Frans out for three months
2 Oct 2012
Frans Steyn will undergo an ankle operation on Wednesday that will rule him out of rugby for the rest of 2012.
Steyn sustained the injury in training last week, and was not considered for the Test against Australia at Loftus Versfeld. The latest news from the Bok medical team is that Steyn’s injury is serious, and that immediate surgery is the best course of action in the context of his long-term career.
‘We made the decision to have the surgery, to get in there and clean it out properly,’ said Bok team doctor Craig Roberts. ‘He will be out for three months, which is a blow in terms of the coming game [against the All Blacks] and the end-of-year tour, but we felt it’s a good decision in the long-term.
‘Frans is a youngster and can play 60 more Tests if we manage him well. This is the right thing to do. We will get him into good shape before the 2013 season, and he will enjoy a full pre-season programme.’
Meanwhile, prop Coenie Oosthuizen won’t be available for the next Test against the All Blacks. Oosthuizen recently made his comeback from a neck injury, but Roberts is not happy that the prop has completely recovered. Roberts said the Boks will seek the advice of a specialist this week to determine whether Oosthuizen needs more time on the sideline.
Flank Jacques Potgieter picked up an abdominal strain when he played for the Bulls last week, and so is also unavailable for the Boks.
Of those that were hurt in last Saturday’s Test in Pretoria, fullback Zane Kirchner is the biggest concern. Kirchner came out of that clash with a bruised hip, the result of colliding with Wallabies centre Adam Ashley-Cooper’s head when he attempted to score a try.
Kirchner did not train with the Boks at St Peters College on Monday, but Roberts said the Boks would give Kirchner another two days to recover before making a call on his availability.
Bok coach Heyneke Meyer said on Monday that he wouldn’t change the starting line-up this week unless he had to. If Kirchner is fit, he will play at fullback. If he fails to recover sufficiently, Pat Lambie will wear the No 15 jersey.
Flyhalf Johan Goosen (ankle) didn’t train either on Monday, but Roberts said this was precautionary more than anything else.
The same applied to prop Jannie du Plessis and flank Willem Alberts, who did not take part in any of the training drills but are expected to be fit for the Rugby Championship finale at Soccer City.
Utility back Lionel Mapoe and loose forward Arno Botha have been called up to provide cover.
‘Seeing that Willem is also not 100% at the moment, we only have three fit loose forwards in the squad and needed someone to provide cover at blindside flank and No 8, which is why Arno is coming to join us. He was part of our Young Guns squad in June as has been in our plans before,’ said Meyer.
‘Lionel has been in great form lately and apart from providing cover in the midfield, he can also be used on the wing if necessary.’
By Jon Cardinelli, in Johannesburg
271 Comments
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1 Oct 2012, 19:54 pm
@David-50: Im not convinced that Taute is ready yet. He played ok though but I would have had JDJ on before him, and Lambie at 15.
Cannot fault Kirschners play on Saturday though and on that basis he deserves to stay.
1 Oct 2012, 19:59 pm
@fitz1ella-26:
@Puma-28:
Would be a dream comes true to watch JdJ facing Nomu and SBW, not this year unfortunately,,,
1 Oct 2012, 20:07 pm
@Hondo-52: You wan king to much young man… how many seasons has JDJ played Super rugby and faced all of the AB’s.. Go and check your wallet again.. you short of a few pennies and that condom is past its expiry date.
Get over the fact that your mum is shagging a black man.. move on. Embrace change
1 Oct 2012, 20:08 pm
two very good inclusions .. like I said this coach getting it right eventually by default.. not by design
Mapoe into back line better than Steyn in current form and condition..
Arno Botha the best up and coming loosie apart from Siya Kolisi (who Meyer fck’d up by sending him back to CC to get injured) to cover for Alberts and Vermeulen.
