Integrate; don’t exterminate
1 Oct 2012
MARK KEOHANE, in Business Day newspaper, writes that 15 players get to start but 30 will be needed to make the Boks the best in the business by 2015.
Remember when Bryan Habana got jeered in Bloemfontein? That very same day when Springbok rugby supporters unanimously declared it was time to move on from the player and those social media gurus who so generously and confidently offer all the solutions to South African rugby agreed that the majority of Currie Cup wingers were an improvement on Habana.
The abuse was disgraceful. The immaturity was equally alarming.
Never forget how easily so many were willing to discard the world-class qualities of the player voted the world’s best in 2007.
Remember that day because it is the evil that continues to torment any Bok coach and any search for a winning habit and not a one-off winning high.
Now remember Saturday’s demolition of the Wallabies in Pretoria because it provided confirmation that the Boks can play rugby as good as any out there and that they have a coach who doesn’t embrace provincial bias, racism or rugby from an era believed to be outdated.
The Boks played fantastic rugby against Australia, sustained the intensity throughout and delighted South Africans with the quality of the performance.
Habana was sensational in all aspects of his game.
Bloemfontein wasn’t so long ago ladies and gentlemen.
It really is time South Africa’s rugby public matured in how it viewed the Springboks, in defeat and in victory and that debate does not mean despair and that criticism of a performance does not come with a condition of immediate change and that no Test match is a matter of life and death and that one victory does not provide an all consuming answer and that one defeat does not define the future of the game.
Perspective should be the ally of passion.
Being irrational, being emotional and being stupid does not constitute passion.
There will always rightly be an expectation that the Boks can beat any team at home. It does not mean they will. Similarly there is always an excuse when the Boks lose away from home when the expectation should be that in terms of quality of player the potential for winning away from home is not a romantic notion but something very tangible.
The game has evolved and the consistency to be good enough to win regularly cannot be the responsibility of 15 players believed to be the best national starting XV.
There has to be an acceptance very good South African players have chosen a career path overseas. It isn’t a crime and these players shouldn’t be treated with disdain.
In fact it allows for new players to regularly emerge in our domestic competitions. It improves the potential of what can be produced as a national squad of 30. The new don’t queue unnecessarily and the tried and tested tend to evolve as people because of the overseas experience, improve as players and many don’t play for their country when actually at the peak of their game.
I am going to resist mentioning names because that immediately dominates what is essentially a principle that age and geographics should never be a consideration. All that should be asked is if the player is good enough; not to start against the All Blacks on Saturday, by way of the most pressing Bok challenge, but to start at any time between now and 2015’s World Cup.
There is no logic to making singular investments. The nature of the sport means that the hero of Saturday could twist his knee this week and never play again. Then what?
Youth always brings enthusiasm to any squad. Equally experience brings calm and confidence. Champion teams never have one or the other component. The teams who win consistently over a period of time never chose one as being more important than the other.
There is evolution and not revolution in selections. There is a phasing in and a phasing out and there is mentorship and realism that one victory does not make a summer and one performance does not make a legend.
Do your own exercise. Look at the qualities of every player available to South Africa, in this country and abroad. Look at how good the player is and not how old the player is. Find two players in each position you believe are good enough to start a World Cup final in 2015.
What should be celebrated this morning is that our national player base is capable of producing 30 players of similar pedigree and they aren’t all playing in South Africa.
That should not be confused with enjoying what was a wonderful Bok performance against Australia.
The game has evolved. So too should the attitude of the supporter, the media and the administrator. One off wins must be enjoyed but it should never be seen as a guarantee that one era starts and another ends or that one player stays and another is never allowed back.
The search has to be for 30 players capable of starting a World Cup final in 2015 and not the preferred identity of 15 we hope make it to that final in 2015.
136 Comments
1 Oct 2012, 12:17 pm
30Dragons
1 Oct 2012, 12:20 pm
On a more sober note, the SA rugby fanatics(read supporters) will never be able remove provincial and ridiculously lofty expectations.
1 Oct 2012, 12:21 pm
@Oliekrokenoster-2: meant to say provincial bias
1 Oct 2012, 12:24 pm
Keo are you suggesting Meyer needs to build depth and therefore we shouldn’t judge him if Goosen implodes against the ABs? Perhaps we should judge him at the World Cup?
1 Oct 2012, 12:27 pm
on another note i see money bill has been apologising to his fans for playing so k uk in japan.
he probably meant the apology for his agent.
1 Oct 2012, 12:30 pm
“15 players get to start but 30 will be needed to make the Boks the best in the business by 2015.”
Pfffffft another one advocating a 4 year plan towards 2015. Stuff that I demand 30 capable players now and a 80% win ratio from now until Heineken’s last day of his contract.
No way in hell that an everage 15 like Kirchner should be playing test rugby for the Boks when we have players with x factor like Le Roux and Coetzee ready to step up. There are more that deserve the chop like oupa JDV and the literally broke back Bekker and the less than impressive Pienaar. Pull in u20′s if you must, players like Serfontien and Botha can do no worse than some of these so called name players.
1 Oct 2012, 12:31 pm
i am not sure what keos rant is trying to say?
is he saying that we should accept mediocre seasons from players because they performed in the past?
f u u u u u u u k that.
morne got dropped for being woeful, goosen did very well.
if morne is playing better than goose in the future then we will have two experienced players to choose from.
thats a far better scenario imo.
but i agree on the booing of players, they dont select themselves.
1 Oct 2012, 12:33 pm
15 Lambie, Taute
14 JP, Hougaard
13 J Fourie, JdJ
12 Steyn, JdV
11 Habana, Rhule
10 Goosen, Jaintjies
9 Pienaar, Du Preez
8 Vermuelen, Kanko
7 Alberts, Coetzee
6 Louw, Brussouw
5 Bekker, Kruger
4 Eben, Flip
3 J Dup, Coenie
2 B Dub, Strauss
1 Beast, Gurthro
1 Oct 2012, 12:41 pm
@RL-6: Pity that the Bulls does not trust the youngsters. Arno Botha is the future Bulls number 8 and could be Vermeulen’s understudy next year, but Frans Ludeke will not pick Botha ahead of Spies. Same with Serfontein. Venter is also a very good player, but the flyhalves at Loftus does not help the development of the young centres. If they do not make changes to their gameplan and players I hope another union buys these youngsters as I want them to develop into World Class Springboks. At this stage Venter will be branded as another Olivier, but Venter is only playing according to a gameplan.
