Desperate for a hot harvest
15 Oct 2012
RYAN VREDE writes that the injection of Springboks into the Currie Cup elevated the standard so significantly that what happened before them may as well have been a different competition.
It confirmed to me that South Africa’s depth in talent is not as vast as some suggest or would like to believe it is, and that there is a notable gap in quality between the very best the country has and the next tier of players.
We need to move past the idea that there is exceptional talent in abundance. The standard of the competition showed there isn’t. There was a very small pool of gifted players capable of being competent Super Rugby participants. The remainder were Vodacom Cup standard, while a significant number of players on show at the bigger unions in the Currie Cup should have been on club duty.
Certainly the quality of New Zealand’s domestic cup was better, and this for a country that boasts a fraction of South Africa’s player numbers (there are a 109 878 registered senior male players in South Africa compared to New Zealand’s 27 347). Having watched both competitions, I have to conclude that the standard of New Zealand’s fringe players is higher, although it would be difficult to support that assertion outside of this empirical evidence.
I can’t think of any young player who seriously advanced his cause for Springbok selection on the strength of his Currie Cup performances. This wasn’t always the case. As recently as 2005 and 2006 there was a burst of exceptional young bucks, among them Frans Steyn, JP Pietersen, Brad Barritt, Ruan Pienaar and Waylon Murray and Pierre Spies. How desperately the country needs another harvest like that.
South Africa’s strong school system will continue to service the unions with ordinary, good, very good and potential internationals, but a bigger influx of the latter two categories is essential over the next couple of years to raise the Currie Cup’s standard. A strong premier domestic cup is absolutely vital for the health of Springbok rugby.
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87 Comments
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15 Oct 2012, 08:10 am
I may ruffle a few feathers, but the standard of rugby is better in NZ because we play a better style of game suited to today’s rules and playing conditions.
15 Oct 2012, 08:16 am
25 Years ago the average 1st class rugby field in NZ mid season was a bog.
Today, ITM Cup teams battle it out on surfaces that would have been envied by a lot of test venues around the world.
With the improved surfaces, less close contact grind has been required to free the ball. resulting in a higher tempo game.
Aus and NZ have certainly taken advantage of that.
15 Oct 2012, 08:33 am
Vrede, you are again full of k@k.
The ITM Cup is not nearly of such a high quality that you suggest.
It’s at times shocking to say the least. Makes Declan O’Donnell look like he belongs.
Canterbury (especially) & Wellington are kicking everyones backsides with teams missing large amounts of All Blacks. Canterbury has been putting HUGE numbers up against everybody. Yet they had a decent CC at best and are fielding second-stringers.
Don’t come at me with the ‘they’re better’ please.
15 Oct 2012, 08:36 am
its got nothing to do with your game being better and everything to do with your game being dirty. some of the tmo/ref decisions in this seasons super comp were larfable at best and lets not even go there wrt how your teams qualified for the playoffs and ran out eventual winners.
well, i’ll go there a little in regard to the intentional head high stiff arm tackles and other off the ball stuff. also, that decision by the citing commissioner regarding the fist fight in the crusader – chiefs as not warranting any action was just classy nz.
15 Oct 2012, 08:36 am
@hendrikp-3:
Decent SR campaign I mean.
15 Oct 2012, 08:46 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-4:
“your teams qualified for the playoffs and ran out eventual winners.”
There is a saying that even a ****** randomly typing away on a keyboard may just manage to scramble together enough keystrokes to warrant further interest.
Not saying you are a ******, but you did manage to scramble a few key strokes together than I could identify as being rational.
15 Oct 2012, 08:53 am
I’m not sure that this is accurate.
Take WP for example. We have several players that are very young already playing in the senior squad, players like Kitshoff, Etsebeth, Malherbe and Kolisi. In addition we had players like Carr who is injured and a player like Groom coming through the ranks nicely. Brache has had a good season at CC level and is one to watch for next season (not that young at 24 though). yes, some of them came through last year and are already seasoned top level players but they are still very young and the Kitshoffs and Etsebeths of the world just don’t come around all the time.