Mapoe can cover anywhere from 11 – 13 – 14
Botha covers 7 and 8 very effectively
1 Oct 2012, 20:14 pm
The Boks had a Stainless performance on Saturday.. Both Steyns have always been kak compared to the available talent.. HM is probably looking to bring Butch back as cover for Goosen.. The man has al least proven that the best Afrikaner Coach in the country is kakker than the worst Black Bok coach
1 Oct 2012, 20:16 pm
@stormersboy-51:
Neither am I, but I was working on the basis that he’s already there and HM won’t drop him. IMO Lambie is a far better 10 than 12, but HM has already committed himself on that discussion. HMs problem is that he now has 4 10s (if you include Lambie) contesting one position, and I reckon he’s taken the easy way out by designating Lambie as a 15 contender.
1 Oct 2012, 20:23 pm
JdJ to 13 and Lambie to 15.
Roberts your mother’s brother.
1 Oct 2012, 20:26 pm
where is JJ Engelbrecht, is he chopped liver?
1 Oct 2012, 20:36 pm
I like chocolate brownies and black kwafee with half a teaspoon of brown treacle sugar and yet some call me pro-white? Mad innit?
1 Oct 2012, 20:39 pm
I’m sure it has been mentioned here but I would like to congratulate Bryan Habana for an outstanding game on Saturday!
What I particularly liked on Saturday was how he sparked things; in other words instead of waiting for things to happen on his wing he looked to make things happen!
You need 2 to 3 players like that in a team; players who sense when a move is on. Meyer with his strong pref for structure must grasp this and unshackle the players to express themselves, that is to RISK
1 Oct 2012, 20:42 pm
@Transformation-58:
Come to the Bulls and be a Bok.
Even at Province, while we rated him, he was still work in progress. Same applied to Sadie. And the Bulls fell for it hook line and sinker.
1 Oct 2012, 20:43 pm
I’ve heard from a few people that they don’t particularly like Joel Stransky but I like him; in the absence of Darren Scott he is no doubt our best post match interviewer.
I liked it when he said while commentating: ‘ Oh come on Heyneke Meyer, give the youngsters a chance’ referring to Elton J and Juan who had to wait an eternity before the baas gave the green light for them to go on…
And then to Nathan Sharpe: ‘ You look a bit perplexed’
1 Oct 2012, 20:43 pm
@fitz1ella-54: You gonna stick to that theory of yours until you are blue in the face. Just admit that Heyneke got most calls correct recently and he has slipped out of the one trap even I feared he will fall into. That trap being one all of our previous coaches fell into. Fact is Arno Botha, Goosen, Taute, Vermeulen, etc have been part of his plans from the start. Next one in line is Serfontein. If only the Bulls did not stand in his way.
Meyer will help us build a new and better Bok era.
1 Oct 2012, 20:44 pm
Meyer made a massive statement on Saturday when he got the two coloured players on with three minutes left.He basically showed the c community the middle finger,getting the message across that he is the boss and that they should not fck with him.
1 Oct 2012, 20:45 pm
@Sheriff-60:
Things didn’t always go Habana’s way last year. But one thing you could never criticise him for was his work rate. It was just a matter of time before it clicked for him.
1 Oct 2012, 20:50 pm
@I am a stormer-65:
Yes, he always gave 120% – there can be no doubt about it!
At times he tried too hard, but I’ve seen a more centred Habana who is less worried about the big screen and is focused on the task at hand.
1 Oct 2012, 20:53 pm
@Sheriff-66:
Sheryl Caulder.
Boks need to get her back.
1 Oct 2012, 20:53 pm
And the critism he is getting for picking Botha is again unfair. It is not different than Jake who picked many of his U21s. Meyer just recruited his U21s at the Bulls. It is better than holding onto the old Bulls players. In any case, he is not doing the Bulls any favour by picking Botha. I am a bit pissed off he picked Botha and to make it worse he gave Griquas a boost by picking not only Jantjies and Taute but now Mapoe.
1 Oct 2012, 21:00 pm
@wnbb-64:
That’s a harsh statement, because it will always be a coach’s prerog to decide when to send the players on.