1 Oct 2012, 12:46 pm
Jammer.
Habana must go.
Finish n klaar.
Hy het nie wiele nog nie. He has no spoed left.
He werk soos a diesel donner, but he must go now.
Habana please resign.
Had a good test, maar remember the sun even shines on a dobermans asss once in a blue moon…….
1 Oct 2012, 12:47 pm
@John Galt-8:
Nice.
Realistically though I think you need 3 tighthead props in any 30-man squad. I realize Divvy didn’t, and you can get away with it, but especially when you’ve got someone like Coenie who’s still learning in the position you probably need another specialist in there. Pat Cilliers over Gurthro.
Plus Schalk Burger is our best blindside
When fit of course.
1 Oct 2012, 12:48 pm
@Horings-9: if you are good enough you are old enough – Estebeth, Taute and Goosen all u21 eligable and are performing better than oupa’s.
1 Oct 2012, 12:51 pm
@Horings-9: Arno Botha is a gem of a player…..but I fear he might end up on the same bus as CJ Stander if Spies is continously selected above all others.
I wish Ludeke, Meyer, P Divvy or in fact, anyone on the planet could tell me just what it is Spies has that makes it impossible to drop him, EVER?
Spies, Potgieter guaranteed starters for the Bulls next year, leaving Botha either on the bench or having to play 6?
I would love to hear something other than, “he is a magnificent physical specimen”, “he is a magnificent athlete”, “he can bench press 3 old ladies and a dominee holding a rottweiler with ONE hand”.
Wish someone could share with me, their observations as to why Spies is a MUST START in everyfuckingteam.
1 Oct 2012, 12:51 pm
@PielNeus-10:
Agenda.
@Horings-9:
Good call. Arno just needs a bit of backing. Few games in a row will do him the world of good. To be fair though, he was injured which cost him a starting position.
He’s only had the 1 game off the bench to go with 3 starts for the Bulls so far this Currie Cup. Wish they used him exclusively as a nr. 8 though rather then as a blindside.
1 Oct 2012, 12:53 pm
Remember when Bryan Habana got jeered in Bloemfontein? That very same day when Springbok rugby supporters unanimously declared it was time to move on from the player and those social media gurus who so generously and confidently offer all the solutions to South African rugby agreed that the majority of Currie Cup wingers were an improvement on Habana.
Indeed, I remember it well.
1 Oct 2012, 12:55 pm
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-13:
Botha probably to ride the pine behind:
6 Dewald Potgieter
7 Jacques Potgieter
8 Pierre Spies (c)
At least Deon Stegmann is likely to be relegated to Vodacom Cup duty, where he belongs. To think he’s a capped Springbok! Good life being a Blue Bull sometimes.
1 Oct 2012, 12:56 pm
@PielNeus-10: Lyk jou neus soos ‘n piel of lyk jou piel soos ‘n neus? Ek kan nie uitfigure wat is erger nie.
1 Oct 2012, 12:59 pm
@PielNeus-10: Your name fits you well.
Habana is the best backline player of the team mate, he was the only player with X-factor against the All Blacks, he has scores 5 tries in three test matches and that with a poor backline we have have now! You must be smoking some underbrush weads or something.
1 Oct 2012, 12:59 pm
@PissAnt-15: I remembered when Steyn got boooooed in PE earlier this year. Had Heineken taken heed of the publics anger then, we would have been challeinging the All Blacks for the RC trophy and possibly the world no.1 ranking too.
So guys boooo, use people power to select the right players and to influence game plans.
1 Oct 2012, 13:02 pm
@hendrikp-16: Worst loose trio in Super rugby! Stander and Botha are leagues ahead of Greese ball and aff arm.
1 Oct 2012, 13:04 pm
@goodstuff-18: don’t tell Skoppie but Habana has score more tries with Heineken (4 weeks) than he has in 4 years with Divvy.
1 Oct 2012, 13:04 pm
@PissAnt-15: The past is just that, the past, what matters is the present, Habana is the only player in the bok backline able to finish of tries. He is back and doing great, I say him and JP will be an awsome combination once again.
1 Oct 2012, 13:07 pm
@goodstuff-18: jammer heinung kont maar the whole problem, why SA will never have fibre regularity beating AB – because holding onto the past. Habana is past it, you will see on Saturday. Dont come cring on Piels shoulder, reg?
1 Oct 2012, 13:07 pm
criying
1 Oct 2012, 13:08 pm
@hendrikp-16: Then he will pull a Stander,sooner rather than later. Another victim of the Spies obsession. Fuckme, Spies has taken out more worthy Saffa loose forwards than injuries, Kiwi’s and Aussies combined.
1 Oct 2012, 13:11 pm
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-25:
He won’t pull a Stander.
The Bulls will fork out enough money to keep him around, and the fact that Heyneke Meyer has a very high opinion of him will keep him in SA.
Stander was basically told that he’s unlikely to become a Springbok under Meyer, which is why he packed his bags.
1 Oct 2012, 13:12 pm
Congratulations to the Springbok team and all their supporters on Saturday’s win are in order I believe.
It was a game well won.
1 Oct 2012, 13:13 pm
@PissAnt-15:
Brian is the Winger of his generation.
1 Oct 2012, 13:16 pm
@BrumbiesBoy-27: Cheers. The Wallabies showed a lot of spirit considering their catastrophic run of injuries.
1 Oct 2012, 13:19 pm
@PielNeus-23:iff your shoulder also looks like a piel then you can count on it.
1 Oct 2012, 13:20 pm
@hendrikp-26: How many seasons will a chap like Botha be happy to ride the bench for his provincial team, when he knows (and every other person with 2 eyes knows) he should be starting?
1 Oct 2012, 13:32 pm
@gonzo-4: Not quite. I am saying that as a public, too many, hail one player and want to bury the previous one for ever. I am saying there may be a role for two players over a period of four years or for 3 or 4 players per position over a period of 4 years. Don’t limit thinking to just this is the best 15 on Saturday and we will be the best forever. That there is always a game beyond this one and whoever produces in this one may not produce in the next one. It is about expanding and exploring all options and not limiting options.
