Lions give Kings the finger
21 Sep 2012
The Lions have turned down the Kings’ request to loan some of their players for Super Rugby next year.
The Kings confirmed in a statement on Friday that they had tried without success to sign several Lions players for their debut Super Rugby run next season. It’s likely that the Kings will face the Lions in a promotion-relegation play-off after the tournament (the last-placed South African franchise will have to compete for survival).
This is one of the reasons why the Eastern Cape franchise has asked Saru to lift its foreign player regulations, which only allow teams to field two non-South African players. It’s rumoured that the Kings are looking to recruit several Argentine and New Zealand players.
The Kings have also used other recruitment issues to motivate this request, which have occurred because of Saru’s delayed announcement of their Super Rugby status in August. At the time of the confirmation, the European window period for signing players had closed (interested South African players are only available in May 2013) and local players whose contracts expired this year had already agreed new deals.
The ARU made an exception to the foreign player regulations when the Melbourne Rebels made their Super Rugby debut in 2011.
Meanwhile, the Kings also revealed their plans for transformation.
They were unsuccessful in their attempts to retain most of their local talent without the attraction of Super Rugby. However, there are a number of players from their local academy who will be part of the Super Rugby squad in 2013. Fullback Soyiswapi Siviwe, wing Yamkela Ngam, lock Kuhle Sonkosi, prop Lizo Gqoboka, flank Thembelani Bholi and centre Shane Gates have all been identified as young players who are ready to make the step up.
In terms of developing future black players, the statement read: ‘We have been very vocal about our desires to develop and promote local talent, and in particular to accelerate the transformation of South African rugby and to develop quality black Springboks. As a result we have put a strong focus on developing and maintaining an academy, which is made up of predominantly home grown talent, with a strong commitment to a bottom-up transformation strategy.’
129 Comments
21 Sep 2012, 13:13 pm
Funny Roaring dragons!
21 Sep 2012, 13:16 pm
Of course this was going to happen. Any requests by the WP or Free State would have been rejected as well.
Bulls and Sharks will get lucky (more Sharks than Bulls though…)
21 Sep 2012, 13:21 pm
As it should be!!! Why should the Lions have to lend their players to the Kings!!??
It’s all rubbish! The Kings are a joke – where are all the players from this MYHTICAL pool of local talent Cheeky Watson et al have been boring us with, ad nauseum, for years…??? LOL!
Why signing on so many white players, Cheeky??? Weren’t you banging on about this “pool of talent” that is just “waiting for an opportunity”…??? Lol!
Maybe 1 year in Super Rugby will be a good thing in the long run – FINALLY banish the myth once and for all…?
And – my goodness – why a ‘special dispensation’ for the Kings for more overseas players..?? Please see my above comments/questions…???
Here’s to the Lions thrashing the Kings in next year’s promotion/relegation game… And – in the mean time – every other Super Rugby team – thrashing them too!!
They don’t deserve to be there on rugby merit alone – so stuff them!!!
21 Sep 2012, 13:24 pm
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-2: Well rumor has it that Jantjies and Franco will join the Sharks next year and Taute will wear blue.
21 Sep 2012, 13:32 pm
@Hop Hop Spinnekop-4: It will all go as predicted. Sharks will get most of the players though….
Dunno about fellows like Mapoe, Coetzee, Cilliers etc? Surely those okes want to play in the S15 and not some other competition?
21 Sep 2012, 13:33 pm
Hahahahaha. Kdk is suurgat. Some of those Lions players could have still at least been in Super rugby, but I guess they would rather go kiss Shark ***. It’s ok however.
21 Sep 2012, 13:33 pm
@Hop Hop Spinnekop-4: taute to wear Blue? Is that Stormers blue?
21 Sep 2012, 13:37 pm
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-5: Some people hold on to their prejudice I guess. I would have wanted to play Super rugby.
21 Sep 2012, 13:37 pm
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-5: What competition? That SARU promise? If KDK and Lions believe that bs they are really thick, the Lions will have to settle for the VC next year. My guess is when unions look at their stock pile they will fill their short comings with some Lions players. Unions will also look at the Lions when the injuries occur during the season.
21 Sep 2012, 13:39 pm
@grant10-7: Nope…
21 Sep 2012, 13:44 pm
@grant10-7 and @Hop Hop Spinnekop-10: I couldve guessed Taute might favour the Bulls (and might get more game time there), but he wouldve been great at WP.
I just want WP to get Elton! Please dont let him go the smelly Sharks!
Can you imagine Elton with the WP pack going forward and having guys like Aplon, Brache, De Jongh, Petersen etc to put into space?
Will be beauuuuutiful
21 Sep 2012, 13:44 pm
Perhaps the Lions should just stay away from Super Rugby all together… If their new tournament is a success (same pay or more, less rugby, less travel, European tours) why would the players want to go back…?
21 Sep 2012, 13:45 pm
@grant10-7: The only franchises who are going to score big name Lions are the Sharks and Bulls, because they voted for them (knowing they would lose the vote in ANY event, but with the eye on deals being made with the Lions for players. Lions really think Sharks and Bulls voted for them because they care???) Dumbfucks.
@Hop Hop Spinnekop-9: De Klerk is bluffing himself and his players…..Mapoe, Coetzee, Cilliers, Maku, Janse van Rensburg etc should all be playing Superugby.
21 Sep 2012, 13:52 pm
What sort of headline is this anyway.