Some years are better than others, look at Goosen, very young and a Springbok. You don’t just replace him in a heartbeat with another young flyhalf of same caliber
All in all our young stocks look very good. Think of the following players:
Pollard (Still at school)
Goosen (20)
Malherbe (21)
Kitshoff (20)
Jordaan (20)
Pieter Stef Du Toit (20)
Ntubeni (21)
Kolisi (21)
Etsebeth (20)
Taute (21)
Elton (22)
Lambie (21)
Elstadt (22)
De Jong (Still only 24)
Some of these guys are regular Springboks already. Amazing!
15 Oct 2012, 08:53 am
I can’t argue with some comments made in this article.
But the jump in logic to say there is a lack of quality up-and-comers is skewed.
Vrede mentions a group of talented youngsters from a few years back.
These days, the youngsters are getting more and more opportunities at top level quite a bit faster – especially with so many veteran Boks retiring or moving on recently.
Think Etzebeth, Kolisi, Coetzee, Goosen, Taute and add Kitshoff, Ntubeni, Elstadt, Steph Du Toit, Van Zyl, Serfontein just to name a few.
Don’t forget the SA u21′s just won a world cup.
I stand to be corrected, but the team of u21′s who had Bismark, Chilli, Steenkamp, Daniel, Spies made the final but lost?
15 Oct 2012, 08:55 am
@stormersboy-7:
You read my mind.
15 Oct 2012, 08:55 am
@Brads-6:
ja, you keep thinking that boet.
its in your nature to lie to yourself…. emporers clothes and all…
15 Oct 2012, 08:57 am
The real threat is quality youngsters like CJ Stander heading overseas with an eye to play for another nation.
That will decrease the level of talent in the SA game.
15 Oct 2012, 09:00 am
Coenie Oosthuizen, Kitshoff, Mbonambi, Visagie, Ntubeni, Malherbe, Elstadt, Willemse, Steph Du Toit, Liebenberg, Coetzee, Kolisi, Carr, Botha, Van Zyl, Groom, Goosen, Pollard, Lambie, Jantjies, Serfontein, Small-Smith, Ruhle, Taute
All youngsters – looks pretty healthy to me!
If the Boks have a problem, it’s in their lack of experienced depth.
Come on Gurthro Steenkamp, Bakkies, Pakslae, Du Preez, Jacques Fourie – let’s make a plan!
15 Oct 2012, 09:07 am
In my opinion the 5 second trial rule has a lot to do with the free flowing type of rugby we’re seeing in the ITM Cup. I hope it will be implemented elsewhere.
15 Oct 2012, 09:10 am
@puff-9: LOL I see so. And to think that Lambie is still only 21. At top level he’s a seasoned professional already.
So ja, no cause for concern IMO.
15 Oct 2012, 09:12 am
Someone said recently that the difference between the Boks vs All Blacks of 40 years ago vs today is that the All Black teams of 40 years ago didn’t include any Maoris or Islanders.
In other words, if the All Blacks just had their players of European descent, we’d still be beating them more often than not today.
But the genetic advantage that Polynesian players add to their talent pool has boosted them to a new level in the last 20 years or so.
Hence their ability to produce teams of great talent despite having a relatively small player pool to choose from. The pool has a higher statistical prevalence of humans that are genetically more suited to rugby.
15 Oct 2012, 09:18 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-10:
Emperor’s clothes?
Do you mean those imaginary cups and trophies.
Seriously, I am not hinting or what ever at the notion SA has rubbish players.
However, you have a seriously dated game plan. But SA has not “matured” as the rest of the rugby world has.
Sticking to the tried and true is the reason why the likes of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England have beaten you up in the last decade. From that group, only England has managed a win against the AB’s in the last near on 60 years.
