Desperate for a hot harvest
15 Oct 2012
RYAN VREDE writes that the injection of Springboks into the Currie Cup elevated the standard so significantly that what happened before them may as well have been a different competition.
It confirmed to me that South Africa’s depth in talent is not as vast as some suggest or would like to believe it is, and that there is a notable gap in quality between the very best the country has and the next tier of players.
We need to move past the idea that there is exceptional talent in abundance. The standard of the competition showed there isn’t. There was a very small pool of gifted players capable of being competent Super Rugby participants. The remainder were Vodacom Cup standard, while a significant number of players on show at the bigger unions in the Currie Cup should have been on club duty.
Certainly the quality of New Zealand’s domestic cup was better, and this for a country that boasts a fraction of South Africa’s player numbers (there are a 109 878 registered senior male players in South Africa compared to New Zealand’s 27 347). Having watched both competitions, I have to conclude that the standard of New Zealand’s fringe players is higher, although it would be difficult to support that assertion outside of this empirical evidence.
I can’t think of any young player who seriously advanced his cause for Springbok selection on the strength of his Currie Cup performances. This wasn’t always the case. As recently as 2005 and 2006 there was a burst of exceptional young bucks, among them Frans Steyn, JP Pietersen, Brad Barritt, Ruan Pienaar and Waylon Murray and Pierre Spies. How desperately the country needs another harvest like that.
South Africa’s strong school system will continue to service the unions with ordinary, good, very good and potential internationals, but a bigger influx of the latter two categories is essential over the next couple of years to raise the Currie Cup’s standard. A strong premier domestic cup is absolutely vital for the health of Springbok rugby.
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87 Comments
15 Oct 2012, 08:10 am
I may ruffle a few feathers, but the standard of rugby is better in NZ because we play a better style of game suited to today’s rules and playing conditions.
15 Oct 2012, 08:16 am
25 Years ago the average 1st class rugby field in NZ mid season was a bog.
Today, ITM Cup teams battle it out on surfaces that would have been envied by a lot of test venues around the world.
With the improved surfaces, less close contact grind has been required to free the ball. resulting in a higher tempo game.
Aus and NZ have certainly taken advantage of that.
15 Oct 2012, 08:33 am
Vrede, you are again full of k@k.
The ITM Cup is not nearly of such a high quality that you suggest.
It’s at times shocking to say the least. Makes Declan O’Donnell look like he belongs.
Canterbury (especially) & Wellington are kicking everyones backsides with teams missing large amounts of All Blacks. Canterbury has been putting HUGE numbers up against everybody. Yet they had a decent CC at best and are fielding second-stringers.
Don’t come at me with the ‘they’re better’ please.
15 Oct 2012, 08:36 am
its got nothing to do with your game being better and everything to do with your game being dirty. some of the tmo/ref decisions in this seasons super comp were larfable at best and lets not even go there wrt how your teams qualified for the playoffs and ran out eventual winners.
well, i’ll go there a little in regard to the intentional head high stiff arm tackles and other off the ball stuff. also, that decision by the citing commissioner regarding the fist fight in the crusader – chiefs as not warranting any action was just classy nz.
15 Oct 2012, 08:36 am
@hendrikp-3:
Decent SR campaign I mean.
15 Oct 2012, 08:46 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-4:
“your teams qualified for the playoffs and ran out eventual winners.”
There is a saying that even a ****** randomly typing away on a keyboard may just manage to scramble together enough keystrokes to warrant further interest.
Not saying you are a ******, but you did manage to scramble a few key strokes together than I could identify as being rational.
15 Oct 2012, 08:53 am
I’m not sure that this is accurate.
Take WP for example. We have several players that are very young already playing in the senior squad, players like Kitshoff, Etsebeth, Malherbe and Kolisi. In addition we had players like Carr who is injured and a player like Groom coming through the ranks nicely. Brache has had a good season at CC level and is one to watch for next season (not that young at 24 though). yes, some of them came through last year and are already seasoned top level players but they are still very young and the Kitshoffs and Etsebeths of the world just don’t come around all the time.
Some years are better than others, look at Goosen, very young and a Springbok. You don’t just replace him in a heartbeat with another young flyhalf of same caliber
All in all our young stocks look very good. Think of the following players:
Pollard (Still at school)
Goosen (20)
Malherbe (21)
Kitshoff (20)
Jordaan (20)
Pieter Stef Du Toit (20)
Ntubeni (21)
Kolisi (21)
Etsebeth (20)
Taute (21)
Elton (22)
Lambie (21)
Elstadt (22)
De Jong (Still only 24)
Some of these guys are regular Springboks already. Amazing!