21 Sep 2012, 13:57 pm
Robbie Deans © Gallo Images
Play Bok rugby games
‘Heyneke needs to be braver’ – Gavin Rich
Bok criticism is unfair – Deans
——————————————————————————–
by Brenden Nel 21 September 2012, 13:09
Australian coach Robbie Deans has scoffed at the perceived crisis in Springbok rugby, and laughed off suggestions that the Boks were simply a “kick and chase” team.
Deans, whose side arrived in Johannesburg more than a week early for their clash against the Boks on 29 September, knows too well how difficult it is to win on the Highveld and believes the Boks are a far better team than their own fans and critics are giving them credit for.
“They’ve been creative and they’ve been innovative. They scored a great try last week against the All Blacks. When you look at the small details like we do, you can see some of those points of difference and some of the aspirations in their game. The criticism is really wide of the mark,” Deans said.
His words were echoed by captain Nathan Sharpe who said the Wallabies were gearing themselves up for one of the biggest challenges in rugby.
“They’re (boks) always dangerous, especially at home. They’re one of the challenges in world rugby that you want to target, because you don’t get the opportunity all that often,” Sharpe said.
“We’re talking about test match rugby here, and there is no such thing as an easy test. I think people lose sight of that. The fact we’ve run two very good teams down in the past few weeks is good for us. We’ll take that form and we realise there are areas we need to fix. The grounds here are a bit faster and we’ll focus on that this week.”
Given their win in Bloemfontein last year, the Australians know how hard the challenge is to win on the Highveld, and with Loftus rated as one of the most intimidating crowds in rugby, the Wallabies know they have their work cut out for them.
“You only have to look at that history to fully appreciate the meaning of playing here. It took us 47 years to get the result on the Highveld, and 47 years is a long time. That’s an indicator of just how tough it is. We’re playing in Pretoria so it is a tough proposition, but its fantastic. Loftus is one of the great grounds of world rugby. This group are really looking forward to it,” Deans echoed.
Given the barrage of criticism against the Boks at the moment, Deans has some sympathy for Heyneke Meyer, especially as he also faces much criticism for his team’s form of late.
But the former Crusaders coach believes emotion is more the fuel than actual facts, and both for him and Meyer, the facts are more important than the emotional bluster that surrounds both teams at the moment. Deans said the Boks changing their flyhalf may be one thing, but will not automatically make them unbeatable.
“It’s not that simple (as much of the criticism suggests) and these things come about because of a need for winning. But the truth is sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, and the difference in those performances may not be that great. Some of the comments reflect more of the emotional state than the in-game content at the moment,” Deans explained, adding that his own criticism made him more resolute that his team would do well.
“You just concentrate of what you have to do. That is part of the territory for players and coaches, but when you’re part of a team, what you want from your teammates is to be there when it matters. Be good to go and come straight out with what’s important. We’re no different there.”
The Wallabies face the Boks at Loftus before heading to Argentina for their clash with Los Pumas.
21 Sep 2012, 13:57 pm
I wonder if SANZAR and NewsCorp are going to point out SARUs contractual obligations to them.
Theoretically, SARU has to ensure that the country’s top 150 players participate in the Super Series. This means that there is no allowance for an existing Franchise and its players to be “relegated”, without those players being accommodated in another franchise.
As I see it, it’s SARUs contractual responsibility to ensure that the current Lions players continue to be included in other franchises.
21 Sep 2012, 13:58 pm
@rossoneri-14:
katman will be along shortly to explain
21 Sep 2012, 14:05 pm
Is Yamkela related to Mfuneko?
21 Sep 2012, 14:10 pm
@rossoneri-15: All spin.
Anycase, there was no test in Bloemfontein last year.
21 Sep 2012, 14:38 pm
Question: Why would the Lions help the Kings in any way whatsoever? They aren’t going to assist the Kings to stay up as they have a vested interest in them failing.
What was Cheeky smoking if he thought otherwise.
21 Sep 2012, 14:43 pm
@stormersboy-20: Agree.
21 Sep 2012, 14:49 pm
@willievz-19: the Bloem test was in 2010 won with a kurtley beale halfway kick after flippen van der merwe stupidly infringed at ruck time…
21 Sep 2012, 14:52 pm
@Transformation-22: A Bulls player??? Really??
Wouldn’t have thunk it.
21 Sep 2012, 15:00 pm
21 Sep 2012, 15:04 pm
The EP Kings project is potentially one of the best things to happen to South African rugby in ages. If we play our cards right, it could have the following benefits to rugby in our country:
- Development of local talent
- Sparking a love for rugby in black areas
- New black role models which will instill a sense of belief and optimism in poor communities
- A new dimension to South African rugby which has been guilty of lacking creativity in the past
- A new rugby fraternity for us to welcome into a tournament (the same way we welcomed Argentina into the Rugby Championship)
- Increased unity through rugby… Something South Africa could be leveraging more.
I feel there are too many people who have not given the Kings a chance. There also seems to be a (small) minority of bad eggs who have racist feelings about the Kings…. Whilst I appreciate that the administration of the Kings entry into Super rugby was handled badly and the Lions can feel hard done by, the truth of the matter is that this project will bring benefits to South African rugby and benefits to South Africa as a whole.
Living in South Africa can feel tense with all the different race groups so deeply segregated. Projects like this serve to bring us together through a common love for a sport which we are passionate about.
