not just because of the Sugar Barons either
You lilly liberal Capeys are big talk, but fark me you are as far away from being true African mukiwas in that little insular Capey bubble as the average Pom or Yank expat working in Mzansi now…
18 Sep 2012, 18:37 pm
@nama1-355: Individual? So you consider yourself a “Traditional Power” of some sort, hey Nama…
What, dont tell me… you and your forebears “traditionally” own 40% of the Richtersveldt and 20% of the Namib…
Jeez, your ego may have gone all BBBEE oversized in a hurry….
18 Sep 2012, 18:40 pm
@David-354:
Yes, but I was taking about the provinces as it was back then. The four of them.
If a single constituency like Houghton could vote in a parliamentarian election after election for 13 years, how was it that the whole of Natal and Cape Province could not even vote in one person between them for 13 years?
They were known as the liberal provinces at the time compared to Free State and Transvaal.
….but as you say, ” the “liberals” in Natal were anything but.”
They were Nats/Apartheid supporters.
18 Sep 2012, 18:40 pm
@wnbb-356: For you to think that Verwoerd duped many souties shows who the etter truly is…
Fark, most souties just laughed at the Nats… Took thepiss… Like they do now to all the tenderpreneurs and all those Nats like Kortbroek van Schalkwyk – great leader he is and was – with their snouts straight up their new masters’ backsides
18 Sep 2012, 18:42 pm
South Africa’s pet topic again, now that we are all talked out of the rugby I see……
It’s been entertaining.
18 Sep 2012, 18:44 pm
@nama1-360: No Nama… You clearly have no clue to the psyche of the souties of the Last Outpost…
That anti establishment takethepiss ethos is alien to the likes of you and many of you North South traditional powers and your need for netjies structures in rugby… and life…
18 Sep 2012, 18:45 pm
@stormersboy-362: Lol… Glad to have kicked off this little game for you…
18 Sep 2012, 18:50 pm
@Heavens Game-358:
So what you’re saying is that you did farkall to fight against it then. The whole of the Natal province stood idly by and watch this thing called Apartheid happening right under their nose and did not give a ratsarse.
Is that what you are saying?
@Heavens Game-359:
You know exactly what I mean.
Actually, the Nama people of the Richtersveld won their court case against the current regime re their traditional right to their land.
So they own 100% of the land including some diamond mining operations.
18 Sep 2012, 18:51 pm
@Skeppie-312: You also get rabid black
racism.We have to work it out.
18 Sep 2012, 18:53 pm
@Heavens Game-363:
More like “take the profit” if you ask me.
18 Sep 2012, 18:58 pm
I think the old outpost had sone of the biggest racists outthere and that was even before the influx of the embittered zimbos following the bush war.
As Nama points out, it was only suzman in parliament inititally, who took a stand. But I think it’s the boere who came full circle in their own lifetime, like that afr dominee who quesioned his entire conditioning, and took aim at the hereformeerde kerk that was most remarkable.
18 Sep 2012, 18:58 pm
@nama1-335: Helen Suzman was also infamously abandoned by the ANC when they came into power.
18 Sep 2012, 18:59 pm
@Heavens Game-363:
You have as little idea of the Natal psyche during the apartheid years as you have of WP rugby supporters. Natal, as an english speaking province, despised the Nats but supported apartheid. In a far more genteel manner, of course. Their sudden paternalistic love for the Zulus had far more to do with support for Gatsha against the ANC than it did for a respect for an indigenous people.
God, you talk ****.
18 Sep 2012, 19:01 pm
@Heavens Game-361: You don’t have to feel bad.Imean,after all said and done,you are Zimbabwean born and bred,and probably was still running around those tobacco farms whilst all that shite was happening down here.
18 Sep 2012, 19:02 pm
@cab-368: Yeah, well what you think is a moot point… Clearly based on farkall understanding either especially from a pillar van die ou transvaal now walking the streets of London trying to pretend he likes eating pies instead of boerewors and can actually say African without it coming out “Effrican”…
18 Sep 2012, 19:02 pm
The souties only ever really been interested in money. Look at Rhodes, that bent poefda, prob worse than bj Botha and vorster verster en kie combined
18 Sep 2012, 19:06 pm
@David-370: Rubbish man… What, you suddenly an expert on the Last Outpost and Natal souties now… Farkoff man. You farken don’t even know what Johnnies in Overport is about… Now you spouting off in a typical know it all Capey lilly liberal attitude common to the likes of educational refugee spouting Zille… You okes in that Cape bubble know farkall about SA past Graaf Reinet or the Wine Route… You really shouldnt pretend you actually do…
18 Sep 2012, 19:08 pm
@ryecatcher-369:
Not by Mandela.
18 Sep 2012, 19:08 pm
@wnbb-371: Nope… Clearly you are wrong… Why do Tobacco when sugar is much more simple and profitable… Especially in the Sugar Baron Last Outpost…
Yup, that legislated Sugar Act was and is very profitable for many souties…
18 Sep 2012, 19:10 pm
@Heavens Game-364: hahaha
But as you know, it’s basically impossible to convince someone of your views if he or she is unable to see your point of view, so it’s a bit useless really.
I shall content myself with observing this time.
18 Sep 2012, 19:11 pm
@Heavens Game-374:
I probably know, and have experienced far more about SA politics over the last 40 odd years than you could imagine, in that little bubble you exist in.
18 Sep 2012, 19:12 pm
Janee the souties plundered the continent bare, they been colonising everywhere eversince.
18 Sep 2012, 19:13 pm
Why don’t you all go get laid
18 Sep 2012, 19:13 pm
How conveniently the numbers and per centages of history are being distorted to acquire an acceptable and adequate, but nonetheless treacherous and false, image.
A simple question, how do those voting per centages go all the way up(from 1958) to 87% of whites who voted if not concertedly boosted by english of that last outpost and any other damn post?
18 Sep 2012, 19:14 pm
@Heavens Game-358: The previously
disadvantaged are the new NAtionalist party.Strongly recommended
reading”R>W>JOHNSON SOUTHAFRICA THe BRAVE NEW WORLD”
Author worked for the Helen Suzman Foundation.A compelling and
discouraging read.
18 Sep 2012, 19:14 pm
@cab-373: Rhodes… A legend… Pity his little Jamieson raid didn’t come off… Then the Boks might actually be playing Baa Baas or Sharkie type rugger instead of the netjies obsessed structure now which you okes van die ou transvaal are most comfortable… Cecil John – probably the only man in the world after which a country was named… Cape to Cairo Legend:lol:
18 Sep 2012, 19:17 pm
@cab-373:
> Look at Rhodes, that bent poefda, prob worse than bj Botha and vorster verster en kie combined
Yip, for once I agree with you
If his greed for gold didn’t cause the Boer War the country might have turned out quite different
A lot of farmers returning after the war found their farms destroyed by the Brits and had to go to work in the cities, a lot in the mines.
Rhodes and his friends replaced them with African mine workers as they could pay them even less, hence the 1922 Rebellion
18 Sep 2012, 19:17 pm
@David-378: I think you are probably wrong… Definitely probably.
And if not then no wonder politics are farked if you are such a kenner in that game as seen in the myopic bulldust you post from such an ivory tower dizzy height…
18 Sep 2012, 19:17 pm
And my goodness look who all are now trying to give these supposed ‘facts’, if not those from the perpetrator grouping itself?
How questionable must those not be and thus hurled into your collective ‘kakabalies’ as you sit with the spoils of all the ghostly Lonmins?
18 Sep 2012, 19:18 pm
lol – legendary poefda more like – if it weren’t for the boere we’d be getting pomped like natal did for 100 years before wynan claasen arrived from PTA and resucitated their rugby with mouth-to-mouth.
18 Sep 2012, 19:19 pm
Verwoerd offered the ‘Last outpost souties’ a few government positions for their absolute support for his Apartheid policies,which they gladly accepted.Although they might not have been happy with the policy of the day they simply were not prepared to accept blacks as equal social partners.
18 Sep 2012, 19:23 pm
Let me remind you:all of where you truly are:
O rugby boertjie jys in jou moertjie
En jy is nie meer ‘n wonderlike ding
Jou rugby staan op wag
Want jy is nie meer ‘n krag
Dis mos in jou Boeremag
18 Sep 2012, 19:23 pm
@Heavens Game-383:
> Rhodes… A legend… Pity his little Jamieson raid didn’t come off
Rhodes…a Mofgat… Pity they didn’t hang him and his bum chum Jamieson
18 Sep 2012, 19:24 pm
@cab-387: Fark off… No Banana Boy Natal soutie side ever got pomped by Die Manne van die Ou Transvaal… They just got pomped by the refs…
Claasen was always a bit of a soutie by heart but he wasnt there when that proper soutie Tony Watson scored the try to end any pretensions that the Last Outpost was ever inferior to any farken “traditional power” at the game played in heaven…
And when the souties win Super rugby next year, Last Outpost domination will be complete once and for all…
18 Sep 2012, 19:27 pm
@wnbb-388: **** man… I actually reckon you maybe dont even know what a soutie is…
Let me define it:
Soutie: A superior saffa… more witty… more intelligent… and a certainly better looking breed… Can often speak more languages than just Seffrican English and Voortrekker Code…
See?
18 Sep 2012, 19:29 pm
@victoriabok-390: Hey, we love Cecil down here in the Cape.We even got a memorial dedicated to his great achievements in Africa.