But there is an element of truth in what you say. Meyer cleared his bench and then had EJ and JdJ left; the then had them warmed up for a considerable time and an awkardness (for lack of a better word) came about as the camera and commentators started anticipated them running on when the game was beyond doubt.
But Meyer would not give the go ahead; I felt he was quite deliberately VERKRAMP and Joel picked up on that – see my post 62
Control. Control. There is a positive relationship between fear and need for control. The greater the fear, the stronger the need for control.
Even John Mitchell referred to the fact that for those players to feel part of the 22 the coach has to get his timing right to ensure a 22 man effort and complete buy-in
1 Oct 2012, 21:02 pm
@gunther-67:
Yes Dr Sherylle Calder can add value – I agree.
1 Oct 2012, 21:08 pm
@Sheriff-69: I assume the same is then true about Tiaan Liebenberg, as he was sent on at the same time.
1 Oct 2012, 21:10 pm
Very glad about Mapoe… He is having a blinder in the CC!! He should be included for the EOYT!! Playing Taute for that amount of time was a BAD decision by Meyer. BUT Meyer likes them big in stead of skillfull (thinking Spies here…)
1 Oct 2012, 21:10 pm
I think Habana had a bit of an identity crisis since his move to the Cape.At Loftus he was adored by the Afrikaner klippies and coke boepens masses.In the Cape he had to deal with a different type of Afrikaner that didn’t take too kindly to Htties trying to be too clever than their Aryan brothers.He struggled with these new development in his career,but ever since decided that he doesn’t need the adoration of those rock spiders to be the player he wants to be his rugby started to reach new heights again.
1 Oct 2012, 21:10 pm
Meyer is getting it right by trial and error uiteindelik
He wanted FdP and Matfield.. he got JdV by default
He wanted Potgieter and Spies.. he got Louw and Vermeulen by default
He tried out with Daniel, Coetsee, Kankowski, Potgieter.. and now he getting it right with Coetsee and Botha as his 2 loosie cover men, though he missed a trick overlooking Brussow and Kolisi
He wanted FdP and M. Steyn.. now he got Pienaar and Goosen BUT he has stuffed up Hougaard like nobodies business because he is so blinded by the FdP kick chase game plan that fluked him a 2007 Super trophy so he plays Pienaar ahead of Hougaard.. WRONG Herr Heyneke WRONG !!!
He has almost destroyed Hougaards scrum half career and he could do same to Goosen if not careful
He wanted F. Steyn and J. Fourie now he’s forced to consider JdV, De Jongh, Taute, and Mapoe
He still sticks with Kirchner but he should play Taute at back or Lambie perhaps.. or if he was really brave he would try W. Le Roux.
He’s getting it right but the fears are that he could destabilize Goosen by giving Pienaar full control of the entire kicking game and the behind the scrum decision taking ala FdP..
He should have sent Jantjies and De Jongh on at 61 minutes.. I watched the game again this afternoon and at 60 minutes Habana scored the 3rd try to go 21-3 up.. at 65 minutes Aussie scored a try .. he told Jantjies and De Jongh to warm up before that but never brought them on.. then deliberated another 10 minutes while making excuses he was waiting for us to get out of our half and out of danger when once those 2 came on too late they actually were INSTRUMENTAL in getting us out of danger.. Who knows perhaps if he’d been brave enough and not crippled by insular cowardice that Jantjies and De Jongh were inferior to his other gifted lieflings they may NOT have let in the Aussie try..
Ultimately it was Jantjies pass that sent Louw away to dummy the scrummy and put Habana in for his hatrick
At 61 minutes De Jongh and Jantjies should have been on.. not at 75 minutes.
1 Oct 2012, 21:16 pm
Bad news this. He’ll/He’d be very dangerous running off Goosen.
1 Oct 2012, 21:17 pm
Poor poor Lionel.