Go Kings!
21 Sep 2012, 15:25 pm
Was never goin to happen anyway.was worth a shot at least
Kings still have Maku,Butch and Waylon Murray to go after-trio is out of contract end of CC
Players like Grant Hattingh,JP du Plessis,Monde Hadebe,Sbura Sithole,Jacques Botes,Kabamba Floors,Marcel vd Merwe,Clayton Blommetjies,William Wall Smith,Dillon Ledyts,Nizaam Carr,Cornell Hess,Lubabalo Mthembu,Jean-Andre Marais,Wandile Mjekevu,Kyle Cooper,Rocco Jansen,Deon Stegman, etc will all be playin Vodacom Cup…when they shud be loaned to Kings to strengthen SA challenge
21 Sep 2012, 15:38 pm
Go Kings !! Personally I dint see the fuss about the Kings wanting to recruit players , so what if they are looking at so called White players , they never said they will pick 15 black players !!
People are just thick if they expect the Region to do well with local only Talent in year one. How can the Kings only get one year to get it right while the likes of the Bulls and Lions had so many years ?
Why the hatred for the Kings ? Is rugby not for ALL South Africans ? For me it seems as if the people are only Anti Watson becos he had the guts to turn his back on apartheid South Africa. I for one will be cheering for the Kings and hoping they do well and if they dont and the Lions play on 2014 then I shall be cheering for the Lions then. Well at least when they not playing the Stormers !!
The rest of you need to stop hating an grow up
21 Sep 2012, 15:41 pm
@Kaizan-25:
I agree, been punting the same argument for years, now.
@mshiniwami-26:
SARU have the right to move those players if they wanted to.
21 Sep 2012, 15:41 pm
@Kaizan-25: Well said Kaizan , Also we forget the whole debackle of the Lions was NOT the fault of the Kings , The Eastern Cape has been promised Super rugby now for how many years ?
One thing that I would love to know is howcome EP never continued to play Super rugby after 2006 ? I think thats the year they played and they were coached by Alex Grizzly or something like that
21 Sep 2012, 15:43 pm
@sparticus-27:
Well said.
21 Sep 2012, 15:45 pm
@David-28: i don’t know hey david, with rassie today saying: “News
Rassie: Boks tweaking game plan
Fri, 21 Sep 2012 11:27
PrevNextIt’s definitely a strategy that worked in the past
Rassie Erasmus says Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer is tweaking his game plan ahead of next weekend’s Rugby Championship clash with the Wallabies in Pretoria.
SARU’s High Performance Manager admitted that the Springboks’ much-maligned kick-and-chase approach has been gradually losing its efficiency in recent seasons.
He was quick to add, however, that the Boks should not veer from their conservative game plan but rather make minor changes to add more strings to their bow.
“It’s definitely a strategy that worked in the past but I agree that we have to make some adjustments. In the past it was New Zealand’s weakness with players like [Sitiveni] Sivivatu and [Joe] Rokocoko,” said Erasmus during a questions-and-answers session on the team’s official website.
“You always knew they couldn’t really handle the kicking game. Over the last couple of years, however, they’ve played fullbacks at wing like [Cory] Jane and [Israel] Dagg. I can assure you Heyneke is well aware of this and is busy hatching some plans.”
Erasmus said South Africa are on the right path but would have to take a hard look at their player management, which he considers a major cause for concern at this stage.
“I think we will have to put a structure in place to prevent that players are burned out by Super Rugby Final time. That’s where New Zealand currently have the edge over us, with the management of their players rather than their coaching.
“I think our biggest challenge is the fact that we don’t have central contracts like New Zealand. Our franchises own the primary contract with the players and therefore control the amount of game time.
“Obviously we sometimes request that a player must be better managed, but one do have to understand that the franchise coaches are also under immense pressure to perform. Not an ideal situation but one of my first challenges I want to get right.”
21 Sep 2012, 15:46 pm
@Hop Hop Spinnekop-10: then what team then?
21 Sep 2012, 15:47 pm
@David-28: which player in your memory has ever been moved as SARU’s instruction solely on the basis that he must get game time instead of playing a 3rd tier competition?
21 Sep 2012, 15:48 pm
@David-28:
SARU cant move players contracted to a union any where they want.
21 Sep 2012, 15:51 pm
@Mr Black-34:
Thats why richer unions would always do better if they contract correctly.
Unlike Stormers
21 Sep 2012, 15:53 pm
Why punish the Lions players for the wrongs of the union. Who would support a union who has not even paid the other unions forming part of the Lions franchise…
21 Sep 2012, 15:55 pm
@Gumboots-36:
Do you think the Lions will come back a more proffesional outfit?
21 Sep 2012, 15:56 pm
@sparticus-27: you won’t believe how much irritation cheeky causes even in some pockets here in PE, i’ve previously asked friends, acquiantances who have confessed to not liking him to DETAIL why they seem to despise the man…
all you get are half-baked stories about “the guy is a bully” “he only did what he did back in the day to secure black business” “he is corrupt” to “the guy is just a doos”
nobod actually comes out to say for instance “i hate the guy because he stole money from so and so” nothing…
some will lead you to believe that it was the fact that he used his influence to force the SARU president to insert his son’s name in a bok team sheet, something that happened in 2006.
somewhere it needs to be asked, why do so many of our white countrymen despise cheeky watson?
21 Sep 2012, 16:00 pm
@Transformation-38:
Its like some people hating the sharks. Who knows why!!