I am talking about a principle in approach. is the South African rugby fan capable of understanding principle as opposed to who won and lost last Saturday? Or do we just accept our support base are supposedly passionate but in fact they are thick and passion is really a combination of anger and ignorance?
1 Oct 2012, 13:35 pm
The whole fascination about our selection is that most of the players that have performed were not because they were carefully picked and were put there to win the game for us but guys that have been because of injuries and also loss of form to players that were backed up despite their inefficiencies being evident. What if Spies was not injured, Vermeulen won’t have played, what if we didn’t lose Schalk, Flo wouldn have been picked, what if Steyn wasn’t embarrasingly out of form, Goosen wasn’t gonna be picked, what if F.Steyn wasn’t picked or J.Fourie was around, Taute wasn’t gonna be picked.
thats the sad story, how many players are not in the original team yet are the ones that evolves the team, compared to those that are mere a revolution but without delivering.
1 Oct 2012, 13:35 pm
I use 2015 as a trigger because it is the next WC. Rugby works in cycles of 4 years between WCups, but again ref to the climax of the cycle does not mean any ref to a four year plan.
Any business has an immediate plan, a short term and a long term plan. The game is a business, so let’s apply business principles to ensuring the success of the Boks, both short term and over a sustained period.
1 Oct 2012, 13:39 pm
@keo-32:
Effectively, you’re describing the ABs approach.
1 Oct 2012, 13:40 pm
Also not quite sure what Keo is aiming at with this article. Habana should have been placed on the bench or dropped at that stage when he was booed in Bloemfontein. Remember that we lost alot of those Tri-Nations games sticking with the same people. The players are not babies! If you have 3 not so good games in a row, why is it bad to maybe go the bench or sit the next match out so we can try something else? No matter who you are! There are tournaments at stake and sometimes hard choices need to be made. We could have won this tournament had it not been about misguided loyalties to certain players. Winning against Australia does not vindicate Meyer, his gameplan before this or certain selections. We have a long way to go but this could be the start of something beautiful. We will know more after the All Black test as we will not enjoy the same amount of opportunities. All smiles for now though.
1 Oct 2012, 13:41 pm
@rangerman-7: no don’t accept anything but don’t kill off anything either.
Any player can go off the boil or be out of the mix, but the tendency is to think that if you drop a player or let him go it has to be permanent and going back to that player is taking a step back. I am saying, assess the talent we have here, assess what is playing overseas and do an unemotional exercise about ensuring that between now and the World Cup in 2015 (NOT JUST AT THE WORLD CUP) is there 30 players of the necessary int quality to start a Test and the question you have to ask yourself is if every 1 of those 30 is good enough to start in a WC final on Saturday. That is what should be asked every week the Boks are in action between now and the WC final in 2015. That way you get an integration and a controlled exodus, an evolution of the best squad and not a revolution in which excuses are made of it being a young squad, a new era and whatever else.
I am saying apply a business principle to short and long term success.
1 Oct 2012, 13:43 pm
@keo-34: Keo give me a job doing your TV – unemployed. Here is my CV:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U38cRToxkSI&feature=channel&list=UL
Will mash it up naicelcy, got mad skillz.
Will work for R2500 per hour, each episode + about R250 000 but then you get quality like I show above.
1 Oct 2012, 13:45 pm
@John Galt-8: Just an example of how immediate thinking can be. Schalk Burger doesn’t feature in your 30. Yet once fit he would walk every starting XV in the world and he doesn’t make your 30.
Isn’t it a case of how easily and quickly we forget in the euphoria of something immediate. If the Boks get smashed on Saturday and the flankers are poor would you then be saying it is only cos Juan Smith and Schalk Burger and Spies are injured. Those are the questions we have to be asking ourselves every week and of course the nat coach and selectors must be asking. Knowing what is short, medium and long term in what is available as a player base.
1 Oct 2012, 13:46 pm
@keo-37: In this regard we could take a leaf out of the Aussies book. We should identify 30 top players in the country and ensure we skill them up as much as possible as opposed to dropping a player that does not perform once. Sure if the player has a dip inform he should be replaced by that should not be the defacto course of actiion. Sometimes our massive talent pool can also be a negative thing.
1 Oct 2012, 13:49 pm
@BrumbiesBoy-27: Can’t say I feel sorry for your guys bearing the heart wrenching losses we have had to endure at their hands recentley but I must say I really admire the Aussie tenacity. They could have taken 50+ on Saturday but even with all the injuries kept hammering away and kept the game competitive.
1 Oct 2012, 13:50 pm
@goodstuff-22:
Defined by what, game to game?
Those who get cheered today will get boo’d next week and we are back to square one.
There seems to be scant regard in the difference between form and ability for 80 minutes, or from one game to the next with the SA public and media.
There is little to no understanding that there needs to be an appreciation on the balance between both form and ability when we judge players.
Habana is actually a very good case in point. Even when areas of his game was highlighted in 2010 and 2011 as being very good it was dismissed out of hand because ‘he did not score tries’.
I am just happy for Goosen that Adriaan, Flo and Eben had their best games in a green jersey to date, with Alberts and Vermeulen also making huge strides from the weeks before and Bekker actually looking hungry again. Because if he had to play behind the pack the way they performed in Perth this blog would be littered with comments on how he is not ready yet.
I found it particularly perplexing how people on social media sniggered when JDV commentated after the game that the game plan was no different from weeks before and how Rapport ran a headline yesterday about how there was no praise for Goosen in isolation for the Bok win – who incidentally made only 1 kick less in Pretoria than what Morne Steyn did in Dunedin…
Keohane to my mind is one of the few, very few media guys that woke up to the fact that rather than looking for our next messiah in SA Rugby (while dismissing other players out of hand) we should rather concentrate on collective which make, or should make, SA Rugby and Bok rugby unbeatable.
1 Oct 2012, 13:52 pm
@keo-34: even better if all franchises traded on the JSE and the accounts were open to scrutiny. Board members were chosen on ability and business acumen. Sadly the reality is that the opposite exists.