***** bells, head to head SA are the most serious regular challenge to NZ, but getting up and winning one off matches is not enough, because the regularity of those wins is decreasing..
15 Oct 2012, 09:19 am
@stormersboy-14: BOet at the Sharks i just checked, 18 out of 30 are 24 and younger, thats without checking on 2 or 3 players in the under 21′s that might have gotten a few min game time ,
These are just the contracted players for the main squad
15 Oct 2012, 09:24 am
@Tacitus-15:
Are you suggesting they backwash their gene pool?
15 Oct 2012, 09:25 am
@sharks_lover-17:
That’s not a good thing, Sharks Lover.
I think the main problem in SA rugby, is that we don’t have enough quality veterans over the age of 28 left anymore. They all bugger off overseas.
So what you end up with is only the elite Springboks – who almost never play in the Currie Cup – and once you take them out, you are left either with youngsters, or the veterans who could never quite make it to the top, but who are happy to earn a bit of money in the Currie Cup.
In the past, you’d have an entire generation of top class players between the age of 28-34, forming the backbone of your domestic teams, even while the elite Boks are away.
This is no longer the case. Hence our teams are development teams, rather than the best our domestic rugby has to offer.
All part of Mark Keohane’s utopia though, with his calls to encourage players to bugger off overseas as much as possible.
15 Oct 2012, 09:25 am
@Tacitus-15: “higher statistical prevalence of humans…..” you just dove right in lol.
I was once watching a super Rugby game with an ex Bok player and we are watching a NZ game where one of those Islanders had just smashed someone in a tackle and i asked him which Island he came from, i.e. Tonga, Fiji, Samoa etc.
He just looked at me and said: “the island of big motherf*ckers”…
True story.
15 Oct 2012, 09:25 am
6 of the 30 are between 27 and 25
then there are 6 that are 28 and older
This is just the CC squad and does not include the likes of Bissy, FRansie JPP LAmbie JAnnie, Kanko
Mvovo Doc Beast
15 Oct 2012, 09:26 am
Agreed with Ryan. The NPC/ITM cup is a vastly more attractive spectacle than the Currie Cup. NZ has way more skillful players with a natural feel for the game. Even some of the NH’s competitions are more attractive to watch imo. We might have tons of players and lots of big chunky ones too who are very physical, but our style is becoming increasingly old fashioned and primitive even at a supposedly exhibition level.
Very disillusioned with SA rugby at the moment starting with SARU.
15 Oct 2012, 09:26 am
@gunther-18:
No, I’m saying that their talent pool has dramatically improved, while ours is shrinking.
I’m acknowledging that Polynesians are probably the most naturally gifted rugby players on the planet. Hence the increasing difficulty in holding our own against the All Blacks, who we previously dominated.
15 Oct 2012, 09:26 am
@ratel-13: Pity some of our refs cannot count to 5.
15 Oct 2012, 09:31 am
Let us face it, some of our players that are playing test rugby should still be playing currie cup rugby for a season or two. Etzebeth has been a star, but how many currie cup games has he started in his career? He is the best we have and I am not saying he should be dropped for Flip, but if Saru planned it better they would have insured that we did not lose the calibre of Bakkies, Rossouw, Victor Matfield, Johann Muller all within a year or two.
15 Oct 2012, 09:33 am
@stormersboy-20:
thats sounds like tank.
tall tank not fat tank.