21 Sep 2012, 16:02 pm
@Mr Black-37:
They have screwed everyone over and then blame every Tom, **** and Sally because they don’t support a Union who behave like criminals. With current cronies no…
21 Sep 2012, 16:04 pm
@Mr Black-39:
LOL – no team is more hated than the Stormers…
21 Sep 2012, 16:06 pm
@Mr Black-39: that’s the nature of competition sharks vs ………insert name of home union.
hate cheeky watson, because?
21 Sep 2012, 16:06 pm
@Gumboots-40:
Agree, they need the broom to clean house I think.
21 Sep 2012, 16:07 pm
@Transformation-42:
Honory Black vs white i guess
21 Sep 2012, 16:13 pm
@mshiniwami-26: hahahaha Butch! Better than the kak Zorba I guess.
xs xs xs
Kings have had 3 years to contract players and build their squad. Why eye VC players from other unions.
21 Sep 2012, 16:13 pm
@Mr Black-34:
Yes they can. It’s in the Franchise contracts. Remember that union and franchise contracts are separate legal entities. Besides, I was referring to Mshiniwamis list of players.
21 Sep 2012, 16:23 pm
@David-46: what do you think this means?
“I think our biggest challenge is the fact that we don’t have central contracts like New Zealand. Our franchises own the primary contract with the players and therefore control the amount of game time.”
21 Sep 2012, 16:36 pm
@RL-45:
How could they contract players if they could not get the assurance from SARFU that they will be playing Super Rugby?
No player wanted to sign up because of the uncertainty. That’s what they were trying to say in their statement.
21 Sep 2012, 16:38 pm
@Transformation-47:
SARU can’t dictate to the franchises regarding their contracted players, but they can transfer players, with their agreement, who aren’t being utilised by the franchise. Remember that not all provincial players are also franchise contracted, even though they can be called up to the franchise, which is where the confusion lies, I believe. As SARU pays the union R250,000 (I think that’s the figure) for every player in the S15, in theory the Lions could loan out all 30 of their contracted Franchise and any GLRU player and just pocket the money.
As I posted though, I was commenting on Mshiniwamis list who he said would be playing Vodacom cup instead of S15. SARU would be well within their rights to approach their union about allowing them to play S15 for the Kings.
21 Sep 2012, 16:42 pm
It would be foolish of the Lions to help the Kings.
Consider this scenario:
Lions help the Kings. Kings somehow pull the cat out of the bag by using Lion players and end up above the Cheetahs. The lions will then face the Cheetahs for a playoff – it makes much more sense for them to stack the odds in their favour and dislodge the Kings
21 Sep 2012, 16:42 pm
political puppets
21 Sep 2012, 16:55 pm
Elton Jantjes, Franco Vd. Merwe & Michael Rhodes – Sharks.
Jaco Taute, Alwyn Hollenbach – Bulls.
Pat Cilliers – Stormers.
The rest including Josh Strauss -> overseas.
21 Sep 2012, 17:10 pm
If the Lions loaned their players to the Kings, how would the promotion/relegation play-off match work?
21 Sep 2012, 18:14 pm
@grant10-32: How many SA teams wear blue? If it’s not Stormers, then it’s quite obvious.
21 Sep 2012, 18:39 pm
And they expected a favourable response to the request?
21 Sep 2012, 18:39 pm
These Keo fools 2 steps behind…
Of course De Klerk was going to give middle finger…
As I thought – the only 2 provinces who will get the best of Lions will be Sharks and Bulls.
Jantjies, Vd Merwe, Taute and a Prop will go to Sharks…
21 Sep 2012, 18:44 pm
I have read two articles on the Kings on here today, and I am yet to see the name of Hoskins mentioned in one of them – including comments.
21 Sep 2012, 18:53 pm
Funny how earlier this year how all the hipocrates on this site was commenting on how ***** the Lions players are, and now every player must join the Stormers, Sharks etc.
What has changed?
Next week the Lions will be anouncing the new competion, and maybe it will be the other way around, the players might want to join the Lions to get exposure at the Euro clubs, and maybe get some lucrative contracts.
21 Sep 2012, 18:55 pm
@Wanderer-58:
What competition will they join in Europe?
Most have started already.
21 Sep 2012, 19:25 pm
@59
Maybe exhibition matches against Tier2 countries
21 Sep 2012, 19:29 pm
@RL-45: Surely You kidding right ? What player in his right mind would sign for a region that had zero confirmation of playing Super rugby ?
The Kings stated that they targeted several overseas based South Africans but we all know due to SARU delaying this so long they ran out of time and these players signed extensions to their contracts.
No-one seems to be able to answer how they expect the Kings to go about things ? Are you of the opinion that they should field their current squad as is ? Then they will def come last , this is super rugby we talking about here , even the Rebels with all their stars have not been able to lift themselves off the bottom of their comp for the first few years.
So basically the Kings are dammed in they do and dammed if they dont , they play only local players like some suggest and lose by records scores yes and then these same people will say , I told you so. Or they contract some decent players and then these same people moan about the lack of local players !!
The kings to deliver on their transformation policy need to survive in super rugby first. They need to achieve something no SA team or NZ and Aussie team for that matter could achieve in the history of the Super rugby comp. Instead of moaning how they dont deserve to be there why dont you guys just instead support them like you did for the Lions before them or the Bulls before them who may I remind you all lost ALL their games one year. I dont even want to go into details how poor the Lions have been on Super rugby.