1 Oct 2012, 13:53 pm
@keo-39: Don’t even bring Spies into the equation!
Nobody is saying just discard players (unless they remain utter shite, a la Spoes, of course) but international rugby is not the place to find form or be “coached into form”….fark that…..if a player is not performing then bring another player in who is on form and let the non-performer warm the bench or play in the lower leagues until he regains form.
The problem is that Zibi should’ve dropped//rested//whatever Stain longe before he did, and succeeded in blowing a very real chance of a win in Oz and NZ this year.
Habana was equally kak for an extended period and that should’ve been when the next guys should have been selected while Brian finds form in Super rugby or CC (which he did this year). That way the player gets less pressure and the other chap equally gains international experience.
We should’ve been able to blood at least 4 decent loosies over the last 4 years if it wasn’t for Spoes filling a slot on the roster.
1 Oct 2012, 13:54 pm
@keo-39:
Burger and Smith?
How long have they been out for? Will they ever come back? How old are they now and will they even be remotely as good as they were before and last another 2 years?
Keo, they are not forgotten, just complete unknowns.
Ive names some other injured players there in Bissie and JP etc but I at least KNOW they will be back.
Spies is not good enough, even when back from injury.
1 Oct 2012, 13:57 pm
@keo-32: i think you are getting ahead of yourself keo.
all your attempts to be as objective about things would surely see you making a living being tossed around in a nz bar if the south african fans were not as passionate as they are.
1 Oct 2012, 13:58 pm
@keo-37: Correct. This squad will be a dynamic one, with players moving in and out depending on form and age etc.
Just because Morne is out of form doesn’t mean he won’t come into contention at a later time (some will say that his international career is over but I think this is premature).
One question to ask is this:
Which of Saturday’s team is unlikely to be as sharp in 3 years time as they are now, due to the inevitable march of time?
I’d say that several will be too old, which means that the next in line will probably be the starting players come 2015 (form and injury permitting). Guys like Jean DeVilliers won’t be there (lets be honest) and it’s unlikely that Habanna will either.
Most of the forward pack is still young enough, with Bekker and his propensity for injury being a long term concern.
Thankfully there are bright young prospects waiting to get their (inevitable) chance at the top, the likes of Stephen Kitsoff, Arno Botha, Pieter Steff Du Toit, Paul Jordaan, etc.
Good times.
1 Oct 2012, 14:00 pm
@PissAnt-42:
Interestingly, our coaches are treated exactly as Keo is pointing out with players. There hasn’t been one Bok coach thats been given a second bite at the cherry. As far as SARU is concerned a fired national coach will never develop further.
1 Oct 2012, 14:01 pm
@Smallzm-36: I would apply the three 3 strike rule – scientific and fair.
Strike 1 – you stuff up badly in 3 matches you get a written warning
Strike 2 – you stuff up again in 3 matches you get a written warning and it is off to the bench for you to fight again for a starting spot.
Strike 3 – you are cut from the squad after stuffing up in 3 matches – back to provincial rugby and start from scratch.
1 Oct 2012, 14:04 pm
@RL-49: that’s 9 losses dipstiek, = 63.5 % win ratio.
clever
1 Oct 2012, 14:04 pm
@David-48:
Ironic isn’t it.
One would think is SARU appoints a guy as the head coach of the national team they would believe he is the best guy for the job.
It therefore seems coaches regress when they start their tenures as national coaches because following that, they are not even good enough for franchises or Currie Cup teams!
1 Oct 2012, 14:04 pm
Kak Keo.
Fans are tired of the Boks being used as a platform for players to regain their form.
That’s what Currie Cup and SR is for.
S*it you negative towards the SA public.
1 Oct 2012, 14:06 pm
@keo-32: I agree with you that Boks fans do seem to be bipolar. An away loss to the Wallabies and the coach must be fired. A home win vs a seriously depleted Wallabies team and Goosen is god. My maths isn’t too good but is it true that in the last ten minutes, the Wallabies played with 14 men due to injuries?
But Keo, if Bok fans weren’t bipolar your site wouldn’t be very popular. This is why I don’t visit NZ sites. What am I going to do? Sit around agreeing week after week with all my countrymen about how Savea had a good game and how Hansen has the selection right
1 Oct 2012, 14:07 pm
@David-48: Nick mallet is a classic case in point. If HM ever gets fired or decides to pack it in Mallet for me would be the next best option regardless of his history with SA Rugby
1 Oct 2012, 14:08 pm
Expected WC 2015 team, based on form, talent, age and expected retirements between now and then:
1. Kitshoff / Oosthuizen
2. Bismark/Chilli/Strauss
3. Jannie/Cilliers
4. Eben/Flip
5. Andries/Kruger
6. Flo/Kolisi
7. Coetzee/Alberts
8. Vermeulen/Botha
9. Hougaard/ Reinach/ VdWalt
10. Goosen/Jantjies
11. Rhule/ Mastriet
12. Steyn/ De Jongh
13. Taute/ Jordaan
14. JPP / Basson
15. Lambie/ Wessel
This doesn’t take into account players like Pollard and PSDT who are highly rated, players like Serfontein and Du Plessis etc who have a chance to make a claim (along with many others) in the years to come.
Pollard
PSDT
1 Oct 2012, 14:09 pm
@PissAnt-51:
Yeah, it’s like a Presidential term.
As much as I disagreed with Jakes approach in many ways, it looks like he’s grown and learnt over the years. The same could have happened to Carel.
1 Oct 2012, 14:09 pm
Habana lived on his reputation in 2010/2011 and did NOT deserve his spot with the Boks.Hell, he was lucky to make the Stormers team.
End of discussion.
He was awesome on Sat, but he’s done that by finding his form in Super Rugby, and then stepping it up for the Boks.
The Boks must never suffer because a player is out of form. A dip in form is okay. But a 2 year ‘dip’ should not be tolerated (Morne and Habana being the prime examples).
1 Oct 2012, 14:10 pm
Habana was being slated in 2010 when he was out of form and rightly so…. He should have been dropped to Super rugby to regain his form.
What is Keo suggesting? That fans were wrong to be unhappy with sub-par performances?
To keep with the Habana example – we kept playing him week in and week out even whilst he was very much out of form. Not only did this affect the Boks on the field, but it sent a bad message to aspiring wingers in the country and also meant we didn’t build depth in that position.