18 Sep 2012, 19:29 pm
@Heavens Game-392:
> Soutie: A superior saffa… more witty… more intelligent… and a certainly better looking breed…
Ha ha ou sproetgesig rooinek, ek skud my (groter) boeretril vir jou
18 Sep 2012, 19:29 pm
@Heavens Game-392:
18 Sep 2012, 19:32 pm
@Heavens Game-392: Sorry forgot the most important part… Let me redo
Soutie: A superior saffa… more witty… more intelligent… and a certainly better looking breed… Can often speak more languages than just Seffrican English and Voortrekker Code… And, as the moniker suggests, obviously possesses a jolly big joystick, certainly bigger than the average Saffa van die ou transvaal or those eunuchs van die Kaap… Probably bigger than the next biggest… a Zulu from Nkandla
Indeed, souties are the true spears of this nation.
18 Sep 2012, 19:33 pm
@wnbb-393:
Of course you will Daahling, he was the founding father(mother?)of the Cape Town LGBT Association
18 Sep 2012, 19:33 pm
@victoriabok-394: See post 395 and then come speak again… Spear of the Nation got nothing on a Soutpiel
18 Sep 2012, 19:35 pm
Rhodes should be a role- model for all aspiring business tycoons in South Africa.He was a great visionary of his time and single-handedly defined the British economic empire on the African continent.We should all aspire to be like Rhodes,a true marvel of humanity.
18 Sep 2012, 19:36 pm
@Heavens Game-396:
> obviously possesses a jolly big joystick, certainly bigger than the average Saffa van die ou transvaal or those eunuchs van die Kaap
Did the headboy tell you that during initiation in the Michaelhouse showers?
18 Sep 2012, 19:36 pm
@wnbb-388: Joel Mervis was a brilliant
Suday Times satirist.
Anthony Trollop moved from the opposition benches to the Nats.
Shortly after Horwood who was to become Minister of Finance.did the same.
Both immediately got cabinet posts.
Mervis posed the question.
“who would follow a Trollop into the cabinet.?Only a Horwood”
18 Sep 2012, 19:38 pm
@Heavens Game-396: lol.Leave the Canadian oke alone before he jumps into his eskimo bootjie to hunt you down.
18 Sep 2012, 19:40 pm
@ryecatcher-401: Brilliant.
18 Sep 2012, 19:41 pm
@ryecatcher-401: Can we go back to rugby please?
18 Sep 2012, 19:42 pm
@victoriabok-400: Come now… You chaps gave the Engelse that name… And if the shoe fits then it must be worn… Fark me, that shoe has got to be farken huge…
Think about it… A coupla legs spanning two continents, physics dictate that for the middle leg to dip into the ocean either your average banana boy is farken brilliant at splits or the rumours are actually true…
18 Sep 2012, 19:42 pm
@Heavens Game-391:
Claasen was a pure afrikaner who rebelled against the Afrikaans calvinist establishment, much like Boland Coetzee who kicked the Broederbond off his farm when they came recruiting, and van Zyl Slabbert. Afrikaners have been more active against apartheid than those superior colonialists in Natal who opposed the Nats only because they weren’t English.
18 Sep 2012, 19:43 pm
@wnbb-399:
> We should all aspire to be like Rhodes,a true marvel of humanity.
Yes a saint, like when his guys used Maxim machine guns to mow down Matabele warriors objecting to him taking their country?
18 Sep 2012, 19:45 pm
@victoriabok-400: Naah, not the showers…that’s probably more appropriate for those funnybuggers and their shenanigans behind the squash courts… They all tended to be Capeys… (Ask Grunter
)
18 Sep 2012, 19:45 pm
@Heavens Game-405:
Funnily enough my Soutie friends here laughed when I told them I’m a Soutpiel as well now
18 Sep 2012, 19:46 pm
@David-406: Rubbish man… All this sudden convenient revisionism… You lilly liberal Capeys… Will never find you in any foxhole anywhere…
18 Sep 2012, 19:48 pm
@victoriabok-409: Hehe… You new kind of souties are probably more the proficient at splits kind…
18 Sep 2012, 19:52 pm
@Heavens Game-411:
No, not really fortunatly we’re better endowed than the former Souties
The water between SA and Canada is cold….and deep too
18 Sep 2012, 19:53 pm
@Heavens Game-410:
Except if it’s a foxy hunk’s hole?
18 Sep 2012, 19:55 pm
@victoriabok-412: Ja no well vok… Thats not what some now fortunate willing Pretoria milfs tell me…
After the initial “Liewe Hemel… Jislaaik!”, that is…
(sheezus, better be careful… Banshee reads this shy.te from time to time)
18 Sep 2012, 19:56 pm
@Heavens Game-410:
That’s because, unlike you Sharkies, we don’t hide when the sh*t’s flying.
18 Sep 2012, 19:56 pm
@Heavens Game-408:
Met some Michaelhouse guys on during our honeymoon on a trout fishing lodge in the Southern Drakensberg near the Sani pass
Decent and very well mannered chaps, but Skeef soos ‘n sewe Rand noot Boet
Was Gunther in that school?
18 Sep 2012, 19:57 pm
@David-406: Jan Boland Coetzee
Written by Lucas
In die hartjie van die Boland tussen reuse kranse en klowe lê die pragtige studente dorp, Stellenbosch wat wêreld beroemd is vir sy manjifieke wyne en Springbok rugby fabriek by uitstek. Die twee dinamiese tydverdrywe kombineer heel dikwels en ‘n uitstekende voorbeeld is Jan Boland Coetzee, Springbok en bobaas wynmaker.
Jan se plaas Vriesenhof is geleë in die asemrowende Paradyskloof tussen die Helderberg en Stellenbosch. Dit is ‘n besige tyd vir dié wynboer waar hy saam met sy werkers besig is om druiwe te pars, duidelik hou die oud-losvoorspeler nog steeds daarvan om die “vuilwerk” te verrig soos in die losskrums van weleer! Hy staan egter graag ‘n tydjie af om oor rugby te gesels en met sy kenmerkende Malmesbury brei verwelkom hy besoekers vriendelik.
As ‘n “kleinerige” flank het Jan eers laat in sy roemryke loopbaan Springbok geword toe hy as 29 jarige in die tweede toets teen die 1974 Leeus gespeel het. Jan vertel met ‘n groot glimlag, “Ek kan seker ondubbelsinnig sê dat ek in die meeste proewe gespeel het wat enige speler kon in gespeel het! Dit was die era waar ouens nie geglo het in klein losvoorspelers nie. Vandag, 30 jaar later is die Smiths en die Kriges niks groter as wat ek was nie!” Hy was miskien klein, maar rateltaai.
Die Leeus het die Springbokke in die eerste en tweede toets pakslae gegee en die keurders het, ten spyte van goeie voorbereidings grootskaalse veranderinge aangebring en Jan is uitgelaat vir die res van die toer. Doc Craven veral was snydend in sy kritiek maar ten spyte van sy “jare” het Jan volhard, “Ag, op daardie stadium was my boerdery taamlik groot en ek het die keuse gehad om op te hou maar as ek nou terugdink het ek verskriklik baie genot geput uit rugby, die vriende wat ‘n ou maak is onvervangbaar.”
Die Springbokke het die derde toets ook verloor en kon slegs ‘n gelykop uitslag in die vierde toets afdwing. Vir die eerste keer daardie eeu kon hulle nie ‘n toets op eie bodem in ‘n reeks wen nie. Volgens Jan het, “Syd Millar en Willie John McBride, wat afgesien van hulle rugby vaardighede uitstekende leiers was” dié trop Leeus van hulle voorgangers onderskei. Die 1974 Leeus sal altyd onthou word as een van die beste spanne wat nog deur Suid-Afrika getoer het.
In 1975 het Morné Du Plessis die Springbokke vir die eerste keer teen Frankryk aangevoer. Jan het as reserwe in die tweede toets ‘n verskyning gemaak en die reeks is 2-0 beklink.
Die grootste uitdaging vir enige Springbok is die All Blacks en die 1976 besoekers onder aanvoering van Andy Leslie het te midde van politieke onweerswolke en druk voortgegaan. Betogers het dinge probeer moeilik maak vir die spelers maar die keurders het die dure les van 1974 onthou en die tuisspan se taak vergemaklik deur so min as moontlik met die span te torring.
Jan onthou die All Blacks as ‘n besondere span, “Ek het die voorreg gehad om baie teen hulle te speel; SA Universiteite, Gaselle, WP en die toetse, seker in totaal 8 wedstryde! Daar bestaan nie so iets soos ‘n swak All Black span nie, veral met spelers soos Kirkpatrick, Going, Leslie en so kan jy aangaan. Daar was ook voorspelers soos Billie Bush, hy was ‘n ongepoetste blikskottel, wat vir my en Moaner van Heerden besig gehou het!” Die Springbokke het die reeks 3-1 verower te midde van felle Nieu-Seelandse kritiek teen skeidsregter Gert Bezuidenhout.
Jan is bekommerd oor die moderne Springbokke en vra jy hom oor die huidige stand van sake na ‘n nagmerrie jaar is die antwoord, “Ek dink ons ouens wat buite staan is nie opgewasse om te oordeel nie maar die een ding wat ‘n paar van ons pla is die trots, dit is ‘n bietjie aangetas. Dit wil voorkom of die profesionele deel meer belangrik is as die land en die ouens behoort te weet en Craven het dit op honderde geleenthede beklemtoon, Suid-Afrika kom eerste!”
Deesdae as ‘n suksesvolle wynboer voel Jan, “Ek dink dit gaan goed, die wyn industrie is besonders opwindend en na 1994 het dit gefloreer. As daar een ding is wat die ‘Madiba Magic’ veroorsaak het was dat dit beter met ons wynboere gaan.”
Jan as filantroop deel egter sy lewensukses met ander, “Ek sê altyd een ou kan nooit die wêreld verander nie maar een ou kan die wêreld vir een ander ou verander.” Dié wyse woorde som die man. Jan Boland Coetzee – Springbok legende in woord en daad.
A true gent and a legend on top of it.