The funny thing now is hat everyone seems to agree that its a disgrace that a team dont deserve super rugby status if they are destined to become the whipping boys and yet they all seemed to think it was fine all these years for the Lions to play Super rugby !
21 Sep 2012, 19:30 pm
@Wanderer-58: Not every player , we only want Janjies…..
21 Sep 2012, 20:05 pm
Good on the Lions….. screw the Kings and their (unjustified) sense of entitlement!
21 Sep 2012, 20:06 pm
@61
Support Kings?On what grounds and what for, just cause you or Cheeky says so. If SARU were serious about rugby they would have helped the Lions.Now they have alienated the biggest city in SA from rugby, where the talent pool is 10 times bigger than in EP. Many people will cheer for a Kings loss
21 Sep 2012, 20:34 pm
@JL1-64:
If the Jhb talent pool is so big, how come the majority of Lions players are imports?
21 Sep 2012, 21:20 pm
@JL1-64:
Ok, so JHB is the biggest city and the richest
So how come they so k*k for just about a decade with empty stadiums to match?
Please spin us a response
21 Sep 2012, 21:27 pm
@sparticus-61: Cheeky Watson stated that they are ready and able to play Super Rugby. I don’t see that the Kings won’t be competitive in Super rugby but they will suffer the same fate as the Lions and Cheetahs , no depth, once they pick up 4 or more injuries they will be on a hiding to nothing. The Cheetahs have the least resources and will be in big trouble next year.
We wait and see what competition the Lions come up with; I have a sneaky suspicion that the Griquas will be included.
21 Sep 2012, 21:33 pm
@capetown-66: Where do you get this Idea that Ellispark is empty, the Lions avg match attendance for Super Rugby 2012 is 22300 they are 5th on the Super rugby attendance list. The sharks were 22800 per match the Bulls and Stormers were in their 30 thousands odd and the Reds were above the Cheetahs ,Lions and Sharks.
If you consider that the Lions were bottom of the log with that amount of people, how many more would attend if they were winning.
All the Kings have to do is to better those numbers.
21 Sep 2012, 21:33 pm
The overwhelming majority of those making negative, anti-E.Cape rugby noises can by no stretch of the imagination be genuine supporters of non-racial sport(which they so vociferously claim) in a totally a-racial society. These are the same people who, or their forebears, cheered B.low J.ob Vorster’s Loskop Dam speech that denied the talents of the likes of Albert Johansson, Dolly, Green Vigo, Bernard Hartze, Rashid Khan, and hundreds more to blossom.
The areas of the E.Cape harbours many seeds and bulbs of potentially beautiful flowers if it is only given some water to nurture that life. Money is that water but that area has been systematically denuded of it since the 1950s(Ford, G.M, Richards Bay, Saldanna Bay etc., etc.) and is still reaping the evil aridness of that deliberate drought.
SARU’s 1 year offer is much like rubbing the noses of all Eastern Capers into the ****** stench of long living ‘apartheid’. Any worthwhile effort needs to be given a full go and at least half a generation to effect meaningful change and not the time that the top-heavy.’verkrampte’ SARU decrees(they know it will fail with just 12 months).
The vehement attitudes witnessed gets its life from the never-ending shame that a family of rugby brothers bestowed upon them so gloriously and caught them all with their pants around their ankles and thus ‘kaalgat’ with dishonour(and the world cheered and agreed with those rugby brothers and millions more and said we will no longer play with you).
They seemingly shout S.Africa today because truly they have no other choice; they are without a country leg to stand on.
21 Sep 2012, 21:40 pm
You’re talking from your bumbum.
21 Sep 2012, 21:43 pm
E.T talking nonsensical racially slanted kakakakakakaka as usual.
21 Sep 2012, 21:58 pm
@Honesty Box Seymour-71:
He’ll refer to all the “struggle sportsman” who he believes were better than the successful ones
You’ll see he’ll try to convince you Cheeky and AC were better than legends like Divan
21 Sep 2012, 23:09 pm
It was when the Leicester coach saw his young centre sin-binned for fighting with an opposition prop that he realised he had the makings of a snarly front-row forward.
That player was Tom Youngs, the coach, South Africa’s Heyneke Meyer, and four years ago a burgeoning international career was born.
On Saturday Youngs, older brother of scrum-half Ben, goes head-to-head with another England hopeful, Harlequins’ Joe Gray.
The match is a rerun of last season’s Aviva Premiership final, a classic of its kind. But the game within the game, the tussle between the hookers, fighting for a vacant spot in England’s elite squad, will hold equal fascination. Both were in England’s midweek side on the summer tour to South Africa. Up for grabs to the winner will be a probable place on the England bench for the November Tests as back-up to Dylan Hartley.
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Youngs has come at it the hard way. Not many would have taken kindly to Meyer’s suggestion. Youngs did. It was not the only instance of unexpected requests in Youngs’ life. He asked his fiancée Tiffany, to come into the garden for something special – to catch balls so that he could practise his line-out throwing. Meyer and Youngs know how to woo someone.
“Yes, well, er, I have to practise and practise and practise, so Tiffany understands that I think,” said Youngs. “As for Heyneke [now Springbok coach], I saw him in June. He was delighted with what’s happened because I’d gone off the radar and he was worried that he’d messed me around.”