15 Oct 2012, 08:53 am
I can’t argue with some comments made in this article.
But the jump in logic to say there is a lack of quality up-and-comers is skewed.
Vrede mentions a group of talented youngsters from a few years back.
These days, the youngsters are getting more and more opportunities at top level quite a bit faster – especially with so many veteran Boks retiring or moving on recently.
Think Etzebeth, Kolisi, Coetzee, Goosen, Taute and add Kitshoff, Ntubeni, Elstadt, Steph Du Toit, Van Zyl, Serfontein just to name a few.
Don’t forget the SA u21′s just won a world cup.
I stand to be corrected, but the team of u21′s who had Bismark, Chilli, Steenkamp, Daniel, Spies made the final but lost?
15 Oct 2012, 08:55 am
@stormersboy-7:
You read my mind.
15 Oct 2012, 08:55 am
@Brads-6:
ja, you keep thinking that boet.
its in your nature to lie to yourself…. emporers clothes and all…
15 Oct 2012, 08:57 am
The real threat is quality youngsters like CJ Stander heading overseas with an eye to play for another nation.
That will decrease the level of talent in the SA game.
15 Oct 2012, 09:00 am
Coenie Oosthuizen, Kitshoff, Mbonambi, Visagie, Ntubeni, Malherbe, Elstadt, Willemse, Steph Du Toit, Liebenberg, Coetzee, Kolisi, Carr, Botha, Van Zyl, Groom, Goosen, Pollard, Lambie, Jantjies, Serfontein, Small-Smith, Ruhle, Taute
All youngsters – looks pretty healthy to me!
If the Boks have a problem, it’s in their lack of experienced depth.
Come on Gurthro Steenkamp, Bakkies, Pakslae, Du Preez, Jacques Fourie – let’s make a plan!
15 Oct 2012, 09:07 am
In my opinion the 5 second trial rule has a lot to do with the free flowing type of rugby we’re seeing in the ITM Cup. I hope it will be implemented elsewhere.
15 Oct 2012, 09:10 am
@puff-9: LOL I see so. And to think that Lambie is still only 21. At top level he’s a seasoned professional already.
So ja, no cause for concern IMO.
15 Oct 2012, 09:12 am
Someone said recently that the difference between the Boks vs All Blacks of 40 years ago vs today is that the All Black teams of 40 years ago didn’t include any Maoris or Islanders.
In other words, if the All Blacks just had their players of European descent, we’d still be beating them more often than not today.
But the genetic advantage that Polynesian players add to their talent pool has boosted them to a new level in the last 20 years or so.
Hence their ability to produce teams of great talent despite having a relatively small player pool to choose from. The pool has a higher statistical prevalence of humans that are genetically more suited to rugby.
15 Oct 2012, 09:18 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-10:
Emperor’s clothes?
Do you mean those imaginary cups and trophies.
Seriously, I am not hinting or what ever at the notion SA has rubbish players.
However, you have a seriously dated game plan. But SA has not “matured” as the rest of the rugby world has.
Sticking to the tried and true is the reason why the likes of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England have beaten you up in the last decade. From that group, only England has managed a win against the AB’s in the last near on 60 years.
***** bells, head to head SA are the most serious regular challenge to NZ, but getting up and winning one off matches is not enough, because the regularity of those wins is decreasing..
15 Oct 2012, 09:19 am
@stormersboy-14: BOet at the Sharks i just checked, 18 out of 30 are 24 and younger, thats without checking on 2 or 3 players in the under 21′s that might have gotten a few min game time ,
These are just the contracted players for the main squad
15 Oct 2012, 09:24 am
@Tacitus-15:
Are you suggesting they backwash their gene pool?
15 Oct 2012, 09:25 am
@sharks_lover-17:
That’s not a good thing, Sharks Lover.
I think the main problem in SA rugby, is that we don’t have enough quality veterans over the age of 28 left anymore. They all bugger off overseas.
So what you end up with is only the elite Springboks – who almost never play in the Currie Cup – and once you take them out, you are left either with youngsters, or the veterans who could never quite make it to the top, but who are happy to earn a bit of money in the Currie Cup.