18 Sep 2012, 19:58 pm
@David-415: Yeah… You dont have to hide… Because you nowhere near any frontline, more content with no try moerthe sky mortarbombs… Like your rugby…
Never on any advantage line… Just pressure from the rear…
18 Sep 2012, 19:58 pm
@Heavens Game-414:
> After the initial “Liewe Hemel… Jislaaik!”, that is…
You should complete the phrase
Jislaaik… is dit al?
or even worse
Jislaaik…is dit in?
18 Sep 2012, 20:00 pm
@victoriabok-416:
Don’t expose the the lifestyles of your fellow bloggers now ,victoriabok
18 Sep 2012, 20:02 pm
@David-415:
No, you just slap on the Vaseline and get stuck in
18 Sep 2012, 20:02 pm
@wnbb-420:
Gunther’s not a follower of the “alternative lifestyle” is he?
18 Sep 2012, 20:04 pm
@victoriabok-416: Ja, but they probably from the Cape… Balgowan High, a decent boarding school, with pretensions of tradition and grandeur especially with the buildings, however I fortunately attended an older one with more tradition… And certainly more Bok representatives.
18 Sep 2012, 20:05 pm
@victoriabok-419: Jislaaik… Die egte regte GROOT Krokodil… Vokkol PeeWee NIE!
18 Sep 2012, 20:07 pm
@victoriabok-422: E…rr……maybe.
18 Sep 2012, 20:13 pm
@Heavens Game-424: Followed by the invariable “Sjoe! Is jy seker dit byt nie?”…
And with that I am over and out…
18 Sep 2012, 20:20 pm
@Heavens Game-426:
> Followed by the invariable “Sjoe! Is jy seker dit byt nie?”…
Nee, my slang spoeg net
18 Sep 2012, 20:23 pm
What a load of unadulterated kuk
Some people need to get jobs and lives
18 Sep 2012, 20:26 pm
@Dawn-428: ….and wives.
18 Sep 2012, 20:28 pm
@Dawn-428:
Jy’s meer op Keo as enigiemand anders…
18 Sep 2012, 20:33 pm
I am outta here.The battle of the Santiago Bernabeu will commence soon.Cheers.
18 Sep 2012, 20:35 pm
@victoriabok-416: michaelhouse is a run of yhe mill school that boasts only lambie as their only Bok, can u imagine?
@Heavens Game-423: don’t lie Treverton don’t have any Boks!
18 Sep 2012, 20:38 pm
@Dawn-428: hey angie…i see you liked the pic i shared gister
18 Sep 2012, 20:44 pm
Yes. Respect!
18 Sep 2012, 20:46 pm
@Heavens Game-392:
18 Sep 2012, 20:51 pm
Really enjoy Super Rugby but Currie Cup rugby is very special, provincialism at its best.
18 Sep 2012, 21:20 pm
@victoriabok-416: Michaelhouse.
Teichman.Skinstad.Mens Men.(Not in that context at all)
18 Sep 2012, 21:27 pm
@ryecatcher-437: Teichmann and Skinstad went to Hilton…
18 Sep 2012, 21:29 pm
@ryecatcher-437:
> Teichman.Skinstad
Both were in Hilton
18 Sep 2012, 21:35 pm
@Transformation-432: actually Pat Cilliers, a Bok, is also from Michaelhouse…
18 Sep 2012, 21:39 pm
@Honesty Box Seymour-438:
Of course they did.Sorry all
18 Sep 2012, 21:59 pm
@victoriabok-422:
Only in Capo’s dreams.
Michaelhouse is a great school but not great enough to be be blessed with my presence.
18 Sep 2012, 22:29 pm
@Honesty Box Seymour-440: oh yeah, his cameo at newlands…he’s their 2nd one…
18 Sep 2012, 22:31 pm
South Africa
Mitchell eyes bright SA future
Tue, 18 Sep 2012 18:17
PrevNextIt might be time for me to go into a good structure and a reliable organisation
John Mitchell has hinted at a possible move to another leading South African union once his legal battle with the Lions is resolved.
The former All Black mentor has been embroiled in an employment dispute with the Johannesburg union for the past three months following an alleged player revolt against his pragmatic coaching style.
Mitchell said he was eager to continue his coaching career in South Africa and plans to remain proactive during his suspension.
“At this stage I’ve been in the game for 18 years, directly in coaching, so there’s the ability to go into the media … thinking about imparting knowledge in coaching the coaches throughout the country,” Mitchell told Ballz Visual Radio about his immediate plans.
Mitchell made it clear that his goal is to return to coaching full time. “I’ve been in two major development jobs [at the Western Force and the Lions] since the All Blacks so it might be time for me to go into a good structure and a reliable organisation going forward,” said Mitchell.
“Right now, obviously, I’m still suspended and going through a hearing but I’m in a very good legal position and I just need to trust the process and the truth will eventually come out.”
Mitchell, asked what advise he would give under-fire Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer – whose current 42 percent win ratio is the worst of any Springbok mentor since Carel du Plessis (37 percent) in 1997 – echoed the sentiments of former Springbok World Cup-winning coach Jake White that he should trust his structures.
“I think the advise by Jake is exceptional advise. You’ve got to stand by what you believe in and be convicted to that. Heyneke needs to be congratulated on that.
“In saying that, he needs to be thoughtful of his application to make adjustments. I think there’s exceptional talent in the country and while people may see it as a rebuilding phase and the team having a lack of experience, it still comes down to execution. If you look at the weekend, they certainly had a far greater attacking intent, but their execution needs to improve.”
Mitchell said he would overhaul the current backline and introduce a string of young, inventive players into the back division and employ a more expanse game plan.
“I, personally, would love to see a backline of … the development of [Francois] Hougaard’s pass, [Johan] Goosen, [Pat] Lambie, [Juan] De Jongh, JP Pietersen back, [Bryan] Habana and I think Jaco Taute and Francois Steyn could really have a crack for the fullback position,” said Mitchell.
“I think that side would have a far greater attacking intent, certainly have the ability to beat a player one-on-one. I’d like to see the outsides get a lot more ball and they can still maintain a good set-piece and a tactical kicking game, which has always been a great strength of the Boks,” he added
18 Sep 2012, 22:49 pm
@grant10-444: He has my vote!
18 Sep 2012, 23:09 pm
@grant10-444: I will vote for that backline.
18 Sep 2012, 23:35 pm
@grant10-444: Yes that could be a excellent backline.
So Mitch still wants to coach here, but in a good structure and a reliable organisation. Could only be Bulls, Stormers/Province or Sharks here in South Africa. Most definitely will not be Kings as they are still building. Doubt it is Cheetahs either. Can only be one of the big 3.
If he is talking about Boks backline, could it be with the Boks? Remember reading once Meyer saying he was good friedns with Mitch and Plum for that matter.
I am actually pleased he is still in South Africa. He is a fine coach. Have no idea what went on at the Lions with him and the players, but he sure as heck made them a great cc team last year. This year there were just too many players out injured and one can’t judge him on their Super Rugby performance because of that.
Where is Carlos? Hope he is still around. Meyer needs to give him a call.
18 Sep 2012, 23:38 pm
@Puma-447: typo – friends
19 Sep 2012, 01:47 am
How have Australia fared in Super 15 vis-a-vis SA?
In the two years since the conferences and S15 came into being they have produced one Super Rugby champion and one Super Rugby wooden-spooner. SA has produced no champion and one wooden-spooner.
19 Sep 2012, 09:33 am
@wnbb-417:
Jan Coetzee seems like a top guy.
Interesting observation he made referring to Danie Craven about the country coming first.
Effectively he said that once a player pulls on the national jersey, provincialism should be forgotten.
Forgotten to me is that message from the past for a lot of folk on these boards.
19 Sep 2012, 10:32 am
@Transformation-315: Transie should I hate all black people just because a minority murder and rape? In a similar vein why punish all the springboks and springbok supporters who were against apartheid by denying them rugby? Our faulty politics were punished, let that be that. There is a very good reason why Madiba kept the springbok emblem and used Rugby to unite.
19 Sep 2012, 10:43 am
@Transformation-432: Treverton!!!? Fark. If you said Glenwood or Northwood I would take it as a severe insult… But Treverton you being a c.unt.
a KZN Waterford if ever there was one…
19 Sep 2012, 10:46 am
@Heavens Game-452: HG Northwood have more than one springbok to their credit and more than just a few international cricketers.
19 Sep 2012, 10:53 am
@Skeppie-453: A proper Johnny come lately school
19 Sep 2012, 10:56 am
@Skeppie-451: who is talking about “HATING” anyone?
you’re seriously misguided if you think BANNING the Springboks because the team was NOT picked on merit amounted to hating all white people! rif yourself of that notion. FIFA banned SA from international football and the majority of the football playing/loving population in this country applauded them even though the likes of jomo sono, kaizer motaung, kalamazoo mokone, “horse” mokoung, jimmy joubert couldn’t play in world cups and pit themselves against the likes of johan cruyff, berti vogts, pele who were their teammates in america at the time…
no normal sport in an abnormal society!
19 Sep 2012, 10:57 am
@Transformation-455: you equating rape and murder to institutionalised bigotry is fecking ridiculous!
19 Sep 2012, 10:59 am
@Skeppie-451: you equating rape and murder to institutionalised bigotry is fecking ridiculous!
19 Sep 2012, 11:12 am
@Skeppie-451: “Transie should I hate all black people just because a minority murder and rape?” – so it’s only black people that murder & rape in this country?
19 Sep 2012, 11:25 am
@Transformation-458: Ah Transie let’s not twist words here. My point was simply why use sport to punish a bad political system? You view is that all bok games during apartheid should be expunged from history, how is that fair? There were many, many white springboks who were against apartheid, who voted against the nats, who were good people. Why should their contributions to the game we love be destroyed? And no Transie it’s not just black people who commit crime, it’s BAD people, not people defined by a skin colour.