Far from it. Youngs is a farmer’s lad from Norfolk, son of former England scrum-half, Nick, and was back on the 1500-acre arable farm on his day off on Wednesday helping drill seeds for wheat crops. That he’s used to mucking in has helped him get through the ups-and-downs of a radically new position, especially coping with the pressure of the line-out.
Leicester director of rugby, Richard Cockerill, a hooker himself, believes that Youngs’ down-to-earth temperament, has been key in helping him make the switch.
“He doesn’t get fazed,” said Cockerill. “He’s not an academic is Tom, he has a bit of dyslexia, too, so he’s had to tough his way through things. He doesn’t worry about stuff. If he misses a throw it doesn’t mess with his head. He’s a very resilient personality. He’s had to be.”
Youngs, 25, was put out on loan to Nottingham for two years to learn his trade.
“He had the choice of being an OK centre in the Premiership or a tilt at being an international hooker,” said Cockerill. “It was a calculated risk and we’re now starting to see the benefits.”
Youngs had no hesitation in taking up the challenge. “I’ve never regretted it for a minute. I loved physical contact so that side of things wasn’t a problem. ”
He showed in England’s two midweek matches in South Africa just what he has to offer in open play: pace, abrasiveness and a sense of opportunity. Youngs still lacks experience.
Saturday’s match is only his seventh start in the Premiership in his entire career. England, though, have been underpowered in their ball-carrying and Youngs would certainly bring drive and bite to that side of things.
“Tom would run through a brick wall for you, not back down from anyone or anything, that’s his nature,” said Cockerill.
The line-out throwing is an ongoing issue, as once it was with Dylan Hartley and Steve Thompson before him. “It’s the golf swing, or the goal-kick, you’ve just got to keep drilling it so that you can cope with any situation, any amount of pressure,” said Youngs.
Over to you Tiffany.
Joe Gray
There was a time last season when the Harlequins’ scrummage was seen as flaky. They soon put that to rights. Loosehead Joe Marler grew in stature and won an England debut on the summer tour to South Africa, Samoan tighthead James Johnston stood out as one of the Premiership’s players of the season and now it’s time to salute hooker, Joe Gray, pushing hard himself for full England recognition.
Gray, 24, has earned his spurs, understudying Dylan Hartley at Northampton before moving to London two years ago. At Quins, he has been contesting the No 2 shirt with Matt Cairns and Chris Brooker. Injury may have opened up opportunities but he has not wasted the chance. “Joe is the glue in our pack,” said Harlequins’ forwards coach, John Kingston. “Technically, he’s spot-on. He’s the best thrower in the Premiership, hitting line-out after line-out. But all round the park he does things correctly. He presents properly in contact, has the right body angle when clearing rucks and his tackle completion is high. He’s the all-round package. He certainly wouldn’t let England down.”
Stuart Lancaster knows Gray well, having seen him progress through the England Under-20 Grand Slam winning team and into the Saxons last year under his guidance. Gray moved to Harlequins a couple of season ago, frustrated at not seeing enough action at Northampton.
“I knew it would not be an easy transition from Academy ranks into senior rugby and it was right that I had to earn my stripes properly,” said Gray, originally from Nottingham. “When the chance came to join Harlequins, it seemed the perfect fit. They play with tempo and that’s how I like it. I’ve had more game time and that’s helped me develop.”
Gray and Youngs are no strangers to each other having formed the midweek hooker combination during the June tour to South Africa, each starting one of the games.
“We spent time together with [England coach] Simon Hardy on our line-out drills,” said Gray. “Going to head-to-head on Saturday will just be like any other contest, hard and challenging. But that’s normal, the way it is every week. Tom’s a really nice guy but you’re out there for your team.”
As with Youngs, so with Gray, both are known as dedicated professionals. “I can’t speak highly enough of Joe,” said Kingston. “He wants to get everything exactly right. His mindset in each session is to improve.”
Gray tells of line-out sessions with Hardy where the last drill of the day is to hit the giant ‘lollipop’ board bang in the middle 15 times in a row. Any flunked throws and it is back to the beginning to start all over again.
“Yeah, there have been some long days but from dragging my dad down to the park so that I could throw at lampposts all those years ago to going through the routines now, you know that the hard work will pay off. Of course I’d love to play for England but you’ve got to do your stuff for your club first. That’s what it’s all about – delivering each and every week.”
22 Sep 2012, 00:53 am
Does anybody think this was ever a serious request. Talk about being magmanimous…
22 Sep 2012, 01:02 am
@PielNeus-73: i didn’t know that
.a real contribution from pnose.
22 Sep 2012, 07:40 am
Kings?
Fuckem.
22 Sep 2012, 10:24 am
@JL1-64: First off on the grounds that they are a SA team. The irony , for years we see how everyone is up in arms about the NZ support in CT , I wonder who these same people will support when the crusaders play the Kings ? Already we see how some are hoping for record scores against the Kings !! What jokes these so called fans are.
Secondly , Super rugby has always been a more Regional Comp than a privatised City comp and the Gauteng Region already has the Bulls so it wont be left out ! Its like WP and Boland each fielding teams in Super rugby.
As for the pool talent ? There might be more people in JHB but their aint more rugby talent.
22 Sep 2012, 10:29 am
@sparticus-77:
Strange agendas!!! I hope the Kings actually do well.