I for one, think there is a balance to be struck when it comes to selecting players on form and reputation. Traditionally, the Springboks have been selected too much on reputation and it has been thanks to injury and retirement that new players are forced into the side.
As always, BALANCE is the key to a successful rugby team.
1 Oct 2012, 14:11 pm
@Skeppie-54:
I agree, except that I doubt SARU, or rather the Presidents Council, would. Those b*rstards have long and vicious memories.
1 Oct 2012, 14:12 pm
@gonzo-4: Look at the OZ attrition in Saturdays game. They will struggle to find a competive team against ARG.
I think that Keo is suggesting player depth.He says that a player of equal
ability should be found BETWEEN now and 2015.The AB,s are a
good example.They could put together 2 national teams that are
equally good.Their 2nd 15 would have beaten this pitiful Oz team.
There were warning signs of their lack of depth in S15.
1 Oct 2012, 14:12 pm
Competive = competitive
1 Oct 2012, 14:12 pm
@gonzo-53:
Ja look there are a ton of nutty Bok fans.
But most of them just want the best players to play for the Boks. This does happen, but it seems to take Bok coaches an enternity to do so (Jake White’s ‘loyalty’ to Barry and Joubert comes to mind, when we had JDV and JF bashing the down the door).
1 Oct 2012, 14:16 pm
@ryecatcher-60:
Bit of myth that (the AB’s being able to field 2 equally strong teams).
Take away Carter and McCaw and they down by 20% already.
The All Blacks don’t have better personal than us, they just play a smarter more balanced game that get’s the best out of their players.
1 Oct 2012, 14:16 pm
@PissAnt-51: Saru seems to distance themselves a bit from the coach, as if they don’t want to be too closely associated if this don’t go so well. There seems to be no succession planning, no alignment, no interest in coordinating player resources, in short no desire to actually take responsibility for anything. Yet you can guarantee if the Boks win the world cup they will have all the first class seats and hotel rooms booked and their smiling faces will be seen in the winning team photos.
Incumbent coaches interviewing for the jobs they already hold. Eeeish!
1 Oct 2012, 14:16 pm
@londonshark-62: Selections are a lot tricker than face value would have you think. Even look at the AB’s they are a great side and have dominated for quite some time now but their one weakness also remains selection in some cases.
1 Oct 2012, 14:17 pm
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-25: I may have misread that Stander is going to
play overseas.
1 Oct 2012, 14:18 pm
@Kaizan-58:
Spot on.
Mark really is a self-hating South African rugby fan. He’s constantly having a go at the SA rugby public. And yes, some fans are bananas, but he’s 100% wrong on this one.
I’ll say it again, the Bok team is not the place to find form.
1 Oct 2012, 14:20 pm
@londonshark-62:
Nonsense. JdV and Jaques weren’t bashing any doors down for the centre positions when Jake dumped Joubert (who’d been struggling with a long time injury) and de Wet. In fact, I seem to remember Jake punting JdeV as a possible flyhalf.
1 Oct 2012, 14:20 pm
@londonshark-63: Possibly.But I still think that Keo,s suggestion is correct.We have so much talent that this is
something we should strive for.
1 Oct 2012, 14:22 pm
@ryecatcher-66: No, he is going to Ireland after the Currie Cup – massive loss for SA rugby.
1 Oct 2012, 14:22 pm
@cane-28: Hello Cane
1 Oct 2012, 14:24 pm
@Skeppie-65:
I agree, but some are not (tricky).
Morne for Goosen (or Lambie/Elton)was a no brainer.
Morne was out of form for 12 months before he got dropped. This should not happen.
And I know he’s 1 player, but a flyhalf can win or lose the game for you (more so than any other players).
1 Oct 2012, 14:25 pm
@ryecatcher-69: For me the big problem is that we expect players to come into the mix with all the skills and if they fail we drop them as opposed to putting structures in place that upskill players by investing in them. the Aussies are forced to do this because they cannot afford to simply drop players. Imagine if we had their attention to detail in terms of investing in our players and added our amazing talent pool to that….
1 Oct 2012, 14:26 pm
@londonshark-72: I do agree with you….Steyn and Kirchner are two selections I battled with. I agree with the way HM has eased Goosen into the mix but I would have played Lambie on the away trips as opposed to Steyn at 10 and back at home would have moved Lambie to 15 and brough Goosen in at 10.
1 Oct 2012, 14:27 pm
@David-68:
Mmm, they were IMO.
JDV was so good Jake played him at wing (just to have him in the team).
But we’ll agree to disagree
1 Oct 2012, 14:28 pm
@ryecatcher-60: Keo said it more
lucidly.
1 Oct 2012, 14:29 pm
Be warned.
On Saturday, Ma’a Nonu will commit an act of thuggery sometime in the first half to take out Johan Goosen.
It may be violent enough to take him out of the game and if not, it will still serve it’s purpose of making the young guy fear playing the All Blacks.
Am I cynical? No.
History has proven that this is the New Zealand Modus Operandi. They took out Brian O’Driscoll is similar fashion and did the same to the John Smit.
Will they get away with it? Heck yes. Always have always will.
1 Oct 2012, 14:30 pm
@Skeppie-74:
Yep, Lambie is and out and out 10 though IMO. I don’t like him at 15.
Lambie should be Goosen’s number 2 (covering both 10 and 15 from the bench). I’m not a fan of having a specialist 10 on the bench (like Elton). It means you have pick 1 less foward.
But then again, if Elton shines for the Stormers, I might have to change my mind
1 Oct 2012, 14:31 pm
@ryecatcher-76: He must be on the good stuff.
1 Oct 2012, 14:36 pm
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-70: Sad loss(Not only to the Bulls but to SA.)
1 Oct 2012, 14:37 pm
one of the better articles written by Keo
i must say i’ve seen a trend of articles that demonstrate a return to journalism and not the drivel that was spewed out when PdV was coach
1 Oct 2012, 14:38 pm
@keo-37: no sorry keo i dont understand why you are trying to talk yourself in a circle here.
if a player is out of form, he must find form at a lower level than teh boks surely?
we dont play injured players just because they had great games previously?
as for expecting every player to be able to start a wc final, that is completely unrealistic and ignores the obvious growth that comes with exposure to the game at test level.