19 Sep 2012, 11:26 am
@Transformation-457: Why is it ridiculous?
19 Sep 2012, 11:27 am
“I, personally, would love to see a backline of … the development of [Francois] Hougaard’s pass, [Johan] Goosen, [Pat] Lambie, [Juan] De Jongh, JP Pietersen back, [Bryan] Habana and I think Jaco Taute and Francois Steyn could really have a crack for the fullback position,” said Mitchell.
Not much different from a back line I posted before the English series. Mine was:
Hougaard, Lambie, de Jongh, Ebersohn, Habana, JPP, Aplon.
Of course I was ridiculed about the “size” of the back line players.
Interesting to see that Mitchell does not see Fransie as 1st choice inside centre and also not as an automatic choice at full back.
Mmmmmm….interesting that…..very interesting.
19 Sep 2012, 11:41 am
@Skeppie-459: so why ask me if you should hate black people then?
@Skeppie-460: which country do you know about that was sanctioned by the UN, made a pariah by the rest of the world for having high murder and rape stats?
your assertion is absurd and the fact that you don’t see it is….ag never mind.
why do you think England cancelled their cricket tour when the SA government tried to bulldoze them not to pick Basil d’ Oliviera? they could’ve dropped him and said as you suggest “we won’t deny our selves the pleasure of playing test cricket in SA because of a moralist stance, basil tough one lad we’re leaving you to appease the racists”
19 Sep 2012, 11:44 am
@Skeppie-459: “let’s not twist words here. My point was simply why use sport to punish a bad political system?”
because the “sport” was NOT divorced from the system! in the same way that people couldn’t live in the same neighbourhoods, ride the same trains etc people of colour weren’t allowed to were that green jersey, it was reserved exclusively for whites…is that not immoral in your mind?
19 Sep 2012, 11:55 am
@Transformation-462: Apologies, I take back the word hate, bad choice of words.
You are being too literal here Trans, I was using an analogy. All my point is (veering away from your word gfencing) is that personally I don’t think sportsmen should be sidelined to punish bad politics. Apartheid was an abomination and the world rightly so punished the architects of that political system. don’t think sport needed to come into it. I also don’t think comments like yours about erasing bok history because of the political system is fair.
19 Sep 2012, 11:58 am
@Transformation-463: @Transformation-463: They are different. In a government everyone votes, even if you voted against the government of the day you at least had the opportunity to vote. Did SARU conduct a voting system for alll boks to decide whether they wanted to allow people not of the same skin colour to play for the boks? And even if they did (which they clearly did not) would it be fair to erase the records of the bok players who wanted rugby to be open to everyone?
19 Sep 2012, 12:01 pm
@Skeppie-459:
The fact of the matter is Skeppie, that those Bok teams did not represent the WHOLE of SA. They only represented a portion of the country. Therefor their records should indicate that or be destroyed.
The fact that Tommy Bedford or Morne du Plesis were against Apartheid did not mean that they represented ALL the people of SA when they ran onto the field. They represented only the white minority back then.
That is what transformation intended, isn’t it? A whole new beginning leaving the past behind. You can’t build your new house on the ruins of your old home that burnt down. You’ll always experience problems somewhere along the line and that is exactly what we see in our rugby.
19 Sep 2012, 12:06 pm
@nama1-466: So nama is it fair then to erase all of bok history pre 1992/3/4 and presume they were all racists? Surely not. I agree that it should be understood that there may have been a lot of players of colour who could have been boks during that period and we should never lose sight of that but trying to erase history is equally not fair. “Sorry Morne, because of a system you were against we are going to erase your proud acheivements from history”
19 Sep 2012, 12:07 pm
@nama1-466: Equally nama should we indicate on all black players post 1994′s records that they were potentially quota players and could have been selected because of the colour of their skin? Or should we just erase 1994-2012?
19 Sep 2012, 12:14 pm
@Skeppie-465: you are being very naive if you think the tentacles of the apartheid government didn’t reach SARFU or Danie Craven or whoever was in charge! The Springbok team that played then did not represent the whole country which is why in places like New Zealand it was viewed as an abomination that SARFU would YIELD to the government’s decree that NO MAORIS can tour SA and play their colour exclusive Springboks!
19 Sep 2012, 12:21 pm
@Skeppie-465:
How long did it take SARR to go up against the regime? They reneged on their promise to the ALL Blacks that anybody in their team would be welcome for the 1970 tour, including Maoris, after John Vorster’s famous Loskom Dam speech.
The first multi racial team was only selected in 1976 and even then a guy like Jan Ellis, who was given the captaincy of the team, refused to play in a multi racial team because it was “against the laws” of the country.
It cost him his place in the Bok team to face the AB that year but he would rather give up the chance to play against the All Blacks than play in a team where POC were also represented. So you are saying that the records of a guy like Jan Ellis should stay there forever, as if he represented South Africa?
19 Sep 2012, 12:28 pm
@Transformation-469: Ok so wipe all the records clean and presume they were all racists…that’s your solution?
19 Sep 2012, 12:32 pm
@nama1-470: Yes nama I am, it should be known what the situation was and each individual like him would have to live with himself but he is being judged on his sporting ability not his political preferences. So do we now say that any rugby player worldwide who we think is a racist will have his record erased? Do we also include players with criminal records…..or those who were just tossers? Come on, everybody knows how bad it was that SARU did not follow the correct moral path but erasing records and labelling everyone from the era a racist is palpably unfair and I think you and Transie know it as well.
19 Sep 2012, 12:35 pm
@Transformation-455: Allow me to rephrase that; my slogan for the last 14-odd years has been: No “abnormal” sport in a “normal” society.
19 Sep 2012, 12:42 pm
@Skeppie-471: you’re hung up on the fact that some players may have not been racist when the jersey they were wearing and the WAY the team was selected was in fact racist!
i don’t know what you want me to say because you are now denying that the Springbok teams then were selected based on colour and thus racist!
19 Sep 2012, 12:44 pm
@nama1-470: Ellis played for the Boks against the All Blacks in 1976.
19 Sep 2012, 12:47 pm
@Skeppie-472:
It’s about the system that denied other people a chance to represent their country, Skeppie. Nobody is ” labelling everyone from the era a racist” and you know it.
There records, if they are kept forever, will give the impression that they represented ALL of the people of SA and they never did as you very well know.
Jewish sport people have their Macabi games where they represent the SA Jewish community, not SA.
Likewise, the Bok teams of pre 1992, represented the SA white community (Afrikaans and English), not SA.
19 Sep 2012, 12:47 pm
@Transformation-474: No Transie I am not, I agree that the selection policies were inherently racist, full stop. I am only saying that you cannot erase all records because of it as that would mean erasing the records of some boks who were against the racist selection policies and that is not fair. I also disagree that sport should be overruled by politics. Just because I don’t agree with Iran’s political landscape doesn’t mean I cannot appreciate Iran’s soccer team…they are seperate issues for me.
19 Sep 2012, 12:49 pm
@nama1-476: Ok how about this for a compromise….we keep the records and have a starred footnote that states players of colour were not allowed to be selected? Fair? I understand where you are coming from Nama, I really do but I think you are bringing politics to close to the sport we love.
19 Sep 2012, 12:51 pm
If anything, the statistics suggest that if we did pick POC during Apartheid, we would have been pretty much unbeatable.
19 Sep 2012, 12:53 pm
@Skeppie-477: the records of an “inherently racist” team mean what? they didn’t represent all people of this country!
19 Sep 2012, 12:59 pm
Funny how the players that didn’t represent the whole of SA had a positive win record against the AB’s and the players who represent the whole of SA has a negative record against the AB’s.
19 Sep 2012, 13:01 pm
@stormer in a teacup-475:
Sorry, I should’ve phrased it clearer. Let me do it this way.
1st test: Jan Ellis and Boland Coetzee
South Africa won 16-7. Then Jan gets dropped for the next three test matches because of his refusal to play in a multi race team. A young Theuns Stofberg made his debut, still only 21 years old.
2nd test: Theuns Stofberg and Boland Coetzee
3rd test:Theuns Stofberg and Boland Coetzee
4th test: Klippies Kritzinger and Boland Coetzee
19 Sep 2012, 13:05 pm
@nama1-482:
That was the flankers in that series. Morne Dup at 8.
19 Sep 2012, 13:06 pm
@Skeppie-472: Skeppie, you are being ridiculous. Let say SA made a rule back then that only men can swim, or be sellected for swimming colours etc. Only men. You happen to know a woman that can swim circles around you, but due to her being a woman will never be allowed to swim or even be sellected for the country. Should we praise you, and hold your records in esteem when in the record books it showed you were the best swimmer in SA in 1968, when we all know that there was someone at the time who was better than you, who was not allowed to swim. That makes your record **** in my book as it was never honestly obtained. You were hypothetically sellected due to your ***, not ability. Same as those old Boks. They were sellected on skin colour first, never mind ability.
19 Sep 2012, 13:16 pm
@rossoneri-484: While I get your point, and it’s essentially a good one, that’s not a very good example to illustrate it. Because the reality is that the best men will ALWAYS outswim the best females. That’s not sexist or narrow-minded – that’s just nature. So even if you selected from everyone, the swimming team would still be all male. Which is why we have men’s and women’s events. And, following your metaphor, this could possibly mean white and black rugby teams. And I’m sure this is no what you intended.
19 Sep 2012, 13:17 pm
@Skeppie-478:
There’ll have to be a compromise somehow.
Just on another note. Have you seen that when you go on SARU’s website, there is no records of the pre-1992 SARU that played under SACOS? Why not?
Were their records destroyed?
