Poms plundering Pacific Islands talent
26 Oct 2012
Fiji coach Inoke Male has labelled England ‘vultures’ for their stockpiling of foreign players.
Male told The Times of London that several players have made themselves unavailable for Fiji (who play England on 10 November) in a bid to become eligible to play for England or France under the IRB’s three-year residency rule.
Racing Métro outside back Virimi Vakatawa wants to play for France while England coach Stuart Lancaster has included Mako Vunipola, the Saracens prop who is the son of Fe’ao Vunipola, the Tonga international, alongside Manu Tuliagi, whose elder brothers played for Samoa, in his squad for the November internationals.
‘There are several players not available to us for this tour because they want to play for other countries,’ Male told The Times. ‘Young players now want to pursue options for other countries rather than coming on tour which is not a good sign. We have got a lot of problems caused by European countries, especially France and England, who have taken some of our players through their academies when they were young. England and France have got a lot of players to pick from already and, as a small country, for our players to be poached from us is not acceptable.
‘There is one very talented player we wanted to select who went to an English academy and he is now 16 years old and has opted to play for England. It is very obvious what is happening. If you go to the secondary school championships you will see scouts from Australia, New Zealand and England trying to find your players who want to go overseas. They are taking our young players like vultures.’
99 Comments
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26 Oct 2012, 09:56 am
Money
26 Oct 2012, 10:14 am
Well said Male!
“Scouts from Australia, NEW ZEALAND and England.”
The game’s biggest poachers.
I am The Authority.
26 Oct 2012, 10:32 am
Not England.
New Zealand.
26 Oct 2012, 10:39 am
England and France are merely attractive destinations for the players due to the coin and the possibility of citizenship.
New Zealand is the poacher. I’ve lost count of how many players it has poached.
26 Oct 2012, 10:41 am
@the authority-2:
I will say this once, because I will not respond to any of your posts again.
You are an ignorant Troll!.
.
26 Oct 2012, 10:57 am
Lets get real here.
Exactly who are these fellows you have developed Inoke, that are now being pinched?
26 Oct 2012, 11:33 am
The three year residency rule is a joke. Thanks to the IRB you may as well select the worlds top 100 players and select 4 captains. And then get them to select their team like we did in primary school…everyone taking their turn. Finally select which colour jerseys to wear and hey presto…….International Rugby IRB style. Strauss playing for Ireland is a joke. And Josh Strauss playing for Scotland in 3 years another joke.
To be US president one has to be born in the USA. Same should apply when it comes to international rugby.
26 Oct 2012, 11:33 am
The poaching debate rears its ugly head again. Glad to hear it directed at the Europeans now rather than us Kiwis. Besides Sivivatu, who came to NZ as a teenager, I believe, on a soccer scholarship, I don’t feel especially bad about our poaching record in recent years. Besides him, GH did blood one or two guys he maybe shouldn’t have way back in 2005 – only example I could find was Taumoepeau and I had to search allblacks.com to find his name. Anesi also gets mentioned but I’m not sure when he arrived in NZ, teens or earlier? The issue seems to be he only played one match then couldn’t play for Samoa. Any others people can think of since then?
@the authority-2: Perhaps the authority could name them but you were probably in nappies back then.
@willievz-4: More constructively, does anyone have a suggestion on how the rules could change? For example the Aussies fielded two you guys who had played u20/21 for NZ. Should there be a stand down period? Same with Maitland potentially going to Scotland and Anscombe made noises about Wales. I have no problem with fringe players going abroad but perhaps they should have to wait some time before exploiting the ancestral rule otherwise you get the Rathbone case.
But what about poaching – is it wrong to select a guy that was high school-educated in the country? Primary school? Where is the cut off point. What about NZ-born guys playing for Samoa?
Would love to hear your opinion Authority, if that’s what you claim to be
26 Oct 2012, 11:39 am
@XV-7: I take issue with the where-you’re-born rule. Take Mils for NZ as an example – he hadn’t lived in Samoa since he was two years old. Grew up in NZ, played all his rugby in NZ, all his friends and family in NZ. Can you tell him at high school that he can’t play secondary schools for NZ, he has to go back to a country he’s never lived in? Should he have to pack up his life and move to Samoa?
And then what about guys like Pocock and Kaino, same story but also coming from countries so small on a rugby scale, you would destroy their careers. It could almost be viewed as xenophobic to exclude a kid because of where he was born
26 Oct 2012, 11:46 am
@gonzo-8: Yes it is a difficult situation. There was talk a while ago about countries “registering” a second team for example an under 20 team or “A” team and that once you have been picked for that team you could not be picked for another country. I don’t know what the solution is. The fact is that certain players, e.g Richardt Strauss would not have been picked for the Boks and went to play for Leinster. I’m not sure that his initial idea was to stay there permanently but according to Declan Kidney he gave “his all” for Leinster and committed to his team. I see no reason why somebody like that can’t qualify for the “other” national side. His case was certainly not about being poached.