15 Oct 2012, 09:37 am
@sharks_lover-21: Add to that list Alberts(28) MArcel coetzee(21) Bissy(28), FRansie(25) JPP(26) LAmbie(21), Kanko(27) Mvovo(26) Doc(30) Beast(27)
Checcking through the lists now i forgot contracted also are Heimer Williams center(20) and Ghouws Prinsloo(22)
15 Oct 2012, 09:38 am
so very few toppies left at the Sharks when it comes to players
15 Oct 2012, 09:38 am
Just imagine if Heyneke was appointed before the World Cup. How many of our players would have decided to stay. Guthro Steenkamp and Fourie du Preez for instance. And here is another idea. With these loan contracts starting to appear. Why cant Saru contract Fourie du Preez for example and loan him out to the Bulls from May to shorten his season and lenghten his career. You can do it with a small number of players each year. Juan Smith will be a great asset if we ensure that he is fit for 10 tests each year and if he only plays a maximum of 20 games each year. He can then play for the next 2-4 years.
15 Oct 2012, 09:43 am
@Tacitus-23:
should we import some?
15 Oct 2012, 09:45 am
@Horings-25: Etzebeth started his first Currie Cup match the past Saturday !
15 Oct 2012, 09:46 am
@gunther-30:
The best ones won’t come, so what’s the point.
The best we can do is to try and do better with the talent that we do have, which remains considerable.
15 Oct 2012, 09:48 am
@sharks_lover-28:
I remember the days, not so long ago, when the Sharks took the field in wheelchairs and Zimmer frames.
15 Oct 2012, 09:55 am
@Tacitus-15: we didnt include any Maoris because you guys wouldnt let them tour?
honorary whites I think the term was…
15 Oct 2012, 09:57 am
@David-33:
Yeah David, and now out of the top 40 players 27 are 25 or younger.
This bodes well for the future of Sharks rugby
15 Oct 2012, 09:58 am
@Horings-29:
I am not sure I grasp your rationale, but I will give a stab.
It appears you want SARU to ring fence the proven stars of Bokke rugby in order to maintain their time in the game, while at the same time gift them to privileged teams but only use them as prescribed by the national interest.
Well, we had that debate already.
It is called central contracts, and as as whole, SA hates the idea.
15 Oct 2012, 09:59 am
only 3 are over 30
Odwa31, Doc is now 30 and botes who is 32
15 Oct 2012, 10:02 am
@poppa69-34:
The reason is irrelevent. I don’t know what the history of racial discrimination in NZ is like, and I’m not really interested. Whether Maori’s could always play for the All Blacks or not, the point is simply that today the Kiwi teams we face are stronger due to the inclusion of the Polynesian players.
15 Oct 2012, 10:05 am
@gunther-26: Tall Tank indeed.
15 Oct 2012, 10:07 am
@Brads-36: No, the difference is central contracting as used in NZ is for all their super 15 players. I am talking about contracting maximum 5 players. These 5 players should be the core of the Springboks for the next 4 years and it should apply to older players in the McCaw mould. They can even loan them out to overseas teams if the gap in the contract values are too big demestically vs internationally. It is a way to get players good enough to play for the Boks back to SA. My 5 players it will apply to will be Fourie du Preez, Francois Louw, Juan Smith, Jaque Fourie and Guthro Steenkamp.
15 Oct 2012, 10:10 am
@poppa69-34:
really?
is billy bush maori?
i seem to recall him touring back in the 70′s
bryan williams too – samoan i think.
both played for nz.
are you sure you’re not telling little porkies?
or are these urban legends in nz – like the gert bezuidenhout “i live here” stuff?
15 Oct 2012, 10:12 am
@Horings-40: If these 5 players are fit to play 80% of our tests in the next 4 years then we will be as good as the All Blacks. If they however play all their club games (Whether it is for SA or Overseas teams) then they will not be able to play for more than 2 more years and they will get injured regularly.
15 Oct 2012, 10:16 am
@charo-41: yep Charo, imaginary indeed..
In May 1960 the All Blacks were due to leave for a tour of South Africa. They had finally won a series for the first time in 1956 and this was a much anticipated rematch between the two powerhouses of world rugby. However the 1960 tour is best remembered for the fact that no players of M?ori descent were selected. The decision to comply with South Africa’s strict segregationist apartheid policies by not selecting M?ori players caused outrage. Some of the biggest public protests in New Zealand’s history failed to convince the Labour government to intervene. Prime Minister Walter Nash supported the rugby union, arguing that to include M?ori ‘would be an act of the greatest folly and cruelty to the Maori race’.