I feel for the Lions, but they are not blameless either…
22 Sep 2012, 10:42 am
@sparticus-77: talk kuk – lions and bulls franchises cover 4 of the 9 provinces in SA and represent 5 of the 14 rugby unions affiliated to SARU – why should all this talent only be represented by a single franchise?
22 Sep 2012, 12:49 pm
@RL-79:
The opposite question is, why should the Sharks have a franchise all to itself?
22 Sep 2012, 12:51 pm
@David-80: Because the Sharks very shrewdly paid off Border and EP, that’s why.
They paid for it, Border and EP were happy to take the cash, no story there.
22 Sep 2012, 13:06 pm
@David-80: Exactly. That’s the question everyone should be asking. Court cases about the Lions not paying their franchise partners, but who are the Sharks paying? They get to keep it all, play all their matches in Durban and attract the players there, which means a strong CC side too. Originally, Border and EP were the other two unions in the Franchise (with SWD part of the Stormers). Sharks bought their partners out, but it only took half a decade for them to start moaning about it. And then the Lions must pay to accommodate them again? That’s like a woman getting a divorce settlement from her ex husband, blowing all the cash over the next 6 years, running to the courts again, and the court deciding that some complete stranger on the other side of the country must move out of his house so that she has a place to stay.
22 Sep 2012, 13:37 pm
@katman-82: and that affects the Sharks how? They did the smart deal, signed on the dotted line, paid over a lump of cash, washed their hands of the problem.
The Lions problem was finishing last in the S15 this year (and pretty much in most recent years). They were the easy target as a result. I suspect this is a lot closer to the real issue.
22 Sep 2012, 13:42 pm
@Honesty Box Seymour-83: I suspect you’re missing the point here. Which is, of course, that the reason the Eastern Cape has been out in the rugby wilderness for the better part of a decade is not because of the Lions (regardless where they finished) but because the Sarks paid them off. As is the custom here in sunny SA.
22 Sep 2012, 13:59 pm
@katman-84: nope, the reason the Eastern Cape was unrepresented in Super rugby is because the Eastern Cape regions contractually accepted the cash in lieu of Super rugby representation.
Personally, I don’t see any proper reason for the Kings’ inclusion in the 1st place and I am disappointed by the Lions’ omission. Notwithstanding that the Kings have no valid rugby reasons to Super rugby inclusion, they took their cash and they should live with.
How many super games have the Bulls played at the Falcons’ home ground? How many Super games do the Stormers play at Boland, the Lions at the Leopards or Pumas?
Lol, the Eastern Cape/Sharks argument is a smokescreen. If these regions were still merged would it have made any difference? Nope, the team would still be the Sharks and they would play every game in Durban, just like all the other “franchises” do. I suspect the weakest SA team (Lions) would still have made way for the wailing “transformation” calls so unique to South Africa where politics trumps sporting excellence.
22 Sep 2012, 14:02 pm
@Honesty Box Seymour-83:
@katman-84:
As I remember, the Sharks only paid them to hold all the games in Durban. It was only when the 5th franchise came up that EP, Border and SWD applied for their own franchise. SARU should never have allowed the Sharks bid on their own. The whole regional franchise issue is a stuff up because SARU didn’t exercise their right to determine the regional franchise groupings, as Luyt did originally.
22 Sep 2012, 14:18 pm
@David-86: good insight David but due to durbans geographical isolation from the ec, it makes it hard to see how natal and ep could form a franchise together?
training together would be impossible unless air travel was used which would surely bankrupt both unions?
no, the partnership of ep and natal was never going to work.
a better partnership would have been the bulls and lions as at least they are next door to each other.
22 Sep 2012, 14:20 pm
in fact natal is isolated from every other union really.
bloem is closer to jhb than it is to durbs i think?
its the long and narrow shape of kzn that does it i suppose.
this surely makes partnering with other unions impractical?
22 Sep 2012, 14:25 pm
@rangerman-88: indeed. Even the road from Natal down to the EC is a journey in itself.
Whilst getting from Jhb to Bloem is a piece of pie.
The Stormers are lucky Boland is so close. But that is hardly a “franchise” anyway, it is all WP.
The most obvious merger is Bulls and Lions.
22 Sep 2012, 14:27 pm
How many Stormers players play for Boland in the Currie Cup?
22 Sep 2012, 14:30 pm
@Honesty Box Seymour-89: ja its complicated by the fact that there are 5 unions in the greater PWV area so it would be a super-union but one that i dont think bulls fans would justifiably ever accede to forming.
natal basically has no choice but to go it alone, thats a fact.
22 Sep 2012, 14:35 pm
And the ‘ LosKop Dammers’ as confused and anti-African as they all are, merrily fall out of line to exchange handbags with each other.
22 Sep 2012, 14:36 pm
@Mostofyou-92:
E.T why are you posting as “Mostofyou” and “Neilanate” and possibly a few other nicks these days?
22 Sep 2012, 14:39 pm
hashim you beauty GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
22 Sep 2012, 14:40 pm
@Mostofyou-92: what are you on about corpus?
22 Sep 2012, 14:40 pm
another 4 hash you exceptional natalian you!
22 Sep 2012, 14:42 pm
cmon hash, if you bat us to a huge score here i will visit johnny’s for a roti next week.
if its an exceptional score i will forego the chip and cheese and even go with something with meat in it
22 Sep 2012, 14:44 pm
sri lankans must be filled with joy and relief at the ending of their civil war and the joyous occasion of a world cup to unite their country.
i wish them all the best.