1 Oct 2012, 21:20 pm
@fitz1ella-74: Funny that he made a point to pick out Goosen, Vermeulen and Taute in the Super 15. Then they got injured so he had to pick Steyn, Spies and Jean de Villiers at 13. I was the only one predicting him picking Louw, you lot wished he would pick him but he was also injured. Brussow has been awful this entire year, except two games just after the England series. Marnus Schoeman again outplayed him this past weekend.
1 Oct 2012, 21:22 pm
@Horings-71:
I seem to think that Pat Cilliers was brought on just before EJ and JdJ.
I see Skoppie says that the replay shows that Meyer as early as 65 min to start with the warm-up; not sure exactly when Tiaan went on; maybe before Pat Ciliers?
The fact is that the cameras and by implication the public started anticipating that those guys would run on especially as the game was beyond doubt. But again he would not let go…
The Aussies as we all know suffered terrible injuries and there are rumours that things are not well in the camp. We know of the Quade Cooper incident and to be honest I got the impression that the Wallabies are in a mess at the moment. Who will forget Will Genia’s misunderstanding with Rod Kafer – how bizarre!!
This coming weekend will be the real test. The ABs are desperate to correct their wrongs of last year.
1 Oct 2012, 21:24 pm
Arno Botha’s call up makes zero sense.
1 Oct 2012, 21:26 pm
@gunther-67: Yes Taute could use a spell under her watchful gaze.
He needs to sharpen up in the handling dept.
1 Oct 2012, 21:26 pm
@Sheriff-78: That the cameras played a role is without a doubt true, but Tiaan ran on with them so he would also have stood there somewhere.
Meyer is busy fighting for his career and I promise you he is too busy to think how his decisions will influence every paranoid individual in this country.
1 Oct 2012, 21:28 pm
@PissAnt-79: How do you mean?
1 Oct 2012, 21:29 pm
@PissAnt-79: It makes zero sense because he will not be in the 22. Neither will Mapoe.
Do you think the call makes zero sense because there is someone better or because of the reason above?
1 Oct 2012, 21:30 pm
@stormersboy-80:
All the boks would benefit.
Especially since we are trying to work on the offload and support runners aspect.
She would be a trump card.
1 Oct 2012, 21:31 pm
@Horings-77: he would always have picked Morne before Goosen and only brought Goosen in slowly due to his slow learning curve conservative mindset..
He had Lambie and Jantjies available since the England series but never used either at 10 and LOST 2 games he should have won plus drew 2 he should never have drawn .. ALL down to being too afraid to let go of Morne Steyn as his tried and tested No. 10 goal kicking ace who has stuffed up the Boks game since 2009 with his one dimensional static game.. along with FdP at 9..
He also would never have selected Taute ahead of JdV because he didn’t have a captain.. so JdV was the first on his team sheet after selecting F. Steyn at 12 because he had to play JdV somewhere to captain the side…
funnily enough I think I was perhaps the first one here to say around 2 years ago that Frans Louw would be my call for Bok captain if it were not JdV.. and you know I was calling for Smit to resign as long ago as 2009.
1 Oct 2012, 21:31 pm
@gunther-84: It’s amazing that, with all the value she added under Jake and the credit given to her at the time that she wouldn’t be on a permanent retainer by SARU.
Beggars belief really.
1 Oct 2012, 21:35 pm
@Horings-81:
One thing I must tell you about PdV – as crazy as what he was with his statements I never doubted his commitment to try and contribute to harmony in SA
In fact, I think he actually overcompensated at times, but it’s tough to be in the role.
Meyer must realize that SA rugby is not just about him and his ideas. Yes he is in the role but has a responsibility to be fair and not be biased in any way. We also have to say that he will not please all the people all the time.
But if he wants my vote, he needs to take people with him.