1 Oct 2012, 14:39 pm
@Skeppie-73: 100% in agreement with
that.
1 Oct 2012, 14:40 pm
Great game Saturday.huge difference when having an attacking flyhalf.all of a sardine,the strike runners and bashers mean business.and Habana was magic.hes urgency and heart spurred on hes teammates.
1 Oct 2012, 14:45 pm
@londonshark-78: if he is an out and out 10 then why did he play 15 for the u20′s Boks while while watching Elton shine at 10 for the same team.
Elton is the rightful backup to the Goose. Kirchner is Heineken secret love child and Taute will be the man to replace the Lambster on the bench, able to cover positions 11 to 15.
1 Oct 2012, 14:57 pm
@keo-32: Keo, I agree that there needs to be squad depth and that one should never say “Player X must never see a Springbok jersey again”… But fans are always going to be emotional, passionate fans. It seems to me to be pointless, even harmful to try and sedate them. You will always get some fanatical supporters and some more measured ones. That’s life.
I think some people get annoyed by the tone of some of your articles because it seems like you are always having a go at the SA rugby public – the same rugby public you are a part of…
That being said, I see your point and completely agree about squad depth.
1 Oct 2012, 14:59 pm
While i agree with Keo that we as a rugby public are too fickle, i disagree that when a player is off form we should just stick with him.
PdV did Habana a disservice by playing him when he was soo low on confidence that eventually lead him to being boo’d.
HM was at least forced/convinced to prevent the same from happening to MS as if it had happened at Loftus i dont see how MS could’ve come back, mentally, from that!
it actually then illustrates the character of Habana that he’s managed to come back after that
1 Oct 2012, 14:59 pm
@RL-85: quotas
1 Oct 2012, 15:00 pm
On a 2nd point, sticking with players come hell or high water illustrates the opposite of what Keo is trying to point out in putting faith in 30 players instead of 15. We kept Goosen and Jantjies off for so long believing Steyn would bring us through and fear that it was too early to bring the youngsters in…Thats nonsense
in aiming to have 30 solid players we need to put faith in all the players at 1 point or another and especially when the starting players are not performing well.
i’ve seen many guys ask where will Schalk, Juan Smith fit in when fit?? they dont have to start unless it will be inline with a combination that will work!
And there’s nothing wrong with having a threatening bench that puts fear into the opposition even before the ball has been kicked
1 Oct 2012, 15:01 pm
Nice semicolon keo.
Very classy.
1 Oct 2012, 15:01 pm
@papaown-87: in fact HM was unfair to MS by sticking with him as long as he did though i do understand that an overseas leg of the 4n is no time to blood a young un.
i mean look at how goose cried on sat?
1 Oct 2012, 15:03 pm
@rangerman-88: every team must have a lion or they feel left out
1 Oct 2012, 15:06 pm
@rangerman-88: Elton is on his way to the guppy tank to make the 10 jersey his own.
1 Oct 2012, 15:13 pm
@RL-93: we will teach him what a world class union is like buddy and once he tastes the lifestyle in durbs he aint coming back so get used to that.
1 Oct 2012, 15:14 pm
@rangerman-91: But that is the wall HM backed himself into by not introducing Jantjies in 3rd test against England or trusting Lambie to have a go@10. Ofcourse Goosen is young and this showed in his missed kicks and poor option taking in not releasing the ball for us to score after he made the break.
Any of our current flyhalves were a better option than MS as he was overplayed, low on confidence and simply not providing the backline with enough direction to take/make opportunities.
We as saffa’s play the game sometimes with soo much fear of winning we dont give ourselves enough chance to win.
i’ve said adnausem how in 2012 we should never have lost to an Australian side, it is a team with too many injuries and a coach that is at his end in terms of moving the team forward
1 Oct 2012, 15:15 pm
@RL-93: is this confirmed or still hearsay?
1 Oct 2012, 15:17 pm
@rangerman-94: It’s a loan, remember. Think of him as your wedding tux. Have fun, enjoy the moment, but spill stuff all over it and you’ll pay. We want him back just as you received him.
1 Oct 2012, 15:17 pm
@papaown-89: Times have changed, do we absolutely need Shalk ? I think that ship is sailing as Flo is filling that role with a lot more intelligence.
Alberts also is a first choice with Vermulen for me, please please no more Spies ..In fact Morne and Spies should go overseas for a stint to broaden their horizons.
Chilli I still rate although he is behind Strauss now ..
1 Oct 2012, 15:17 pm
@papaown-95: maybe you are right.
its a new team bud so i fully expected a work in progress.
1 Oct 2012, 15:19 pm
@katman-97: haha, maybe it is bud, maybe.
i like the analogy though.
1 Oct 2012, 15:20 pm
@rangerman-99: 1989… thats all i’ll say
1 Oct 2012, 15:20 pm
@papaown-96: Poor call, he should go to WP as grant is never going to make Boks ..
1 Oct 2012, 15:22 pm
@papaown-101: ?
you lost me bud.
1 Oct 2012, 15:24 pm
@Doughnut-98: my point is..we dont NEED any of the players as we have enough to produce a competitive team if we select the correct combinations.
There’s no shame in having a player like Schalk on bench or even playing him and having Alberts on bench etc. its about 30 mean and a match day 22 that will do the most damage to the opposition on the day.
No player makes the team but we have enough quality to truly dominate the game or at least not lose to the likes of Scotland or put the All Blacks away when we have a similar opportunity to what was presented in Dunedin 3 weeks ago
1 Oct 2012, 15:25 pm
@rangerman-82: i don’t know why some here are trying to claim that habana got back his form because 2 different coaches persisted playing him even when he was OFF FORM!
habana has had reams of column space in SA Rugby magazine talking about getting “his mojo back” and “answering his critics” etc! it is neither fickle not short-sighted for Bok fans to demand excellence from every Bok player on the park!
Keo if i PAY R450/500 to watch a Test match, F.UCK if i will accept MEDIOCRITY! the coach can rotate, manage, coach-back-to-form, mollycoddle whoever he wants but he must know that when those players get on the field i EXPECT them to WIN!