In the past, you’d have an entire generation of top class players between the age of 28-34, forming the backbone of your domestic teams, even while the elite Boks are away.
This is no longer the case. Hence our teams are development teams, rather than the best our domestic rugby has to offer.
All part of Mark Keohane’s utopia though, with his calls to encourage players to bugger off overseas as much as possible.
15 Oct 2012, 09:25 am
@Tacitus-15: “higher statistical prevalence of humans…..” you just dove right in lol.
I was once watching a super Rugby game with an ex Bok player and we are watching a NZ game where one of those Islanders had just smashed someone in a tackle and i asked him which Island he came from, i.e. Tonga, Fiji, Samoa etc.
He just looked at me and said: “the island of big motherf*ckers”…
True story.
15 Oct 2012, 09:25 am
6 of the 30 are between 27 and 25
then there are 6 that are 28 and older
This is just the CC squad and does not include the likes of Bissy, FRansie JPP LAmbie JAnnie, Kanko
Mvovo Doc Beast
15 Oct 2012, 09:26 am
Agreed with Ryan. The NPC/ITM cup is a vastly more attractive spectacle than the Currie Cup. NZ has way more skillful players with a natural feel for the game. Even some of the NH’s competitions are more attractive to watch imo. We might have tons of players and lots of big chunky ones too who are very physical, but our style is becoming increasingly old fashioned and primitive even at a supposedly exhibition level.
Very disillusioned with SA rugby at the moment starting with SARU.
15 Oct 2012, 09:26 am
@gunther-18:
No, I’m saying that their talent pool has dramatically improved, while ours is shrinking.
I’m acknowledging that Polynesians are probably the most naturally gifted rugby players on the planet. Hence the increasing difficulty in holding our own against the All Blacks, who we previously dominated.
15 Oct 2012, 09:26 am
@ratel-13: Pity some of our refs cannot count to 5.
15 Oct 2012, 09:31 am
Let us face it, some of our players that are playing test rugby should still be playing currie cup rugby for a season or two. Etzebeth has been a star, but how many currie cup games has he started in his career? He is the best we have and I am not saying he should be dropped for Flip, but if Saru planned it better they would have insured that we did not lose the calibre of Bakkies, Rossouw, Victor Matfield, Johann Muller all within a year or two.
15 Oct 2012, 09:33 am
@stormersboy-20:
thats sounds like tank.
tall tank not fat tank.
15 Oct 2012, 09:37 am
@sharks_lover-21: Add to that list Alberts(28) MArcel coetzee(21) Bissy(28), FRansie(25) JPP(26) LAmbie(21), Kanko(27) Mvovo(26) Doc(30) Beast(27)
Checcking through the lists now i forgot contracted also are Heimer Williams center(20) and Ghouws Prinsloo(22)
15 Oct 2012, 09:38 am
so very few toppies left at the Sharks when it comes to players
15 Oct 2012, 09:38 am
Just imagine if Heyneke was appointed before the World Cup. How many of our players would have decided to stay. Guthro Steenkamp and Fourie du Preez for instance. And here is another idea. With these loan contracts starting to appear. Why cant Saru contract Fourie du Preez for example and loan him out to the Bulls from May to shorten his season and lenghten his career. You can do it with a small number of players each year. Juan Smith will be a great asset if we ensure that he is fit for 10 tests each year and if he only plays a maximum of 20 games each year. He can then play for the next 2-4 years.
15 Oct 2012, 09:43 am
@Tacitus-23:
should we import some?
15 Oct 2012, 09:45 am
@Horings-25: Etzebeth started his first Currie Cup match the past Saturday !
15 Oct 2012, 09:46 am
@gunther-30:
The best ones won’t come, so what’s the point.
The best we can do is to try and do better with the talent that we do have, which remains considerable.
15 Oct 2012, 09:48 am
@sharks_lover-28:
I remember the days, not so long ago, when the Sharks took the field in wheelchairs and Zimmer frames.
15 Oct 2012, 09:55 am
@Tacitus-15: we didnt include any Maoris because you guys wouldnt let them tour?
honorary whites I think the term was…
15 Oct 2012, 09:57 am
@David-33:
Yeah David, and now out of the top 40 players 27 are 25 or younger.
This bodes well for the future of Sharks rugby
15 Oct 2012, 09:58 am
@Horings-29:
I am not sure I grasp your rationale, but I will give a stab.