1 Oct 2012, 21:37 pm
@fitz1ella-85: Difference is you called for Louw’s inclusion. I did not say I wanted Louw in. I said I predicted Meyer will pick him. I do not hink anyone thought he will go with Louw as Meyer at the time was accused of being pro Bulls and not looking at overseas players. Mapoe’s inclusion did surprise me as Meyer likes honest guys and Mapoe really did not look good in the Cheetahs, Sharks and Lions saga, but I do not know what hapenned behind the scenes.
1 Oct 2012, 21:42 pm
@fitz1ella-74:
> He wanted FdP and Matfield..
Yes, he needed some of the 900 plus tests worth of experience from the 2011 squad in his team,
They played against the Poms with about 250 tests between them
> he got JdV by default
He could have picked Spies, imagine how you would have moaned then?
> He wanted Potgieter and Spies.. he got Louw and Vermeulen by default
Correction he wanted Vermeulen, Schalk and Juan, ALL WERE INJURED, and he MADE DO with Potgieter
He had Bismarck as a fetcher, when he got injured he needed one and got a very good Louw
> He wanted FdP and M. Steyn.. now he got Pienaar and Goosen
Correction he wanted Fdp to mentor and help Goosen in his first season, FdP declined and Goosen was INJURED
> He wanted F. Steyn and J. Fourie now he’s forced to consider JdV, De Jongh, Taute, and Mapoe
Any coach on the planet would play Jaque Fourie if he’s available
F.Steyn and JdV were always in the running, and HM said Taute would be a Bok but he was INJURED
Why did you say nothing last year when AC played JdV and Jaque for the whole S15 season and De Jong sat on the bench? And when Snor didn’t pick him you also didn’t play the race card?
> He still sticks with Kirchner but he should play Taute at back or Lambie perhaps
You forget the quota numbers, Kircher is a safe way to bring it up and he’s a good player too
> plays Pienaar ahead of Hougaard.. WRONG Herr Heyneke WRONG
RIGHT choice, he calmed the youngster Goosen and he was one of the best Boks on the field
> He has almost destroyed Hougaards scrum half career
Hougie desroyed his own career by playing on the wings for the S14 Bulls instead of developing as a scrumhalf in the Vodacom and Currie Cup. At this stage he’s a talented player but a k@k scrumhalf
> Herr Heyneke
And please stop this Herr ****, they guy’s a South African, he’s not German or what do you imply?
1 Oct 2012, 21:44 pm
@fitz1ella-85: I think Heyneke was a bit scared to throw away all the experienced guys, but JdV and Morne was not his long term solutions from the start so to say it is good selections by design is not true. If all was fit his experienced players on the long term will consist out of Bismark du Plessis, Juan Smith, Francois Steyn, Jannie du Plessis, Habana, JPP and Fourie du Preez. More than enough experience there.
It was clear he was hesitant on selecting JdV as his long term captain and I think Juan Smith or Fourie du Preez was his preferred choice. Matfield was never really in his long term plans.
1 Oct 2012, 21:48 pm
@victoriabok-89: We seem to agree 100% and you have a good recollection and understanding of all Heyneke’s statements in the media.
His next plan is to bring in the next generation as quick as possible, hence Botha. Next Serfontein who then? Pieter Steph du Toit?
1 Oct 2012, 21:50 pm
@Horings-91: Stephen Kitchoff, Frans Malherbe?
1 Oct 2012, 21:50 pm
@Horings-88: Louw should have played in WC 1/4 final last year ahead of Brussow who went on the field injured and couldn’t protect Burger when Aussie loosies creamed him and scored against the run of play.. If Louw had started that game I don’t think we would have lost.. discounting the fact that Smit should never have started ahead of Bismark and neither should Spies or FdP have started ahead of Alberts and Hougaard.
I think Mallet is giving HM plenty tips as they have worked together before and I think HM is lending an ear now to Mallets calls and ideas.. so the Louw inclusion could be coming from there perhaps. But Louw was the right call and I for one say it is a better call in this scenario than Brussow because Louw offers more than just a ground ball fetching role.. though if Louw goes down we have a problem because then the balance is all stuffed up again.. and Botha is not an open side cover and neither is Coetsee.