1 Oct 2012, 15:25 pm
I doubt whether Keo is suggesting persisting with out of form players, just not discarding them totally. Look at how the ABs have chopped and changed players over the years without relegating them to the scrap heap.. As for keeping them all in the 30 man squad, that’s unrealistic. Give a player a run for the Boks if he seems good enough, and if he isn’t up to it or has a loss of form, let him develop further in the S15. At least we’d know where our genuine depth lay if we need it.
1 Oct 2012, 15:27 pm
@rangerman-103: 1989… that was the last time i was wrong
1 Oct 2012, 15:27 pm
@Transformation-105: exactly bud.
this rant is just a load of k uk.
we must grow up and accept mediocrity is keos refrain.
1 Oct 2012, 15:27 pm
@Transformation-105:
That may just wake SARU up.
Are you suggesting that if the Boks don’t win, you’d want your money back?
1 Oct 2012, 15:35 pm
@ryecatcher-60: @ryecatcher-60: The NZ A & B team being of equal value is a myth from a few years back when Henry fielded different 15s against Wales and Ireland and whipped them both. If we were like the Wallabies are now, down to their fourth choice captain and finishing the game with only 14 players because of injury (and some strange refereeing) the Boks would’ve whipped us too. I didn’t even recognise some of the players! Not watching enough Force/Rebels games I guess
@YoMama-77: By your logic McCaw better watch out for flying elbows again
1 Oct 2012, 15:44 pm
@David-109: not at all…just that we mustn’t be taken for granted!
new zealanders discard people too lauaki, eaton, ross, donald, delaney, boric, so’oialo, ranger, masaga etc.
1 Oct 2012, 16:28 pm
Keo if you saying people should not have strong emotions towards a team they spend thousands of Rands on then you are smoking a combination of socks and draws. People should vent. People are also right in not accepting mediocraty. Its these fans that make rugby profitable. So let them demand what they think is right.
1 Oct 2012, 16:50 pm
Damn it, Keo ! Do all you guys on this blog only think in terms of WC ? We can will all the WC from 2015 to Armageddon, the ABs will still be regarded as the world’s best team if they keep winning most of the tests in between ! What we want is a team that is consistent, not some king of Halley comet.
1 Oct 2012, 17:01 pm
@Transformation-111: Agree with your point. Just to make sure Boric’s reputation isn’t sullied though, he is recovering from back surgery and will be out for six months. Otherwise, I’m sure he’d be in the squad.
And Lauaki’s career was always going to be short lived after his massive fend on McCaw in 2007. In some of my darkest moments, i’ve decided that his fend and chip kick that killed the Crusaders’ season, indirectly led to the Bulls winning the comp and SA kicking on to win the world cup. It probably also led to Meyer’s appointment. Talk about a butterfly effect.
Lauaki’s problems with alcohol and violence may have also led to him being dropped but hey, the fend is more fun to remember
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJZa4ZIyItc
1 Oct 2012, 17:12 pm
@gonzo-114: jimmy cowan had as many booze-fuelled misdemeanours as sione…
1 Oct 2012, 18:22 pm
Tos man Keo. Answer me this….
Oppose to = ot
What is the point of having talented youths for example like Jordaan/JDJ (ot JDV), Rhule (ot Habana), Jantjies (ot MS), Coetzee (ot Kirchner), Lambie (ot MS/Kirchner), Stander (ot Spies) etc. if they dont get to play for the boks at an early stage to gain experience and consequently become a great settled squad?
There’s always talk of a balance between youth and experience… After one or two seasons together a group of 30 young players will have enough experience to keep the continuity and success of the team going. And wouldnt you know it, if they start early most of them will still be young enough to play together for many years as a settled team…
Besides you will never have a group of 30 with just a bunch of young players. These days, due to the amount of rugby being played, a bok squad should not have too much ‘experience’…
These days a bok should never reach 100 test caps… Matfield, Smit, FdP all played far too much games than they deserved to play…when considering the ‘name’ players’ form and age players like Pienaar, Bekker and Bismark all had to take a back seat when they were in their prime (Bis still the Business though)…
And using Habana as an excuse not to let youngsters play is crrap… If Habana was dropped a year ago or two ago, who is to say his replacement would not have started a brilliant test career we would all be raving on about now…? Marcel Coetzee is a perfect example of how youth made the step up and replaced ‘experience’ (Burger) without weakening the team…
I say exterminate players like JDV and Kirschner if the coach can pick youngsters who deserve to prove themselves. If youre good enough youre old enough..Fukc integration. Gain the experience together and become great together.
IMO
1 Oct 2012, 18:22 pm
@gonzo-114: Boric sounds like the
baddie in a Bond movie.
1 Oct 2012, 18:32 pm
@Transformation-111:
Come now you can do much better research than that…
Jason Eaton, 17 caps, 10 as a sub
Lauaki, 17 caps, 11 as a sub
Ross, 8 caps in their worst year in recent memory (2009)
Donald, 23 caps, 15 as a sub
Delaney, 1 cap, against Italy…
Boric, 24 caps, 17 as a sub
Ranger, 3 caps, to as a sub
Masaga, 1 cap, against Italy.
So’oialo had a long and distinguished career which started in 2002 captaining the All Blacks at times in Richie McCaw’s absence. With Collins and McCaw, they were regarded as the best loosie combo in the world for many years. Injuries took its toll on him together with the fact that Kieran Read emerged in 2008/09 – 6 years after So’oialo made his debut. Injuries meant the end of his career.
So with the exception of Rodney, who was 30 when he played his last test, none of the players you mentioned are in the class or with the level of experience and records with the two Bok players in question here, Habana and Steyn.
You are slipping, throwing names around are not always impressive.
1 Oct 2012, 18:57 pm
Uhh this article is buggered. It is entirely within the supporters “rights” to expect a player that under performs for a long period of time to be dropped. Just like they jeered Ruan Pienaar and now Morne Steyn.
The only idiocy that the supporters need to mature from is this Plan A, Plan B rubbish that they keep on repeating.
1 Oct 2012, 20:03 pm
@PissAnt-118: ooh hoo…what about sivivatu who was DROPPED last year after 45 tests & @ 29 for a centre like kahui?
rocokocoko? dropped & he is 29
these okes are of the SAME pedigree as habana & far much more classier than one-dimensional steyn but they were LET GO when their form became inconsistent!