It appears you want SARU to ring fence the proven stars of Bokke rugby in order to maintain their time in the game, while at the same time gift them to privileged teams but only use them as prescribed by the national interest.
Well, we had that debate already.
It is called central contracts, and as as whole, SA hates the idea.
15 Oct 2012, 09:59 am
only 3 are over 30
Odwa31, Doc is now 30 and botes who is 32
15 Oct 2012, 10:02 am
@poppa69-34:
The reason is irrelevent. I don’t know what the history of racial discrimination in NZ is like, and I’m not really interested. Whether Maori’s could always play for the All Blacks or not, the point is simply that today the Kiwi teams we face are stronger due to the inclusion of the Polynesian players.
15 Oct 2012, 10:05 am
@gunther-26: Tall Tank indeed.
15 Oct 2012, 10:07 am
@Brads-36: No, the difference is central contracting as used in NZ is for all their super 15 players. I am talking about contracting maximum 5 players. These 5 players should be the core of the Springboks for the next 4 years and it should apply to older players in the McCaw mould. They can even loan them out to overseas teams if the gap in the contract values are too big demestically vs internationally. It is a way to get players good enough to play for the Boks back to SA. My 5 players it will apply to will be Fourie du Preez, Francois Louw, Juan Smith, Jaque Fourie and Guthro Steenkamp.
15 Oct 2012, 10:10 am
@poppa69-34:
really?
is billy bush maori?
i seem to recall him touring back in the 70′s
bryan williams too – samoan i think.
both played for nz.
are you sure you’re not telling little porkies?
or are these urban legends in nz – like the gert bezuidenhout “i live here” stuff?
15 Oct 2012, 10:12 am
@Horings-40: If these 5 players are fit to play 80% of our tests in the next 4 years then we will be as good as the All Blacks. If they however play all their club games (Whether it is for SA or Overseas teams) then they will not be able to play for more than 2 more years and they will get injured regularly.
15 Oct 2012, 10:16 am
@charo-41: yep Charo, imaginary indeed..
In May 1960 the All Blacks were due to leave for a tour of South Africa. They had finally won a series for the first time in 1956 and this was a much anticipated rematch between the two powerhouses of world rugby. However the 1960 tour is best remembered for the fact that no players of M?ori descent were selected. The decision to comply with South Africa’s strict segregationist apartheid policies by not selecting M?ori players caused outrage. Some of the biggest public protests in New Zealand’s history failed to convince the Labour government to intervene. Prime Minister Walter Nash supported the rugby union, arguing that to include M?ori ‘would be an act of the greatest folly and cruelty to the Maori race’.
The Citizens’ All Black Tour Association, of which Ng?i Tahu leader Frank Winter was a prominent member, campaigned to stop the tour, using the slogan ‘No Maoris – No Tour’. More than 150,000 New Zealanders signed a petition opposing the tour – this remains one of the largest petitions in our history. Others marched in the streets to voice their opposition. One unique form of protest came from the hugely popular Howard Morrison Quartet. Band member Gerry Merito transformed Lonnie Donegan’s ‘My old man’s a dustman’ into ‘My old man’s an All Black’ to make a point about the decision to tour without M?ori.
Despite these protests the tour went ahead.
When the All Blacks toured South Africa in 1970, M?ori players were able to travel as ‘honorary whites’, a situation that appalled Winter and others in New Zealand’s growing anti-apartheid movement.
The Springboks played a New Zealand M?ori XV at Napier on the first tour in 1921, winning narrowly, 9–8. One South African journalist reported his shock at witnessing white supporters actively supporting the M?ori XV. The two teams next met in 1956, when New Zealand M?ori were defeated 37–0, and again in 1965 when they were defeated 9–3. Napier was the venue in 1981 for a hard-fought 12-all draw.
On the 1976 tour to South Africa the All Blacks played a South African Coloureds team in Cape Town, winning 25–3.
15 Oct 2012, 10:18 am
Central Contracting will never work because of the Provinces. We all agree on that, but surely the Provinces will agree to get a player for two months in super rugby if that players may play in the semis. All Bulls fans will take Fourie du Preez, if only available for 2 months. All Cheetah fans will take Smith. All Stormers supporters will take Louw. Hell, the Kings will take anyone.
15 Oct 2012, 10:20 am
Charo… yep, imaginary, what a laff..