C J Stander , loosie of the Bulls is leaving for Ireland as well and it seems that he wants to qualify to play for Ireland. He was however brought to a Bok training camp as one of 6 promising youngsters. Yet he decided to leave SA. Sometimes the players IMO are not prepared to wait a season or two in their home country.
26 Oct 2012, 11:52 am
@gonzo-9: I agree: George Gregan was born in Zambia ( I think); Corne Krige was born in Zambia; Pocock in Zimbabwe: Beast in Zim as well: surely we can’t expect them to play in their countries of birth. The young Raymond Rhule who played for SA U/20 in the recent WC was born in Ghana. His family came to SA in about 1999 when he was about 7 years old.
26 Oct 2012, 11:53 am
@CharlesM-11: Bob Skinstad was born in Zim as well
26 Oct 2012, 11:57 am
@gonzo-9: Yeah that’s a fair point. For me it should be a case of having to finish school in the country you want to play for. So no senior club or provincial rugby for any other countries. The thing we need to eradicate is a 22 year old leaving say SA and playing for England. Whereas a 16 year old doing the same thing should be ok.
26 Oct 2012, 12:10 pm
@gonzo-9: fair point. I do not think its an impossible situation. Maybe something like this…if a player has represented his country at U19 level and upwards he should be ‘landlocked’. Otherwise its a 5 year residency rule.
3 years is simply too easy. Strauss an Irishman? What a joke…..even the Irish are laughing.
26 Oct 2012, 12:15 pm
Tiechmann, Chivanga, Mordt, (and quite a few others) were also Zimbos and Kringe was Zambian (as was Georgie Gregan by birth) ….
Perhaps the qualification period should be longer – like 5/7 years ???
26 Oct 2012, 12:16 pm
Many countries have foreign players representing them and many will argue that these players were born somewhere else but moved over when they were 3 years old etc…. These are all valid and we can’t very well accuse thse actions as that of Poaching…
However…
Some countries employ “scouts” to go to other country’s schools and spot young talent… This is what we call poaching. New Zealand is chief among these poaching countries and has been since the game started. This point has been discussed at the highest level and its fair to say that New Zealand started the trend.
Right now, England, Australia and New Zealand employ scouts and as such, they are poachers.
New Zealand even tried to set up a poach camp in South Africa!!…. The Crusaders Rugby Union attempted to get funding to set up a Pretoria based poach camp and it was only when SARU appealed to the IRB in the strongest terms that the Crusaders were ordered to stop.
I am The Authority.
26 Oct 2012, 12:18 pm
@XV-14: I would be happier with 5 years, any less is crazy. But landlocking 20-30 guys each year at u20 level could cause problems. You’d get a lot of Samoan guys brought up in NZ no longer available to play for Samoa. Half of the u20 guys will never break into the national team. ‘d prefer some stand down period of a few years. Mike Harris could never crack the Blues, I’m happy for him to play for Oz. Kepu is an odd case, born in Oz, grew up and played u21 for NZ, then moved back so I wouldn’t want to landlock him either
@CharlesM-12: and on top of that you get guys like Ben Franks and Andrew Mehrtens, born to kiwi parents in another country, who return home after a couple of years. Imagine growing up a Kiwi, being good enough for the ABs but having to play for Oz. It would kill you a little inside each time. No offence to the Aussies, I know the reverse would apply but they’d only be on the bench
@Skeppie-13: I agree and we’re seeing it happening more and more. It doesn’t bother us Kiwis too much yet, it’s only fringe guys threatening to play for UK teams but it is getting worse and it can have an effect on the PI teams.
The other interesting effect of professionalism that is starting to show is kids with good genes coming to the UK with their parents or brothers for rugby, e.g. Faletau, Tuilagi, and even Ben Botica has made himself available for England. This is going to be much more common in ten, twenty years.
All up though, I feel poaching is killing England more than anyone. Must be demoralising for a youngster to see his place filled by some guy that just arrived three years ago
26 Oct 2012, 12:19 pm
@the authority-16: name them
26 Oct 2012, 12:19 pm
What’s the difference between a Rhino Poacher and a Kiwi Rugby coach?
….
The Kiwi rugby coach poaches rugby players from other countries, not rhinos.