We’ll always have this kind of discourse imho for the simple reason that we started wrong in 1992? when the agreement re amalgamation between the different rugby unions were forged in Kimberley. I remember clearly Louis Luyt boasting in a TV interview that it took rugby just “this weekend” to reach an agreement while sports like cricket, athletics and others were negotiating months on end to reach an agreement. Now how can you overcome 100 years of playing separate in 48 hours?
As I said, if you build your new house on the ruins of the old, burnt down one, you’ll always have to plaster over the cracks, put on a new layer of paint to hide the deficiencies.
Exactly what our rugby administrators now have to do constantly.
19 Sep 2012, 13:17 pm
@Transformation-480: Transformation, I think what Skeppie is grappling with is that to him, these guys were lauded as HERO’S on the rugby field. Legends of the game from conversations between fathers and sons through at least a couple of generations.
To someone like me, they were the equivalent of evil. People that must have known, as people that play sport, that the system was unfair, and dead wrong, but despite this, will keep their mouth shut and continue with the abnormality. After all, if the Bok sellection pool is smaller, your chances are better right?
Today we look at people like Morne du Plessis, and Naas Botha, and I would like to say: “You are not an evil racist man, by all accounts, why were you willingly part of something so evil and wrong.” Did it boil down to just not having courage. If so, then that is what should be reflected in those record books pre 1994. Players who just did not have courage.
19 Sep 2012, 13:18 pm
@Mr Black-481:
Seems you missed the part when the Boks had a positive win ratio against the AB team that could not pick its #1 players.
Hmm probably what you guys are going though now…..maybe.
19 Sep 2012, 13:20 pm
@katman-485: Focus on the analogy. That was the point. Don’t get bogged down in the science.
19 Sep 2012, 13:20 pm
@rossoneri-487: hehe You have no clue. Shame
19 Sep 2012, 13:23 pm
@katman-485: I didn’t even finish reading your post, and you know my blog personality well enough that I would never support any form of apartheid. Ever.
19 Sep 2012, 13:27 pm
@Zandberg Jansen-490: Truth is. I don’t hate those old “Springboks” anymore. To me they form two groups. One group that actually believed in apartheid policies and the politics of the day, and one group that are simply a bunch of gutless cowards.
19 Sep 2012, 13:30 pm
@Zandberg Jansen-490: Which group do you fall into I wonder. Racist or gutless coward. I’ll be complimentary and say the Gutless coward group.
19 Sep 2012, 13:36 pm
@rossoneri-484: @katman-485:
Equestrian events are the only code were men and women can compete against each other individually.
19 Sep 2012, 13:38 pm
@rossoneri-484: Ok so essentially you beleive all springboks pre 94 should have their records erased, all of them? So essentially even the boks who opposed apartheid and were pro skin colour not being a factor…even they should have their records erased? In order to be fair then should we not erase all records up untill today? As some selection between 94 and 2012 have also been based on skin colour.
19 Sep 2012, 13:39 pm
@Jeraldjay-494: Surely events such as shooting should be equal too?
19 Sep 2012, 13:41 pm
@Jeraldjay-494:
where
19 Sep 2012, 13:44 pm
@rossoneri-492: And this is where I call you up on a major bullshit post. If you were offered Springbok colours in anything, regardless of your political leanings, regardless of the era, you would have taken it. Claiming lofty principles after the fact is about as believable as Malema’s tender credentials.
Standing up for your beliefs is one thing. But claiming your saintliness (and reducing everyone else to either racists or cowards) is something else altogether. And no one here buys it.
19 Sep 2012, 13:46 pm
@rossoneri-492: Point taken. Gutless coward, I take it as a compliment. What makes you an expert on SA History and Politics?
19 Sep 2012, 13:54 pm
@katman-496:
After extensive research….. the only events at the London Games where men and women can compete against each other as individuals is Equestrian events and Sailing (London was the first Olympics where the rule was imposed).
19 Sep 2012, 13:55 pm
@nama1-486: I just think we over complicate things, for me personally sport should not be used as vehicle to punish or reward political issues. You guys are using rugby as a platform to discuss political issues……I am not saying your political opinions are incorrect I am just saying using sport it not the right way to do it.
19 Sep 2012, 13:59 pm
When all else fails and I mean all else, take away what will hurt the most.
19 Sep 2012, 14:06 pm
@rossoneri-487: It is impossible to have a discussion of this nature with someone who has been so badly affected by our countries political history. I am sorry that this is something that has affected our country and you personally. Let’s hope its something that never happpens again.
19 Sep 2012, 14:07 pm
@katman-498: Cheeky Watson said no to those Bok colours. And believe me, after seeing how harmful those colours are, I have not particular pains about them at all. Sometimes people have to stand up for what is right and what is wrong, and too many white South Africans, Springbok rugby players included, knew it was wrong, but did nothing.
You are saying that even if murderers were giving you Springbok colours you would take it? That is essentially what the Pre 1994 Boks did. Ask Biko and many others.
Like I said. Not bad people. Just cowards.
19 Sep 2012, 14:14 pm
@rossoneri-504: Ok now you are moving into the rabid non sensical fundamentalist space. So you classify all pre 1994 boks in the same way as murderers The instinct here is to hit back with an equally silly response but what’s the point? Those of us that want a better tomorrow need to put the past behind us and learn from our mistakes. Thise like you who need revenge to appease their bitterness are the speed bumps we need to get over as a country
19 Sep 2012, 14:14 pm
@rossoneri-504: Ja, whatever Rossi. You would have done exactly the same. After-the-fact bravery doesn’t count for poop.
19 Sep 2012, 14:19 pm
@rossoneri-504: Thats news to some honest rugby supporters… Come. Educate us.
Tell us when Cheeky the Liberator said no to Bok colours… That is, what year he was to be awarded these colours, which side he was supposed to be playing against, and the player who he would have usurped, obviously being the superior candidate for the position he surely must have been…
I suspect Cheeky did not have an opportunity to decline a Bok cap, not due to his liberation “credentials” but rather because he just might not have been close to good enough…
But then again maybe I just dont know enough about these “liberation” Boks who said NO to the Green and Gold…
So educate please… If you actually can.
19 Sep 2012, 14:21 pm
@Skeppie-501:
That’s a bit idealistic, I think.
The days are long gone where people stopped a war to play sport before they continue with the war again, like during the AB War.
Today sport may very well be the reason to start a war.
Sport is entrenched in the lives of many people…as is politics, especially in a country like ours with its unique history. Impossible to separate them nowadays.
“You guys are using rugby as a platform to discuss political issues……”
Only because the politics of the day had a direct hand in how rugby was played back then. How can you separate them now? It was because of politics that certain people were not allowed to play for the Bok team.
19 Sep 2012, 14:25 pm
@nama1-508: “Only because the politics of the day had a direct hand in how rugby was played back then.”… Nothing is new under the sun. Politics then, politics now.
“It was because of politics that certain people were not allowed to play for the Bok team.”… Racial policies then, racial policies now…
Nothing new under the sun.
19 Sep 2012, 14:26 pm
At WP Cricket they invited all ex players from the old WPCB (non-whites) and WPCA (everbody else) to Newlands to hand everybody their official colours. This gesture was embraced by the entire WP Cricketing fraternity.
The WP Rugby fraternity fail to acknowledge any player before 1994. That’s why the old boys are not involved with the current structures.
19 Sep 2012, 14:38 pm
As a 21-year old, Watson played for the Eastern Province team which lost by one point to the visiting All Blacks in 1976. Mona Badela, black journalist and president of the KwaZakhele Rugby Union (Kwaru), invited him to practise his Christian convictions by coaching a black side in the townships. When Watson took the black rugby team to practise at the Saint George’s sports ground in Port Elizabeth, they met with strong opposition.
Watson was selected as a wing for the Junior Springboks in 1976. However he declined an invitation to participate in the trails for the 1976 senior Springbok team.
When: 1976
Against who: All Blacks
What player: Chris Pope / Gerrie Germishuys ? Edrich Krantz
“I suspect Cheeky did not have an opportunity to decline a Bok cap, not due to his liberation “credentials” but rather because he just might not have been close to good enough…”
Playing for the Junior Boks and then get an invitation to the trials for the senior Bok team, indicates to me that he was pretty close to becoming a Bok.
The three players who played at wing in that series are not really known as great players, are they?
19 Sep 2012, 14:40 pm
@Heavens Game-509:
So how do we change that?
19 Sep 2012, 14:42 pm
@nama1-511:
Nama, Gerrie Germishuys is one of my all time favourite Boks.
19 Sep 2012, 14:46 pm
@Jeraldjay-510:
Exactly Jeraldjay.
Some people have no problem that the history of rugby under SARU (pre-1992) be expunged but they are very quick to feel threatened when somebody just mentions that the same be done for the history of rugby under the SARR.
Probably want people to believe that the “rest of SA” only started to play rugby after 1992.
19 Sep 2012, 14:47 pm
@nama1-508: I understand your point here, no-one is arguing how wrong it was to exclude players based on their skin colour. I am not defending SARU. All I am saying is that it is not fair to erase everyones records based on a decision by a governing body. Maybe its a bit personal for me, as a white male I am not happy being type casted as a racist.
19 Sep 2012, 14:47 pm
@nama1-511: Ahem… How does declining an invite to participate in trials translate to “declining Bok colours”…
He must have been awarded Bok colours to actually be able to decline them…
Ag, maybe I either see through or just dont understand this constant revisionism of Bok and SA history at the least of lies and exaggerations at worst….
19 Sep 2012, 14:52 pm
@Jeraldjay-513:
Not a very skillful wing imo.
Speed to burn though.