Excluding M?ori players from All Black tours to South Africa was a kindly act, claimed some supporters of apartheid sport. The South African newspaper Die Burger insisted that, ‘The decision to invite only white All Blacks is, in fact, in the interests of the Maoris themselves, for we cannot imagine that they would find the tour of [South Africa] enjoyable. Everywhere, and especially socially, incidents would threaten, and the Maoris would find how radically different things were here compared with New Zealand.’2
15 Oct 2012, 10:24 am
@Tacitus-38: @poppa69-34:
You are correct, it would be ignorant of me or anyone to deny the fact.
Should we apologize for the fact we are an easy target for Pacific Island immigrants looking for a better life.
Reality is the actual immigrants were and are to this day the parents of the players who shine on the rugby field.
That said, reality also says that for every professional Poly rugby player. there will be 100′s of beneficiaries chewing into MY tax contribution.
So if we are expected and do support these folk as equal citizens, surely we should be able to claim them as part of our talent pool..
15 Oct 2012, 10:25 am
@poppa69-43:
wikipedia i assume?
like the bit about the saffa journalist being shocked.
obviously the entry needed some drama to be effective.
so…..the 1960 tour was affected?
isn’t generalization a ******?
15 Oct 2012, 10:26 am
@stormersboy-39:
not a small boy himself.
15 Oct 2012, 10:30 am
Poppa seems to forget that SA also did not select non-whites for the Boks.
In terms of team strength, this cancels out the fact that Maoris were not selected for the ABs.
15 Oct 2012, 10:41 am
@charo-47:
NZ society also evolved.
50 years ago the majority of Maori lived in rural communities. I lived in in that environment in the late 50′s and know the only sport in town was rugby, but the technical skill level of coaches was poor, and the demands of the Iwi extends well passed chasing dreams.
With the exception of a very small number of hugely talented players, NZ let alone the world never experienced the potential that existed amongst the Maoris in that era.
15 Oct 2012, 10:54 am
@willievz-49:
So which non white’s pre 1991 would you have had in the team to replace the incumbent white?
15 Oct 2012, 11:15 am
@Brads-50:
you sound as old as me mate
no doubt in nz you’ve had a more liberal govt than us.
but in hindsight, i’ve often tried to put myself in the shoes of the afrikaners at the time. a small minority trying to hold on to political power and their “culture”.
could not have been easy and most of the world didn’t understand this.
much like israel takes so much flack now.
15 Oct 2012, 11:34 am
@charo-52:
One of the attitudes that amuses me based on the comments from a lot of folk, is the notion that today’s values have been universal throughout history.
Far from it.
It’s a bit like tolerating smoking.
40 years ago if you were a non smoker you not only let people light up inside your home, you may even have provided them with cigarettes, but for damn sure you had plenty of ashtrays to keep them happy.
Today you wouldn’t let them enter your property with a lit cigarette.
Rugby was like that, so was society.
We evolved.
15 Oct 2012, 13:40 pm
@charo-47: wasnt just the 1960s tour Charo, as well you know.. you can try to hide the fact that your father and his fathers were racist, as you still are today..
NZ teams before the 70s were all affected by not being able to select Maori players to tour the republic, you can try to bury it by being obtuse and a denialist, but it is part of history mate..
how strange that a racist would want to bury any semblance of evidence of his heritage
15 Oct 2012, 13:52 pm
@poppa69-54:
such a load of bullshitt.
for maori’s not being selected for the nz team before 1970 look closer to home at the unofficial policies and practises of the day, as performed by your pakeha kiwi brothers.
15 Oct 2012, 13:53 pm
@Brads-46:
Good post.
I always lose it when a Kiwi refuses to admit that the Islands have improved NZL rugby. Hell, SA would so the same thing (anyone would), but I would be the first to admit the benfits.
15 Oct 2012, 13:55 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-55:
True.
Some Aussies and Kiwis always blast the old SA (and rightfully so).
But they forget that their own countries were just as racist, they just didn’t make it official.
15 Oct 2012, 14:08 pm
@londonshark-57:
yip
some of these mutton chops live in hollywood fantasy land fulltime.
15 Oct 2012, 16:28 pm
Thats your opinion Ryan, and you are entitled to it. But dont write as if it is gospel truth!
Many of the Currie Cup games were great to watch and some of the young talent on display was brilliant.