26 Oct 2012, 12:23 pm
This is a pretty complicated issue, especially in the case of New Zealand and sometimes SA… England is pretty cut and dry if you ask me. They are more desperate for talent than the 3N teams are because they aren’t as good so they will shamelessly select guys like Brad Barrit, Thomas Waldrom and Manu Tuilagi. Especially Waldrom and Barrit, who a couple of years before their selection were playing in their HOME countries in a bid to wear THEIR colour jerseys. It shouldn’t matter who your grandparents were or where your Mum was born. YOU are not English. And 3 year residency should not be enough… International sport should have a higher standard than this, it’s based on patriotism and national pride, what are the English proud about wrt Barrit or Waldrom?? They played no part in their rugby education whatsoever!
Josh Strauss has already won a Varsity Cup in Stellies and a Currie Cup in Joburg before deciding that he’s actually quite Scottish… This shouldn’t be allowed. Guys like Ugo Monye are different, they at least played age group rugby in England.
As far as NZ is concerned… I don’t share the view that they ‘poach’ islander teams.. Yes, you do get the odd guy who pitches up age 21 and is embraced into the All Black fold, but the reasons for moving to NZ from the islands is often about more than just rugby… There’s a lot of “urbanisation” of sorts going on, families leaving the islands for the bigger country (economically), possibly in search of opportunities and better schooling etc, who knows… Joe Rokocoko moved to NZ when he was 5.
It’s similar in SA, guys like Skinstad, Percy Montgomery, Corne Krige and the up and coming Don Armand (not that he’ll play Boks, just saying) have all been born outside of SA but then are schooled and go to university in SA. I would argue that they have enough of a link to cause South Africans to be proud of them and allow them to be representative of SA.
Not so with the majority of British imports. There’s no rule against it, but they should be ashamed of themselves.
26 Oct 2012, 12:25 pm
@the authority-19: If you’re such an authority I’m sure you can reel off a list of scouted players. I gave you Sivivatu, who was scouted for soccer. Name the rest
26 Oct 2012, 12:29 pm
@Tarlo-20:
Totally agree dude – guys like the Strauss’ should serve a 7 year “stand down period”, while I’m more understanding of an import who at least played in age group teams (preferably u/18′s max) for his new country ….
26 Oct 2012, 12:29 pm
For me the problem is that National Rugby sides are acting as if they were clubs. I’ve no problem with players going overseas to play for a club, but the IRB needs to be far stricter on its residency rules. Full citizenship should be the first requisite followed by another 3 years before qualifying. This would eliminate a lot of the abuses.
26 Oct 2012, 12:30 pm
@the authority-19:
What’s the difference between the authority and a sack of shiite?
Not much it seems.
26 Oct 2012, 12:32 pm
The Vumipola’s,( younger brother 19, plays back row for Wasps) were aged 5 and 7, when the family moved to the UK.. Both have played for England ate various levels up to U20. How is that Poaching ??
26 Oct 2012, 12:32 pm
Oh, the Poms are well versed at this sort of thing; they’ll take anybody with the smallest of hints of British ancestry/heritage.
Just ask Zola Budd.
26 Oct 2012, 12:33 pm
@gonzo-17:
Aren’t tier 2 teams like Samoa, allowed to field players who’ve represented tier 1 countries?
26 Oct 2012, 12:36 pm
@Tarlo-20: Josh Strauss and CJ Stander left because they saw no future for themselves in SA.
And they have my full sympathy.
Both of them should have been Boks by now.
26 Oct 2012, 12:37 pm
@PaulLondon-25:
It’s not Paulie.
It’s called freedom of choice.
26 Oct 2012, 12:39 pm
@David-27: Not that I’m aware of. It used to be possible to play for multiple countries but they changed it around 2000 or just before. It should be an option but how to define tier 2, should players have to stand down? And would it be beneficial anyway? Samoa would have an awesome team of ex-ABs but it would do little to develop Samoan rugby. But definitely something the IRB should consider because nationality is not always simple
26 Oct 2012, 12:44 pm
@willievz-28: Good reason to leave, bad reason to be allowed to play for another nationality. Thats not how international sports should work, worse teams picking up the slack from better teams… Then we would indeed just have a New Zealand B team playing in the World Cup instead of Romania, just because those guys left when they realised they wouldnt make it. Thats not how it should work.
26 Oct 2012, 12:47 pm
I do like the Fifa Rule.
Once you have represented A Country. At any level. That is your Country. End of.
26 Oct 2012, 12:48 pm
@Tarlo-31: Agreed.
Good post.
26 Oct 2012, 12:53 pm
@gonzo-30:
The IRB determines the tier level. I think the rule still applies. It’s designed to assist developing teams.
26 Oct 2012, 12:55 pm
@cane-32:
Great rule … IRB should do the same/similar – it would be the fairest way (IMHO) of sorting it out.
26 Oct 2012, 12:59 pm
@David-27: no, they’re not.
26 Oct 2012, 12:59 pm
Of the current England squad. Tuilagi, aged 11 when he came to the UK. in through the age groups,Barritt and Waldrom,English mother,Hartley 8 year resident.