19 Sep 2012, 14:57 pm
Compared to a sport like soccer, rugby did absolutely nothing to object to the Nats sports policy. Early on, the leading black and white teams defied the government and arranged games against each other in Swaziland. A little later a game was organised between Highlands Park and Pirates at Orlando stadium. Tso Modise, the PSL head at the time explained to me a few years ago what happened. Apparently, when the Highlands bus arrived at Soweto it was met by an enormous police contingent who said they couldn’t go any further as they didn’t have permission to enter the township, let alone play a soccer game there. After an hour of stalemate, Tso took aside the officer in charge and pointed out that there were 50,000 black supporters in the stadium who’d been waiting for hours and were now very, very restless, and that if the game was cancelled he didn’t think that they’d take it very well. The officer finally got the message and let them in.
Now, those white players at Highlands Park didn’t back down and remain passive about the Nats sports laws, yet our rugby establishment kept silent.
19 Sep 2012, 15:00 pm
@nama1-517:
Poor old Gerrie really was shown his arse against the ’74 lions.
19 Sep 2012, 15:03 pm
@Heavens Game-516:
There was a possibility of Bok colors at least when he got the invite, remember?
Also if you take into account that he did play as a junior Bok against the very same All Blacks and did well for EP against them, that he probably was favorite to take up one wing spot.
I see you conveniently left out your assertion that “he just might not have been close to good enough…”
19 Sep 2012, 15:04 pm
@David-519: and in ’81 he ruled against the Lions!
19 Sep 2012, 15:07 pm
@nama1-520: Nams who do you support provincially and nationally?
19 Sep 2012, 15:11 pm
@David-519:
He was….. but then again, they all were.
That was a great Lions team. It was that tour that started my interest in rugby. Bought my first pair of rugby boots while they were here…. in Jan Ellis’ sport shop in Windhoek, where we lived at the time.
19 Sep 2012, 15:12 pm
@Zandberg Jansen-521:
Yup, 4 tries. But look at the team.
19 Sep 2012, 15:13 pm
@Zandberg Jansen-521:
1980.
19 Sep 2012, 15:19 pm
@Zandberg Jansen-521:
Lions were here in 1980.
He did have a good series if only because of the counter attacking abilties of Gysie Pienaar, who were absolutely brilliant in that series.
@Skeppie-522:
Bokke, WP/Stormers.
In the past it was France because of two players: Jean-Pierre Rives and Serge Blanco.
Also because all my friends were AB and I tend not to follow the crowd.
19 Sep 2012, 15:19 pm
@nama1-520: A possibility? Then a favourite…?
Sheezus, Nama, I actually reckon you either telling porkies or dont know what the fck you talking about…
But nevertheless judge them by the heroes they have and it seems Cheeky is a “liberating” hero to many… Of all the 2 bit heroes to pick, pick one who maybe could have been a Bok, and was too chicken to take up arms against his “apparent” aggressor.
19 Sep 2012, 15:25 pm
@nama1-526: So all your peers supported the AB’s and not the Boks because of apartheid?
19 Sep 2012, 15:31 pm
@Skeppie-505: Read Skeppie. I said “accepted Bok caps from Murderers.” The only thing I accused your pre-1994 Boks of are being cowards! GUTLESS COWARDS!
19 Sep 2012, 15:36 pm
@nama1-511: Thank you Nama. Like I said. They had two choices. They were either full blown racists, or gutless cowards. Some players of the game made a choice to stick to their principles, be that to embrace racism or reject it, and some people chose to be cowards.
19 Sep 2012, 15:40 pm
@rossoneri-529: And the only thing I am accusing you of is being a racist. We do not need bigots like you in our country.
19 Sep 2012, 15:40 pm
@rossoneri-529: Yup, a coward like Cheeky Watson… An Eastern Cape speciality it seems… rather accept a cap from a thief and a liar than from a murderer… Honour amongst thieves I suppose… Nevertheless still cowards – scared that the truth doesnt fit a neat generalisation.
19 Sep 2012, 15:43 pm
@Heavens Game-527:
Oh man, HG!!!
Still not saying anything about “he just might not have been close to good enough…”
Go ahead and deflect.
@Skeppie-528:
Yes.
You sound surprise.
We also supported the rebel cricket teams of Graham Gooch, Lawrence Rowe, Kim Hughes against the SA team.
Boris Becker against Kevin Curren.
Davey Moore against Charlie Weir.
John Tate/Mike Weaver against Kallie Knoetze/Gerrie Coetzee
Any team but the Bokke or anybody else against a white SA sportsman..
That’s the way it was.
19 Sep 2012, 15:46 pm
@nama1-533: Sad times indeed…
19 Sep 2012, 15:46 pm
@Heavens Game-527: Cheeky is not my Hero, just an example of a rugby player who was not a coward like some others. Strange though how he is hated for this stance by, shall we say, some of the bloggers who don’t tan as easily as I do.
I have often wondered whether it is because he highlights the one shame that many have to live with. When they all saw the government of the day was unjust, they kept quiet and enjoyed the fruits, whilst the Watson house burnt to the ground. While Justice Albie Sack was bombed in his car, while Biko was murdered. etc etc etc And today, you want to talk about pre-1994 rugby heros? Hahahahahaha.
19 Sep 2012, 15:48 pm
@nama1-533: No not surprised at all, I cannot claim that I wouldn’t have done the same thing so no judging here, just interested.
19 Sep 2012, 15:51 pm
@rossoneri-535: And have you ever put yourself in the shoes of a white person?
19 Sep 2012, 15:51 pm
@nama1-533: A trial is hardly close… A trial could be made up of anything from 2 – 4 teams of possibly 20 per team…
Say 80 players for a trial with 2 wings per team at least with possibly 3 in contention considering that a coach could pick a 15 on the wing…
We then have 3 x 4 possible candidates… So, Cheeky as a trialist could possibly have been one of 12 players who could have been picked for the Boks…
Hardly close… I suspect his refusal of a place in the trials was more due to being scared of failure more than a crisis of conscience…
19 Sep 2012, 15:53 pm
@Skeppie-531: Skeppie you are advocating that the pre-1994 Boks records and achievement must be lauded and praised. I’m saying they were probably not all just a bunch of racist. No. I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and just call them cowards. Because they accepted a situation where they exclude fellow citizens. What is hitting the nerve is that their stance can be related to many South African who made choices in those days. And if you twitching in your seat, I’ll say if the shoe fits. That does not make me a racist for saying it out loud. But keep pretending and while you at it. Go kiss your poster of Danie Craven who said no person of colour will EVER be a Bok!
19 Sep 2012, 15:54 pm
@Zandberg Jansen-534:
That it was. Sad indeed.
How then can people blame those who are still not willing to make the paradigm shift?
Some were quick to make it, some took a bit of time (I was one of them) and some will never make that shift. Should they be castigated forever for not making that paradigm shift?
19 Sep 2012, 15:56 pm
@rossoneri-535: I suspect his “heroic” stance is nothing more than romantic revisionism gone all wild and wonderful… I doubt any Watson house was burnt to the ground by anything other than faulty wires…
The Tales of Cheeky Watson, the Liberator seem to belong increasingly with Jack and the Beanstalk or Little Red Riding Hood.
That is the real truth here.
19 Sep 2012, 16:01 pm
@Skeppie-537: You mean, all people, not just white. Being faced with a tough decision, that can have a massive impact on your life and family, but will allow you to hold onto your principles is a matter of character. There are many white people even in the dark ol days of apartheid SA, that held onto principles and their families suffered for it, and have their self respect. It all boils down to what you can live with. Some people just develop amnesia and speak in hushed tones about what their Dad used to say around the dinner table in 1982.
People just have to deal. Then we can all move on.
19 Sep 2012, 16:01 pm
@rossoneri-535: Shut up Rossi. This is starting to get really embarrassing for you. I understand your stance, but the extremes of your statements are cringeworthy. Keep quiet for a while and think about it.
19 Sep 2012, 16:01 pm
Danie Craven was a great man and a great administrator… He puts the current SARU fools right in the shade of the shadow of an ANZAC outhouse…
He certainly shows up the “hero” Cheeky Watson to be nothing more than a snake-oil salesman in terms of morality or substance…
19 Sep 2012, 16:05 pm
@rossoneri-539: The reason I asked about being in a white persons shoes is that clearly you have never thought about it. I will bet most of the boks pre 1994 had no idea the wrong their government were doing. They were sad pawns in the whole sick game of apartheid. Just like you seem to be infected with hate, they were probably indoctrinated to beleive non white people were the enemy. Why now take away their rugby acheivements? What has this to do with politics? Instead of wanting to punish for the past why not build a better environment going forward?
19 Sep 2012, 16:06 pm
@katman-543: Twitching twitching twitching….:lol:
19 Sep 2012, 16:07 pm
@Heavens Game-538:
OK, let’s start from scratch wrt trials back then. A team consisted of 17 players. 15 starters and 2 reserves
1. 6 teams play Currie Cup.
2. Coach invites players to the trials. I’m not too sure he will invite every wing who played at the time.
3. Cheeky put in a sterling performance for EP against the AB. Got selected for the Junior Boks.
4. Gets invite to Bok trials.
So no, I don’t think they would’ve invited 80 players (12 wings) to a trial.
You make up your mind whether Cheeky had a chance of making the team…but then again, you already have.
Most rugby pundits back then believe he would’ve played.
19 Sep 2012, 16:09 pm
@Skeppie-545: Hahahahahahahaha.
That was very funny. I’m done. OMG. So nobody had a clue? Hahahahahaha. Apartheid Government put the Men in Black to shame!
19 Sep 2012, 16:13 pm
@rossoneri-548: If it makes you feel better to beleive all white people are evil then go ahead, I am sorry you need to feel this way. Think about it and then come over to our new country where we actually judge people based on who they are as opposed to the colour of their skin.