22 Sep 2012, 14:46 pm
@rangerman-97:
“…and even go with something with meat in it”
Eish, from Johnny’s, are you sure you want to do that?
22 Sep 2012, 14:46 pm
wicket
22 Sep 2012, 14:58 pm
go ab you beauty!
whoohoooo, like watching a cartoon skop skiet and donner.
22 Sep 2012, 14:59 pm
@Honesty Box Seymour-99:
ok maybe i am getting carried away hahahahahaha
22 Sep 2012, 15:00 pm
ab out.
oh the treachery
22 Sep 2012, 15:03 pm
@Honesty Box Seymour-89:
Haven’t you guys heard there’s a new form of transport called an aeroplane?
22 Sep 2012, 15:04 pm
do the sri lanksand have the coolest names in world cricket?
wicket. bleak faf fails again but he had a crack.
22 Sep 2012, 15:05 pm
Faf du Plessis is actually pretty mediocre.
22 Sep 2012, 15:05 pm
@David-104: mentioned that david.
how expensive do you think that would be?
not really an option bud.
22 Sep 2012, 15:07 pm
nice finish JP!
pretty good target set, lets see how the lankis go here.
22 Sep 2012, 15:16 pm
wp in for a long day here
22 Sep 2012, 15:17 pm
Ou Honey Humping (in the) Box is still but a Wooden spoon.
22 Sep 2012, 15:28 pm
@rangerman-107: Depends how many players need to travel. They could get sponsorship from one of the local airlines.
22 Sep 2012, 15:32 pm
@David-111: are you really wanting to explore this avenue of making a natal ep alliance viable?
seriously david?
go research the types of air traffic between durbs and pe and then ask yourself how much it would cost bud.
natal has to go it alone due to geography. thats a fact.
22 Sep 2012, 15:34 pm
If it is as easy as just hopping on a flight than it would be just as easy for WP and EP to join up as a franchise….
22 Sep 2012, 15:36 pm
@Honesty Box Seymour-113:
or bulls and wp?
22 Sep 2012, 15:37 pm
@rangerman-114: match made in heaven.
22 Sep 2012, 15:37 pm
Why would you have to fly to training etc?
Just put the players up in nice accommodation for the duration of the tourney.
Im sure they could fit the EC boys in somewhere at Zimbali?
Crazy stuff .
22 Sep 2012, 15:40 pm
@gunther-116: haha, ja gunts i am sure the players will love being away from home for 6 mnths.
22 Sep 2012, 15:42 pm
@rangerman-117:
It’s pro sport baby.
22 Sep 2012, 15:46 pm
@gunther-118: yes it is.
and we are happily pro in durbs.
22 Sep 2012, 15:46 pm
ok i am out.
tjorts.
22 Sep 2012, 15:48 pm
I like this idea of the Stormers and the Bulls merging.
The flight path between Gauteng and CT is a very well used one. There are many cheap flights on offer.
Plus we are told the players can stay over for 6 months, pro sport and all that.
I think the Bulls players will fit in perfectly in Cape Town.
Can’t see how anyone can object as this idea is perfect.
22 Sep 2012, 16:20 pm
@Honesty Box Seymour-121:
Whatever you say spooner.
22 Sep 2012, 16:40 pm
Seems I am missing a local joke.
22 Sep 2012, 18:20 pm
@Honesty Box Seymour-81: Jaa and unlike the Lions the Sharks actually shared that cash with their partners
23 Sep 2012, 01:35 am
What everyone seems to forget when arguing that the Eastern Cape was ‘promised’ Super Rugby is that they had it. They formed part of the Sharks franchise and chose to take the mopney and run. Their choice.
Add to this the entitlement argument and it’s easy to understand why so many – me included – have fokkol time for the Kings and hope they sink without a trace.
Now Griquas, there’s a more worthy union.
23 Sep 2012, 05:57 am
@Joe Maher-125: “What everyone seems to forget when arguing that the Eastern Cape was ‘promised’ Super Rugby is that they had it. They formed part of the Sharks franchise”
we “had it” alright, in much the same way Boland is ‘part’ of the Stormers franchise, yet f.okkol development happens in Wellington! Even when Boland have a gem of a player like Willie le Roux WP ignore him & contract Burton Francis.
The association with the Sharks was a fruitless one and all they did was entice our players to defect to Durban.
SARU approved the formation of the South Eastern Cape franchise in 2005 so yours is a moot point.
23 Sep 2012, 08:58 am
@Transformation-126: If you were a better rugby region, then you would have been the WP and the Sharks would have been the Boland in your franchise. This argument of yours is like the Pumas bitching about not being the premier partner in their franchise, and playing the political/race blackmail card until they are.
If there’s one thing that South Africans are sick and tired of, it’s We Must Have It. Anyone who uses this to get what they want can kiss any sympathy goodbye. And I certainly wish nothing but miserable failure upon the Kings. Which is a real pity for the decent rugby loving supporters and players in the region – they were fcked over by rampant Watsonism.
23 Sep 2012, 09:15 am
@katman-127:
Louis Luyt created the regions. What’s interesting is that during the Cats period, Free State had a better CC record than the Lions, even though the Lions were supposedly the senior partner. Which was one of the reasons the Cheetahs pulled out.
24 Sep 2012, 00:59 am
Really it should read : “Lions give Kings the Paw”
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