Mouritz Botha,is the guy I take my hat off to. In the UK 10 years.One of the many who left SA for reasons other than rugby. No fat contract. No free ride. Worked his way though the grass roots levels of English Rugby Worked in factories and cleaned carpets for a living before he was offered a Saracens contract via Bedford and Athletic in The Championship.
26 Oct 2012, 13:01 pm
@SyKoPlaya-35: I feel like that should go without saying??? Representing a country isn’t based on money or getting game time etc… its based on your allegiance… And you can’t have more than one! Sure, you can have an affinity for another country, many south africans do in a way for UK even though they don’t admit it, but thats not the same as an ALLEGIANCE.
26 Oct 2012, 13:01 pm
@gonzo-30: @David-34: this was mooted and rejected by the likes of Ireland, Wales. why should Rokocoko represent the ABs for close to a decade and when discarded by them switch to a fijian jumper? ditto sivivatu
you play for one country, that’s it!
26 Oct 2012, 13:03 pm
@PaulLondon-37: “One of the many who left SA for reasons other than rugby” – what the hell does this mean?
26 Oct 2012, 13:04 pm
@PaulLondon-37: Mate, I don’t give a damn where your MOTHER was born?! They’re not picking HER for the team, they’re picking you… as a representative of ENGLISH rugby! Which neither Barrit nor Waldrom is.
Sorry I just don’t accept it.
26 Oct 2012, 13:07 pm
@Tarlo-20: Monye was born, raised and educated in England. Are you thinking of Victor Ubogu?
26 Oct 2012, 13:13 pm
@Martini-42: No, I did mean Monye, didn’t realise he was born there too! Was just making the point that he went to school there etc. so the (mistaken) fact that he was born in Nigeria didn’t change his eligibility (in my mind) to play for England. I do stand corrected though, cheers.
26 Oct 2012, 13:16 pm
@Transformation-39: Good point, I figured it wouldn’t help Samoa to have ageing ABs taking places of real Samoans but I hadn’t even considered Samoa would start smashing the 6 nations teams
@PaulLondon-37: I don’t have a major issue with most of the current English “poached” players. Hape was probably the worst case, born and raised and played for the Kiwis then became English in his mid twenties. Same with Flutey, having played for NZ Maori. Waldrom I’m not sure how I feel. He qualifies because his Nan was born in England (not his Mum) but grew up in NZ, which means she was probably supporting the ABs pre-WWII, if she’s a rugby fan. Ben Botica is next in line, another born and raised Kiwi who played 1st grade in NZ. Anyway, I’m more concerned about the effect on smaller nations than guys who can’t crack the ABs
26 Oct 2012, 13:36 pm
If you grow up and go to school in a country you weren’t born in you should be able to play for that country, like Manu and Vunipola have. It’s hardly poaching in these cases. Also if you live in a country for a long time, make your home there etc., like Botha who probably would have stayed in England even if he hadn’t been a professional rugby player.
What irks me slightly is a case like Josh Strauss, where a player goes to a place to which they have no prior connection, with the stated aim of playing for the national team. Was it that unlikely that he would have played for the boks anyway? Presumably he would have been picked up by another South African team. The way people were talking a while ago he was on the verge of a call up.
26 Oct 2012, 13:41 pm
@David-23: Agree with you.Strauss will play rugby for Ireland on his SA passport.Crazy indeed.
26 Oct 2012, 13:50 pm
@44- gonzo
I agree with you on Hape,and Flutey. You can add Henry Paul to the mix.
A line has to be drawn
Apologies-I thought Waldrom’s mother is English. You’re correct its the granny.
Botica has signed a 2 year deal with Harlequins,with the intention to return to NZ and complete for an AB spot.
26 Oct 2012, 14:02 pm
@PaulLondon-47: The most recent article I saw said Botica is available for England. But he did spend plenty of time in the UK with his dad so it’s probably not so bad. I’m more annoyed at the Blues for letting him go, much more so than when they let Harris leave to play for Oz
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oct/14/harlequins-biarritz-heineken-cup
As you said, Hartley spent some of his teens in the UK so I have no problem with it but I tell you, seeing him score for England against us a couple of years back drive me crazy
that was the first try we’d conceded on a November tour in about five years. And then Hape almost got over for another!
26 Oct 2012, 14:30 pm
@gonzo-48: remember hartley SMASHING richie while he was prone on the ground?
how did u feel about that?
26 Oct 2012, 14:31 pm
@48 Gonzo- Nick Evans going down a couple of weeks ago might have changed his mind. Quins, are my local team. We were all wondering who did he upset at the Blues for them to let him go at such a young age. Botica had a stormer when he came on.
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