19 Sep 2012, 16:21 pm
@Heavens Game-544: danie craven was nothing but a racist! a broederbonder that isolated your Natal for the benefit of what today you refer to as the “North South Alliance”
you are such a flip flopper, one minute you don’t like the WP/NTvl alliance the next minute you’re lauding one of its architects
19 Sep 2012, 16:23 pm
@Transformation-550: Transie regardless of his political beliefs he was still a brilliant rugby man.
19 Sep 2012, 16:24 pm
@nama1-547: Which rugby pundit, Nama…? And not your Uncle, Aunty either okay….
19 Sep 2012, 16:28 pm
@Skeppie-545: you are talking nonsense now, they had NO IDEA that no person of colour was allowed to play in Bok jerseys? you are talking rubbish!
people think it was the nasty Nats government that made apartheid flourish, meanwhile it was ordinary people that sneered at post offices, that refused to share amenities, that would boycott shows at the opera house if their kids were performing with black kids etc. it wasn’t some nasty bunch on grey haired man acting like Overlords!
your sanitised view of what SA was needs a bit of mud in it
19 Sep 2012, 16:30 pm
@Skeppie-551: the two cannot be separated it can’t be that malema is a good stick fighting administrator so him being a doos every day should be overlooked!
19 Sep 2012, 16:30 pm
@Transformation-550: Lol… Is it because Craven was white that you reckon he is racist…?
Are all whites racist Transie?
Are all Rhodesians racist Transie?
Maybe you got to realise that not all whites who don’t open their legs, bend over or let you shag them are racist, umfana…
Maybe they just reckon you are buttugly instead…
(Except Rossi of course
)
19 Sep 2012, 16:31 pm
@Transformation-553: No Transie you missed the point. Yes white people knew players of colour were not allowed to play but they were indoctrinated to beleive that this was the way it should be. It is only after white people’s eyes were opened and they learned that black people were not monsters in a township looking to do them harm that they realised how crazy their thinking had been. If Madiba taught us reconcilliation why would you now advocate erasing sport records of the past?
19 Sep 2012, 16:31 pm
@Heavens Game-555: are you dumb?
what he said and did buddy
19 Sep 2012, 16:32 pm
@Skeppie-556: are you speaking for yourself or this a GENERALLY held view?
19 Sep 2012, 16:33 pm
@Heavens Game-541: Fairytales you say? Do you agree with Skeppie on the Men in Black movie trick with the sunglasses the Apartheid government pulled on all its preferred citizens?
Cheeky Watson
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Daniel “Cheeky” Watson (born 1955) was one of the first white South African rugby union players to participate in a mixed race rugby game, during the period when mixed-race activities were forbidden by apartheid legislation.
The Watsons were subsequently threatened, ostracised, and shot at. Their home was burned down in 1986,[7]. Friends stopped visiting, either because they were being threatened by authorities, or because they disagreed with the Watsons’ political stance.[1]
19 Sep 2012, 16:33 pm
@Transformation-554: You don’t have to throw in the anti Malema bit Transie deep down I know you are a man of reason. I just wish you maybe realised that there are more anti racist white people than you think in this country.
19 Sep 2012, 16:36 pm
@Transformation-558: I suppose it’s a personal view but it’s something I saw a lot growing up and now leading into the new SA. Almost all of my friends and peers have had their eyes opened in a big way, even the guys who’s parents made them beleive that black people were the enemy and beleived that they had a right to treat black people like inferior human beings have started to come around.
19 Sep 2012, 16:37 pm
@rossoneri-559: It’s funny Cheeky Watson can defraud the poor people of the EC all he wants and you will still hold him in high esteem. It’s a pity you cannot let go of the inherent racist within you.
19 Sep 2012, 16:38 pm
@Skeppie-556: madiba is one man and he certainly doesn’t think for a nation. he was granted his wish to keep the springbok emblem out of respect but certainly not out people accepting pre-democracy springbok history…go watch invictus again and see the dramatisation of that moment…
19 Sep 2012, 16:39 pm
@Skeppie-561:
Guess what
They’re still the enemy
19 Sep 2012, 16:44 pm
@Dawn-564: No man, that’s racist.
19 Sep 2012, 16:44 pm
@rossoneri-559: You mean a similar movie trick to the SA Government of the day…? Men in Black may actually be apt…
I dont see you combating institutionalised corruption, legislated genocide by neglect as in prevention of administration of ARV’s, brutality against South Africans at Marikana because a shareholders happens to be a high ranking ANC member, racial employment policies, racial investment policies, sanction of murder and rape by neglect…
Is it because you dont see these things either?
I suspect it is because you are nothing but a cowardly liar and hypocrite…
19 Sep 2012, 16:44 pm
@Skeppie-562: Why don’t you tell me about it. I’m all ears. What did Cheeky do to make white people hate him so much. Seriously. I want to know.
19 Sep 2012, 16:45 pm
@Skeppie-560: “I just wish you maybe realised that there are more anti racist white people than you think in this country.”
i know that, i grew up around white folk who weren’t racist most of my life so this is not even a point…i was introduced to rugby but wasn’t encouraged/indoctrinated to hate the bokke but to see them for what they are – a team that was selected on racial grounds and did not represent me as a child of this country whatsoever – that being said, i’m a Bok supporter!
19 Sep 2012, 16:45 pm
@Transformation-563: Ok well on this one I will side with Madiba, you take the other side
19 Sep 2012, 16:46 pm
@Transformation-568: Ok Ok, it’s nearly 5 o clock……are we drawing a line under this?
19 Sep 2012, 16:47 pm
@Transformation-557: What are you talking about now?
Why you deflecting?
Scared of another Rhodesian rogering?
19 Sep 2012, 16:47 pm
@Skeppie-570:
Guess what
You’ll never draw a line under this
19 Sep 2012, 16:48 pm
@Heavens Game-566: I never said the current government is perfect, and your deflection won’t get you out of this one. I asked whether you agreed that all white people were brain washed in the apartheid days, like the Men in Black guys operate, and thus cannot be held accountable for cowardly standing by and accepting the fruits of apartheid. Easy yes or no question.
19 Sep 2012, 16:48 pm
@rossoneri-567: I don’t hate him, it’s just symptomatic of our current political climate…if you were a part of the struggle you can do whatever you want in the new SA….you can steal millions meant to go towards helping the poor of this country, you can murder and get away with it, drive drunk, rape etc…as long as you were on the right side of the struggle you will be ok. Maybe spend more time looking at the SA of today and less of the SA of yesterday.
19 Sep 2012, 16:49 pm
@Dawn-572: ——————-
19 Sep 2012, 16:49 pm
@Heavens Game-566: blah blah blah…all hogwash…
19 Sep 2012, 16:51 pm
@rossoneri-573: Anyone who murdered, raped, beat, stole etc cannot use brainwashing as their excuse so no, they have none. Crime is crime. But people who were not activist’s against apartheid when they were 10, 15, 20 cannot exactly be blamed can they?
19 Sep 2012, 16:51 pm
@Skeppie-531: check this bigot calling other people bigots.. do these bigots even know what a bigot is.. and since when is this ‘your’ country.. and not hers?
you got some serious realignment to reenact in your head before you realize exactly who’s a bigot and who ain’t and secondly who’s country it is you’re supposedly defending
19 Sep 2012, 16:52 pm
@fitz1ella-578: its yours and mine Fitz, equally, no-one better and no-one worse. She is a bigot because she is a racist, pretty simple notion that.
19 Sep 2012, 16:54 pm
gym calls…
19 Sep 2012, 16:55 pm
@Skeppie-570: Ok Tranise I understand you will not divulge what you do for a living but can I guess…..A marketing executive?
19 Sep 2012, 16:55 pm
suddenly all the boertjies of the 80′s are enlightened new age liberals.. taking an enlightened stand against the horrific policy standards of their parents.
biggest pseudo hogwash dream ever to have entered anybody’s brainwashed brain.
there were only a few of such real boertjie liberals and they either died off or were castigated by their own piers as traitors.. eg Beyers Naude and Van Zyl Slabbert etc.
19 Sep 2012, 16:57 pm
Skeppie at 574.
You made allegations of fraud. So tell the story. Dont hit and run.
19 Sep 2012, 16:57 pm
@Skeppie-579: she might have more of a claim to ‘this country’ than you or I do.. her forebears didn’t come here from another continent where ours did.
19 Sep 2012, 16:59 pm
@Skeppie-579: how do you call someone who takes a stand against racist policies a ‘racist’ ? I think perhaps you got the term ‘racist’ a little confused in your brain.
19 Sep 2012, 17:00 pm
@Heavens Game-566:
The last resort of the defeated whitie in the new SA.
Bringing up the kak of the current government.
Give it up HG.
19 Sep 2012, 17:01 pm
@Transformation-558: Not necessarily, but I think the point he’s making is that propoganda plays a HUGE part in any setup like apartheid, and children are especially vulnerable to having their viewpoints skewed by what they learned. The separation was total and a lot of white kids in those days grew up with no social contact with blacks, other than seeing them as servants. The same happens with religious sects brainwashing kids. Remember too in those days we didn’t have the time of information channels we have today where any news you wanted to know was close to hand….the govt & your parents decided what kids saw on TV, in newspapers, heard on the radio etc, if you were growing up sheltered in middle class suburbia, he’s right, many people had little idea of what was happening. Can’t speak so much for the adults though, must be said…..I can ell you that the vast majority of those kids today hold radically different views to what their parents might have. With the odd exception of course
19 Sep 2012, 17:02 pm
@fitz1ella-584: and where did european forebears originally come from? We are ALL Africans, divided by time and colour
19 Sep 2012, 17:03 pm
@fitz1ella-584: I don’t beleive she has a bigger claim than I do, just like I do not beleive I have a bigger claim than she does. I am not better than her and she is not better than me. Why do you think that I beleive I have a bigger right to this country, all through the course of today I have stated the exact opposite?