Please also remember that a lot of those “exceptional young bucks” were actually playing for the Boks (or injured)! Estebeth, Kolisi, Coenie etc.
15 Oct 2012, 16:29 pm
@Brads-53: Excellent comparison
15 Oct 2012, 16:42 pm
@poppa69-54:
sorry to disappoint you pops but my father was an english immigrant and a pacifist – thanks to ww2.
he arrived before apartheid and vehemently opposed it all his life.
like i said to you before, generalizations can be a biitch.
16 Oct 2012, 01:55 am
Willie Le Roux
Lionel Mapoe
Raymond Rhule
JP du Plessis
Arno Botha
CJ Stander
Anthony Volminck
Cobus Reinach
Monde Hadebe
Paul Jordaan
Sbura Sithole
Scara Ntubeni
Terror Mthembu
Rynhardt Elstadt
Goosen
Jantjies
Kolisi
PSDT
Etzebeth
Kitschoff
Coetzee
Taute
Lambie
Hougaard
F.Steyn
JP
De Jongh
Beast
Bismark
Vermuelen
Alberts
Brussow
Flo
Kankowski
Rallapelle
Mvovo
Serfontein
16 Oct 2012, 02:03 am
Willie Le Roux
Lionel Mapoe
Raymond Rhule
JP du Plessis
Arno Botha
CJ Stander
Anthony Volminck
Cobus Reinach
Monde Hadebe
Paul Jordaan
Sbura Sithole
Scara Ntubeni
Terror Mthembu
Rynhardt Elstadt
Nizaam Carr
Goosen
Jantjies
Kolisi
PSDT
Etzebeth
Kitschoff
Coetzee
Taute
Lambie
Hougaard
F.Steyn
JP
De Jongh
Beast
Bismark
Vermuelen
Alberts
Brussow
Flo
Kankowski
Rallapelle
Mvovo
Serfontein
Wall-Smith
Mbovane
Pollard
Adendorff
There’s plenty
It’s the mindset and coaching/rugby philosophy in SA that’s the problem.can we get the best out of such a talented pool especially with skillsets available
Won’t happen though
16 Oct 2012, 03:11 am
@Tacitus-15: You are such a ****…you wouldnt know anything about NZ rugby. 40-50years ago (so this is pre-1970 All Black Tour to SA) SA would not allow NZ to send any player of colour – that means Maori. So it was your rules that prevented that, it had nothing to do with NZ not allowing Maori to play – Maori, Pacific Islander were always allowed to play rugby in NZ. What a sham you are, you have no integrity, you have no intelligence, NZ didnt have WHITES only rules you dumbass…get your facts straight and know what you are talking about before you spout off your Jappie mouth…what a joke, what a loser, go fetch a bone my man…
16 Oct 2012, 03:18 am
You know I would just like it if Saffas would just get passed their one-eyed view and give credit to a little South Pacific country (NZ) for having a good rugby team, we always will have – it is part of the DNA of nearly every young boy who plays in bare feet and learns about this wonderful game. Saffas on the other hand, well there was the privelege of whites only playing the game and look at how that has impacted on your game – nothing has changed, the black man of africa is trying his best to raise the profile of the game over there but no it is still a whitemans game. Whilst here in good ole NZ we have melded the cultural strengths of different ethnicities and VOILA we have the AB’s – the winningiest team on the planet, the TEAM everyone wants so desperately to beat, the most admired, followed and read about team in the world of rugby….one day SA rugby may rise to that level and when it does, NZ will have move a few more light years ahead and so you will always be in catch up mode….HAIL the MIGHTY AB’s team of the game of rugby, beaters of Boks, Wallabies, Frogs, Poms et al….hail them people, for they are the best.
16 Oct 2012, 04:58 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-55:
So tell us then. You seem to know alot about NZ and our policies….so you think
The problem i see and we are talking rugby here is that NZRU listened to the racist old SA and let them be pushed around just so they can play rugby. Maoris and pacific islanders missed out.
Therefore NZRU and government are just as much to blame to a point. Reasons why the govenrment apologised to maori and pacific islanders a few years ago.
@londonshark-57:
Just as racist?
We did have issues but not quite to the extent SA had and lets say Ozzie, those guys got away with alot.
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-58:
Deny away Bakkies. Nothing that went on in those years was hollywood or false.
It was terrible what happened, yet you find the time to blame NZ lol….typical.