The Citizens’ All Black Tour Association, of which Ng?i Tahu leader Frank Winter was a prominent member, campaigned to stop the tour, using the slogan ‘No Maoris – No Tour’. More than 150,000 New Zealanders signed a petition opposing the tour – this remains one of the largest petitions in our history. Others marched in the streets to voice their opposition. One unique form of protest came from the hugely popular Howard Morrison Quartet. Band member Gerry Merito transformed Lonnie Donegan’s ‘My old man’s a dustman’ into ‘My old man’s an All Black’ to make a point about the decision to tour without M?ori.
Despite these protests the tour went ahead.
When the All Blacks toured South Africa in 1970, M?ori players were able to travel as ‘honorary whites’, a situation that appalled Winter and others in New Zealand’s growing anti-apartheid movement.
The Springboks played a New Zealand M?ori XV at Napier on the first tour in 1921, winning narrowly, 9–8. One South African journalist reported his shock at witnessing white supporters actively supporting the M?ori XV. The two teams next met in 1956, when New Zealand M?ori were defeated 37–0, and again in 1965 when they were defeated 9–3. Napier was the venue in 1981 for a hard-fought 12-all draw.
On the 1976 tour to South Africa the All Blacks played a South African Coloureds team in Cape Town, winning 25–3.
15 Oct 2012, 10:18 am
Central Contracting will never work because of the Provinces. We all agree on that, but surely the Provinces will agree to get a player for two months in super rugby if that players may play in the semis. All Bulls fans will take Fourie du Preez, if only available for 2 months. All Cheetah fans will take Smith. All Stormers supporters will take Louw. Hell, the Kings will take anyone.
15 Oct 2012, 10:20 am
Charo… yep, imaginary, what a laff..
Excluding M?ori players from All Black tours to South Africa was a kindly act, claimed some supporters of apartheid sport. The South African newspaper Die Burger insisted that, ‘The decision to invite only white All Blacks is, in fact, in the interests of the Maoris themselves, for we cannot imagine that they would find the tour of [South Africa] enjoyable. Everywhere, and especially socially, incidents would threaten, and the Maoris would find how radically different things were here compared with New Zealand.’2
15 Oct 2012, 10:24 am
@Tacitus-38: @poppa69-34:
You are correct, it would be ignorant of me or anyone to deny the fact.
Should we apologize for the fact we are an easy target for Pacific Island immigrants looking for a better life.
Reality is the actual immigrants were and are to this day the parents of the players who shine on the rugby field.
That said, reality also says that for every professional Poly rugby player. there will be 100′s of beneficiaries chewing into MY tax contribution.
So if we are expected and do support these folk as equal citizens, surely we should be able to claim them as part of our talent pool..
15 Oct 2012, 10:25 am
@poppa69-43:
wikipedia i assume?
like the bit about the saffa journalist being shocked.
obviously the entry needed some drama to be effective.
so…..the 1960 tour was affected?
isn’t generalization a ******?
15 Oct 2012, 10:26 am
@stormersboy-39:
not a small boy himself.
15 Oct 2012, 10:30 am
Poppa seems to forget that SA also did not select non-whites for the Boks.
In terms of team strength, this cancels out the fact that Maoris were not selected for the ABs.
15 Oct 2012, 10:41 am
@charo-47:
NZ society also evolved.
50 years ago the majority of Maori lived in rural communities. I lived in in that environment in the late 50′s and know the only sport in town was rugby, but the technical skill level of coaches was poor, and the demands of the Iwi extends well passed chasing dreams.
With the exception of a very small number of hugely talented players, NZ let alone the world never experienced the potential that existed amongst the Maoris in that era.
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