1 Oct 2012, 20:06 pm
@PissAnt-118: throwing names my arse…those two wings were dropped for a fullback & wing…
1 Oct 2012, 20:07 pm
fullback & centre.
1 Oct 2012, 20:46 pm
@Transformation-120:
Sivi? Injuries. In fact, such was the faith in Sivi that he was selected on the EOYT for 2010 even though he was injured for much of the season.
In 2011 his injuries included another shoulder injury (which kept him out for much of 2010 when he had shoulder reconstruction), a knee injury, a hamstring injury and a fractured eye-socket.
Henry even admitted in 2011 that Sivi proved his worth after he (Henry) thought he was past his sell-by date and the then the eye-injury happened before the PE test against the Boks (the last before the RWC).
Joe made his debut in 2003, even though he lost form the AB’s stuck with him allowing his to regains form even though he seemed to lose it all by 2005 – he did however regain that form and went to the RWC in 2007. His form was again up and down through the period 2008 to 2010 even in the face of many other talented wings coming through.
For a player that ‘lost his form’ in 2005 already but managed to pay his last test in 2010, five years later, shows you just how much the AB’s stuck with ‘an out of form player’
1 Oct 2012, 21:22 pm
But I am tired and bored.
Later.
1 Oct 2012, 21:26 pm
@PissAnt-123: ag please man i’m not advocating for players to WRITTEN OFF i’m saying when a guy is off form he can be dropped like joe rokocoko was dropped by henry for the 2009 eoyt after being ‘exposed’ by Bok high bombs in the tri-nations, henry picked jane, sivi & mils as his back three joe had to gain his form at the Blues & NOT in an all black jersey!
“coaching players back to form” while they negatively affect the Boks results is nonsensical!
JPP in 2008 slumped in super rugby after being the leading try-score in ’07 pdv said he will recondition him and jpp only saw game time in europe in NOVEMBER!
clear?
1 Oct 2012, 21:28 pm
nobody asked you to engage so you being bored is your own problem…deal with it.
1 Oct 2012, 21:39 pm
@Transformation-125:
In 2008 JPP was back against the All Blacks in Dunedin already, only missing the demolition of the Aussies in JHB otherwise playing every single test since the 3N tour that year.
Joe was dropped BEFORE the 2009 EOYT after completing the full 3N in 2009. He was back for the incoming tours of 2010, the 3N and the EOYT that year.
Like I said, you’re slipping.
FACT is, your idea of form, or that of any supporter is a far cry off from what the coaches know and think. Even with the All Blacks.
1 Oct 2012, 21:40 pm
@Transformation-126:
Yes my fault, don’t know why I engaged in this when its clear your facts are screwed up.
Gone.
1 Oct 2012, 22:42 pm
@PissAnt-127: you must be drunk!
“Joe was dropped BEFORE the 2009 EOYT after completing the full 3N in 2009. He was back for the incoming tours of 2010, the 3N and the EOYT that year.
Like I said, you’re slipping.”
didn’t i say he was dropped after a dismal tri-nations where he was “exposed” by Bok high bombs?
he was actually eager to play the aussies because as he said “they like to play with width”
in 2010 the rules had been changed duh…
yes, you’re a know-it-all pissant, you’re not slipping
1 Oct 2012, 23:01 pm
Oops, misread that one line.
Is that your standard response? You must be drunk? What should I assume about you then? Just stupidity? Ignorance?
No alcohol but I am rather tired.
Funny how you latch onto one error I made when reading your posts but fail to respond to any other…
And what the hell has law changes got to do with anything? He was persisted with since 2005 when ‘he lost form’ and even after being dropped in in 2009 for one tour he was back in 2010 for all the tours and competitions.
Never claimed I was a know-it-all, but with so many factual errors and assumptions on your part stated as fact just throwing names about it does seem that I do appreciate context a whole lot more than you do.
But don’t let that stop you, I have little to nothing lined up for tomorrow, so please continue to throw names around.
2 Oct 2012, 00:35 am
@PissAnt-130: i should then assume “you are slipping” is your standard response too?
just know any dismissive, sarcastic nonsense from you will be returned with equal contempt however highly you think of yourself.
“latch on to one error”? go to sleep man…
you agree with keo that out of form players must be played back to form in a bok jersey and i disagree! no need get huffy ffs!
2 Oct 2012, 00:43 am
@PissAnt-130: maybe you should’ve read the following line carefully too before you engaged…
“Being irrational, being emotional and being stupid does not constitute passion.”
2 Oct 2012, 04:14 am
I do think that SA coaches are too conservative, sticking with tried and trusted. If a player is in eth form of his life, give him a chance to start, and show what he is capable of. It keeps teh incumbent on his toes knowing that starting is not a given.
2 Oct 2012, 07:14 am
Looking too far as usual
lets take it game by game
am suprise Keo never entered coaching
2 Oct 2012, 08:35 am
@Transformation-132:
Seems you again fail to get the point sunshine. You are slipping because your research is pretty good most of the time.
90% of the names you mentioned have not started even 10 tests. Those who did was discussed at length.
Let me break it down for you…
ANY coach will stick with an experienced player for as long as possible even if he is perceived by the public and media to be out of form – that includes the All Blacks.
Sometimes they make a great comeback, sometimes they don’t.
2 Oct 2012, 14:59 pm
Get serious – habana was at one stage sonout of form (and I thought he was one of the worlds best at one stage) that every single one of the opposition teams even at s15 level were actually targetting his week.
This is one area where meyer has made a massive career resurrection and one selection he has got spot on but he’s got a whole host of others spot wrong.
In fact if he had listened to these selfsame passionate/stupid fans from the get-go we would have drawn to Argie and lost to oz – and he’s still not learnt his lesson by picking bulletjies who have won nothing and ge will continue to be exposed with such mediocre selections.
Morne is another case in point, I hve had faith until the cows come home but if bad form persists the player must be dropped to recover his form, you don’t keep persisting with a player particularly where u have someone like goosen kicking down tge door – that is real stupidity personified and conservatism uitgeknip.
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