16 Oct 2012, 05:36 am
@Hurricane-66:
Hurri, just as a matter of interest, and given what Brads said in #50, how many players missed out?
16 Oct 2012, 05:51 am
@Slartibartfast-67:
Mate i would need to dive deeper to find who missed out.
Look i believe over those years not a huge amount but there were some key Maori players that did miss.
It would be interesting to find the number, and its a hard call to say if those players were picked that they would have changed the outcome of the match.
I will have a hunt.
16 Oct 2012, 05:55 am
@Slartibartfast-67:
Oh and by the way, i am not throwing all the blame at SA at all.
We had our own little issues internally, as stated we did accept the no Maori tours, we also need to take blame.
16 Oct 2012, 06:07 am
@Hurricane-68: @Hurricane-69:
Thanks Hurri, would be interesting but don’t worry to much if you can’t find anything.
Mr Returning Serve, Master of Generalisation loves to tar us all with the same brush but reality is that a large % of us were either still but a twinkle in our dad’s eye or plain oblivious to what happened at the time. For vark steaks man, we only got TV in SA in 1974 or was it 1976 and then the biggest show was Haas Das se Nuuskas that had little to say about it all…
16 Oct 2012, 07:56 am
@Hurricane-66:
oh hurri, you are so naive it actually pains me a little to point out a different view to your precious nz than the ones you guys are sold on.
Who said: “The white populace which holds itself in such high esteem, the hypocrites who make the same old polite, meaningless sounds about Maoris but who wouldn’t lower themselves to mix with the Maori on a Maori footing… The circumstances of many Maori are terrifying, but where is the concern for these people? And we spew out the platitudes about race relations, New Zealand’s paradise of racial equality”?
Was it:
A. Tariana Turia
B. Ranginui Walker
C. Hone Harawira
D. Tame Iti
E. Colin Meads
The answer is E. New Zealand rugby’s most iconic figure said that – and much more in the same vein – in Colin Meads: All Black (1974), which sold by the pallet-load and created a template for the ghostwritten sporting autobiographies that have poured forth ever since.
The cause of Meads’s ire was the Labour Government’s decision to “postpone” – in effect cancel – the 1973 Springbok tour of this country. His target was the white middle-class who, as he saw it, were terribly exercised about the suffering of South Africa’s black and coloured communities under apartheid but unaware of or indifferent to the grim everyday reality of many of their own indigenous people.
The paradox of rugby is that although it can’t seem to shake the suspicion that it harbours racist attitudes – witness the abuse directed at beleaguered Blues coach Pat Lam, a Samoan New Zealander – it has achieved a level of harmonious, productive integration that most of our institutions and sectors can only aspire to. The “browning” of rugby over the past 20 years has generated three controversies.
http://www.listener.co.nz/current-affairs/sport/rugby-and-ethnicity/
16 Oct 2012, 08:06 am
However unlikely that prospect, it
wouldn’t be contentious to suggest the number of Pacific players today as being
a far cry from 1970 when Bryan Williams was the sole All Black of Pacific
descent.
Indeed, rugby has become the tale of just how far Pacific people have
come. Supposedly, we see in rugby evidence of how, in Immigration Minister
David Cunliffe’s words, “Pasifika New Zealanders are well-established members
of our community—growing in numbers and going from strength to strength.”
16 Oct 2012, 08:07 am
http://drum.lib.umd.edu/bitstream/1903/8202/1/umi-umd-5398.pdf
16 Oct 2012, 08:23 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-71:
Get real, Pat Lam was out of his depth but didn’t deserve the abuse from some cowardly racist who attacked him anonymously.
There was a general feeling of anti Pat Lam as coach in the Blues community, but not a ground swell of anti Pat Lam because he was Samoan.
16 Oct 2012, 08:28 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-72:
The real reason why Bryan Williams was the first person of Samoan heritage to play for the AB’s was because there were so few of them in NZ until the mid sixties.
16 Oct 2012, 08:44 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-71:
Naive?
At least i dont takeone clipping that someone said and use that to prove apoint…..from one person lol…pathetic.
What pains me is the fact you go out find one little clipping of what someone said and thats it.
What are you trying to prove here?
Point is and known that Maoris and Pacific Islanders were not allowed in your country….fact. This is what the discussion somehow came about.
Not once have you said anything about what SA did but blamed Kiwis. Really sick of your dumb posts that only ever point to one country as fault.