19 Sep 2012, 17:04 pm
@fitz1ella-585: If a brown person discriminates against a white perso is that not racism?
19 Sep 2012, 17:04 pm
@fitz1ella-582: Care to list your struggle credentials, you phony c*cksucker?
And no, building outhouses in townships doesn’t count.
19 Sep 2012, 17:05 pm
@Atreides-587: That’s exactly what I was trying to say, well put! Apparently my attempt made me a man in black?
19 Sep 2012, 17:07 pm
@rossoneri-583: The point isn’t around fraud, the point is that you seem to be happy to excuse any action today as long as the perpertrator of that crime was a “struggle” hero.
19 Sep 2012, 17:07 pm
@Skeppie-589: It’s a very, very dangerous notion, this idea of SA belonging more to one race than another. In all of recorded history, that ay of thinking ha done more harm than almost any other notion.
The Defecane of black tribes displacing the indigenous san (who are the ONLY ones who have always been here, never left) a sthey spread down Africa
The Afrikaners displacing the black tribes as they spread north
The British displacing both as they tried to colonise
The afrikaners and apartheid
And still we see this attitude of ‘this land is mine, not yours”
Eish…maybe that’s just how it is and always will be?
19 Sep 2012, 17:09 pm
@Atreides-588: who says so, professors of modern paleontology, that you are in fact ‘African’ by descent..? They might still be wrong, non of that stuff is factually proven, though its taught in academic institutions as gospel.
so that asserts your claim on this country as your own?
So if you are ‘African’ how come your features and skin tone is so ‘different’ from somebody else who’s recent lineage is quite different to yours?
And then WHY in the name of the architect of all this diversity did your parents try and isolate your heritage as ‘different’ or superior or ‘apart’ from those distinctly and directly more ‘African’ in heritage than they were or you are.?
19 Sep 2012, 17:10 pm
@Atreides-587:
For some reason those views tend to congregate on News24.
The one thing I realised during the apartheid years, was the refusal of most white adults to see what effect the policy was having and how it was being enforced. Any discussion about apartheid was banned at the gatherings of most middle and upper class english speaking whites as “we don’t discuss politics”.
19 Sep 2012, 17:14 pm
@fitz1ella-595: Fitz my parents always taught me that I was no better or no worse than anyone else in thos world, I was taught to respect my elders and treat all people with respect…where does this drivel of yours come from?
19 Sep 2012, 17:15 pm
@fitz1ella-595: I do believe that, yes. I don;t believe in young earth theory, and I believe in evolution over many millenia.
I make no claim on this country as being more valid than anyone else who chooses to settle here and work towards a good life
In my beliefs, my near ancestry is caucasian, but my prehistoric ancestry, like all modern humans, is african.
My immediate forebears settled back here in the mid 1800′s, long before apartheid happened. My parents never tried that, I would say they were quietly complicit (ie not activists) rather than directly guilty. ie we were not raised in a racist manner, or to belittle or look down on anyone, but obviously in a separate way. There were many decent middle class whites in SA in those days who were good people, but did not necessarily have the will or courage or resources or education to take up a fight against apartheid.
19 Sep 2012, 17:16 pm
@David-596: Yes that’s a very true point. I was directing my comment at the way young white kids grew up, you’ll notice at 2nd glance that I specifically was not referring to the adults
19 Sep 2012, 17:18 pm
@katman-591: little fuckwit pseudo English half boers arsehole runtcunts the type feeble fuckwits such as you ARE do not deserve and do not get afforded ANY kind of reasonable answer from the likes of me.. piece of halfboer pseudo trash … you want an answer feeble little fuckwit half boer pseud .. come get it straight between your pseudo little halfboer eyes fuckwit..
For any others who MAY be slightly inquisitive as to what my struggle credentials are or were.. I don’t have any.. I served in the SA defense force as a 17 year old.. or you STILL as dumb fck deluded as you always WERE..? Beside the fact that my own mother fought battle lines along same paths and conscientious principles as her peers like Helen Suzman and one or 2 others..
19 Sep 2012, 17:25 pm
@fitz1ella-600: You just another whitey who milked the privilege of his ashen skin for half a dozen decades. A coward, as Rossi calls us. You in no position to make statements about anyone. You kept the Nats in power. You should be the first against the wall. Don’t talk to me about who belongs where. My first vote was in the referendum and my second vote was in ’94. And in both cases I voted the Nats out of power. You, on the other hand, were happy with the status quo under Verword, Vorster, Botha… So fck off with your dishonest, phoney little rants.
19 Sep 2012, 17:29 pm
593: So skeppie when I ask u what Cheeky did. You make up some allegation of fraud. When I ask for the whole story, you say its about the country in General? So u just through lies about Cheeky around? Come. What is the reason that white people hate Cheeky. No deflection and wishy washy storiesx this time.
19 Sep 2012, 17:33 pm
@katman-601: Nope I never kept the Nats in power.. where you and yours did.. Nats were never voted for by anyone remotely near to me .. in fact quite the contrary they fought tooth and nail within the limited confines of what the so called ‘law’ allowed them to do back then.. unlike pseudo pisswilly boers such as you who want to come sound off as suddenly being ‘enlightened’ whereas deep in your consciousness you cannot for a minute reason that any black man is anywhere remotely as intellectually or genetically as ‘equal’ as you … feeble little piece of pseudo arsewipe neo nazi trash.
You and Verwoerd are SAME breed of person.. only difference is the times have slightly changed and you cannot stand on the same self justifying principles as you ACTUALLY embrace within your inherently racist heart.
19 Sep 2012, 17:35 pm
@Atreides-587: Maybe I was one of the few white kids to be educated in a Catholic primary school: a convent, a private school, and a multi multi multi-racial school all in the Apartheid heydays of the 80′s…..My little school received quite a bit of ‘stick’ back in the day. Birthday celebrations and the like were always held on the school premises, because ‘A’ wasn’t allowed in my area…..and I wasn’t allowed in hers….. and ‘B’ wasn’t welcome in my area or ‘A’s area – soooo… the school hall witnessed more celebrations, funerals, weddings and other gatherings, than any town hall in SA.
All of our parents (all races) tried to give us kids as normal a childhood as possible in an abnormal country.
19 Sep 2012, 17:43 pm
Sounds like deliberately vague bullshit to me. If you’re white you benifited, whether you voted for the Nats or the PFP. And in your case this went on for a comfortably long time.
19 Sep 2012, 17:52 pm
Really so what I should have voted ANC or PAC or SACP ? That in your convoluted little pseudo arsewipe mind would have endeared me to being a true anti establishment revolutionary?
Or I should have pretended along the same lines that pseudo little runtcunt boertjie racist creeps the likes of you who voted against his parents party in the famous f’ng arsecreep referendum – which ‘allowed’ the black man just a ‘little’ scope to get SHOT of the dehumanizing shackles that your OWN kith and kin BOUND them to for how many centuries..? you pseudo little two face piece of arsewipe trash.. you don’t fool me one little bit.. your INHERENT racist ideology comes screaming through .. no matter how you try PRETEND you an ‘enlightened’ little pseudo half anglicized half boer.
19 Sep 2012, 18:05 pm
So you did nothing. You kept the snout in the trough of white privilege for half a century before it was yanked away, and now you think you can lay claim to some kind of struggle status because you voted for Slabbert? Phony prick.
19 Sep 2012, 18:06 pm
I got FAR more respect for REAL true honest Afrikaners… not these pisswilly little pseudo arsecreep anglicized half boer frauds who wanna come pretend they so goddamn intellectually principled and enlightened…
I got FAR more respect for REAL salt of the earth honest to goodness TRUE Afrikaners who have REAL principles they honestly hold true to ..
Pisswilly little fanny faced frauds such as these pseudo self deluded so called ‘enlightened’ half of nothing arsecreep pseuds get absolutely Zero respect in my books.
19 Sep 2012, 18:15 pm
There was NO white privilege where I came from runtcunt.. my parents did NOT segregate themselves from others in society the way yours did … they fought the inherent establishment in the same way as other politically active people who took the racists on legitimately at the polling booths and not through revolutionary struggle activism.. There was NO snout in any trough.. as there is STILL no snout in any so called trough.. not now and not then..
AGAIN.. unlike you whose pseudo neo nazi snout has been embedded in racist ideological troughs ever since you were born and till the day you die. Feeble little two faced pseud you don’t fool me with your pseudo intellectualized racial dishonesty. I smell an inherent two face fraud when I see one.. and you are IT…
19 Sep 2012, 18:35 pm
@fitz1ella-600: Skop why all the silly name calling?
19 Sep 2012, 18:37 pm
@rossoneri-602: I never accused him of fraud, I was using an example of “even if he commited fraud”. Yes I have heard allegations of financial mismanagement on his part but am not qualified to say whether these are tue or not. I do not like Cheeky Watson because he tried to buy his son a bok jersey. Is that a good enough reason?
19 Sep 2012, 18:40 pm
I call a spade by its name.. a spade.. what else must I call a spade or a runtcunt .. by, what other name shall I call a pseudo half arsed half boer runtcunt.?. if that is what they are.. that is what I call them.
Out now ..
the pseuds better catch a wake up and realize who they are.
ciao for now
19 Sep 2012, 18:42 pm
@rossoneri-602: If you are trying to get me to admit that I hate the Watsons because they backed anti apartheid then let me short cut you…I do not hate them at all, I dislike Cheeky due to 611 above. And yes, as a white male I will always feel guilt over apartheid and will always battle my own inherent racism. All I can do as a person is get rid of any residual **** I picked up during apartheid and ensure I treat all men and women equally. I do not profess to be perfect but I am always trying to be better…have you managed to let go of your bitterness?
19 Sep 2012, 18:42 pm
@fitz1ella-612: Goodnight skop, have a beer and chill
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