Mapoe has been an exciting player for some time and I always rated him first as a No. 13 before a wing.. he was played out of position far too long before Mitchel recognized his talents at 13 and that is where he should always have played even at Sharks and Cheetahs.. who actually didn’t do his career any favors because they didn’t respect him as much as they did their more celebrated (white) players ahead of him. Lions put Mapoe on the map .. and he should have been a Bok already in PdV’s time ahead of some like Olivier and could have come on instead of Jacobs when Jacobs was losing his speed and precision…
Anyway now is a good a time as ever,. he is far better ball player than somebody like Mvovo, and even Basson, and I would play him ahead of Hougaard at wing, and earmark Rhule for the future, and play Hougaard at 9 ahead of Pienaar. Give Goosen and Jantjies full control of all kicking duties and if Lambie is at 15 no problem with place kicking. Pienaar back to bench to be the fully fledged utility man to cover all occasions.
1 Oct 2012, 21:50 pm
@Horings-81:
I see you blame the cameras?!
I must remind you that the cameras merely capture what is of interest to the viewers. It is incorrect to say that the cameras started it. Meyer gave the instruction for them to warm up; there is awareness out there that Meyer is reluctant to give these players a fair chance…
So I think the commentators started talking about it which is then reinforced by visuals of the players but I felt there was actually excitement as they anticipated especially also because the kicking was poor on the day. So there is nothing malicious in expecting them to get say 15 min or so…
1 Oct 2012, 21:55 pm
@victoriabok-89: I ALWAYS said AC was an idiot for playing JdV at 12 and not JdJ.. ALL Stormers best games where wen JdJ was at inside center either partnering Fourie or someone other.. JdJ should be at 12 and JdV or JF at 13
De Jongh has been poorly mentored and coached by both AC and PdV and now Meyer.. suddenly Taute goes ahead of him when De Jongh is a far more incisive running center and very solid on defense also.
If JdV must captain the side whether at Stormers or Boks JdJ should be at 12 and JdV at 13 or 14.
1 Oct 2012, 21:57 pm
@Sheriff-94: I do not want to discuss this issue as it is not an issue. As I said Meyer do not have time to think how his decisions will be seen by some individuals. Building a new team in the most competitive competition in world rugby is taking enough of his time and maybe PdV should have thought about bringing new players in and building the team than keeping district 6 happy.
1 Oct 2012, 22:00 pm
@stormersboy-82: @Horings-83:
One player he picks on form (his words) in Mapoe – and the other he picks because he was part of the squad in some or other capacity in June in Botha?
So what’s the plan? Form or long people being part of his thinking or earlier squads?
If it is form, then what about Daniel who can cover all three positions? Deysel?
If it is squads and culture, where is JJ?
1 Oct 2012, 22:01 pm
@Horings-91:
I would have brought in Raymond Rhule as well, he’s as destructive as Habana when he was that age
I think he’s bringing in the youngsters to familiarize them with the Bok setup like the twelfth man in cricket, they’ll get gametime in the EOYT
We need to use the youngsters, I don’t think we’ll have flankers of 26-30 years old in the next couple of years as the rigours of the hard S15 would shorten the playing careers
In the next three years you’ll see they’ll use the squad concept a lot more and the replacement would all be youngters
1 Oct 2012, 22:04 pm
@PissAnt-97:
**** that post makes no sense, I need some sleep, been awake for way too many hours in the last 3 days.
1 Oct 2012, 22:06 pm
@Horings-96:
‘Keeping district 6 happy’
That just about says it all about your outdated mentality.
I expect Meyer to unearth Afrikaner talent in particular. So Kosie playing in Upington Hoërskool – dont worry Oom Heyneke will send his scouts to find you guys
I would suggest that we remain humble after beating an imploding Wallabies team; I question whether Deans is a cultural fit to coach the Wallabies
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