Soutgh Africa has changed…..maybe you should
16 Oct 2012, 08:51 am
@Brads-74:
Exactly, he was not great a coach at all. Strange that it happens in Auckland, close to the North Shore
@Brads-75:
I believe Muldoon opened the borders upand allowed Pacific Islanders easy access into NZ.
What Bakkies is slowly trying coming around to is that he believes ABs are stronger cos of our Pacific Islanders/Kiwis in the team now. What they seem to forget is that also the Island teams have got stronger cos of NZ. Most the Samoan team and tongan team plays in NZ.
There were more Kiwis playing in the RWC than any nation.
16 Oct 2012, 08:56 am
@Hurricane-77:
Don’t you worry about the Blues in 2013.
Nothing a couple of Knights worth of planning can’t sort out.
16 Oct 2012, 09:06 am
@Hurricane-77:
You are correct about the heritage back flow for the islands.
16 Oct 2012, 09:19 am
@Brads-78:
hehehe
lucky buggers
16 Oct 2012, 10:40 am
@Hurricane-66:
True true.
Aus were actually the bloody worst at their peak. They used to hunt aborigines.
16 Oct 2012, 11:22 am
@Brads-74:
argue the point, brads.
this is about racism in nz rugby prior to the 1970′s and the extent to which it affected the number of non whites who were allowed into the ab squad.
pops goes out of his way to blame sa for their being so few on the spurious grounds that we prevented the nzru from selecting any but that only applied to any nz team touring in sa and its got nothing to do with the fact that non whites were only picked in a few token numbers and instances of exceptional skill by the white powers of nz rugby.
@Brads-75:
that is a lame answer if ever i heard one.
please refer above.
@Hurricane-76:
no, please refer above.
pops made a lame claim for their not being enough non whites in ab teams pre 1970 and i assert this had more to do with white nz’ers attitudes than anything to do with us.
keep believing your fairytale if you so prefer, boet.
16 Oct 2012, 12:12 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-82:
They didnt pick Maoris cos they could not play them in SA anyways.
Obviously NZRU decided playing SA was more important.
What part of this do you not understand?
Do you think its all NZs fault?
The Springboks, South Africa’s national rugby team, first toured New Zealand in 1921. They played one close-fought match against a team of ‘New Zealand Natives’ (M?ori) and a South African journalist reported that the Springboks were ‘frankly disgusted’ at playing against ‘a band of coloured men’.1 On their next tour in 1937, the Springboks refused to play an all-M?ori team, although several M?ori were included in the All Blacks. Te Arawa tribe called for a sporting and cultural boycott of South Africa, and most M?ori supported them. Some protested with banners announcing ‘Cash before Conscience’ – tours were lucrative.
As you can see the Maori did not want to play until NZRU manned up to the racist country that SA was….
Now it seems once again you have blamed NZ?
I understand and have said it was our fault for listening to an ugly nation at the time called South Africa but we did. But you seem content that the non selection of Maoris had nothing to do with you.
Point is Maoris didnt want to play until SA changed…understand
16 Oct 2012, 12:55 pm
@Hurricane-83:
no hurri, there was also racism in rugby and all walks of life towards the maori’s/pi’s by your white pakeha brothers. certainly not as bad as sa but it was there.
16 Oct 2012, 13:10 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-84:
I do not deny that, us Maoris did experience racism in NZ.
Whoever says otherwise,it is themthat lives in a Fairytale.
But you on the other hand seems to think it was NZ doing.
SA had a huge influence on our sad and weak Government at the time.
And i said that earlier we are to blame as well.
So understand, SA had a huge part in the non selection of Maoris.
16 Oct 2012, 16:00 pm
@Hurricane-85:
hurri i can see you are giving ground and making an effort to meet me somewhere along the way, thanks.
are you saying that before 1970 sa had the power to influence nz’s internal behaviour? sjoe! as forceful, uncompromisng as the sa gov may have been at the time and however much a slick foreign affairs routine we may have had i really dont think we were influential enough to sway nz’ers to adopt any racist attitudes or policies within their own country.
we may have at best (worst) just the worst possible example as a sporting competitor to have sporting contacts with but all this would have done is give the already racist and prejudiced white nz’ers the secret affirmation they may have needed to behave in the ways they clearly were.
a lot has changed in nz since but so too in sa.
16 Oct 2012, 16:02 pm
busy day for me
could not answer you any quicker
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