Poms plundering Pacific Islands talent
26 Oct 2012
Fiji coach Inoke Male has labelled England ‘vultures’ for their stockpiling of foreign players.
Male told The Times of London that several players have made themselves unavailable for Fiji (who play England on 10 November) in a bid to become eligible to play for England or France under the IRB’s three-year residency rule.
Racing Métro outside back Virimi Vakatawa wants to play for France while England coach Stuart Lancaster has included Mako Vunipola, the Saracens prop who is the son of Fe’ao Vunipola, the Tonga international, alongside Manu Tuliagi, whose elder brothers played for Samoa, in his squad for the November internationals.
‘There are several players not available to us for this tour because they want to play for other countries,’ Male told The Times. ‘Young players now want to pursue options for other countries rather than coming on tour which is not a good sign. We have got a lot of problems caused by European countries, especially France and England, who have taken some of our players through their academies when they were young. England and France have got a lot of players to pick from already and, as a small country, for our players to be poached from us is not acceptable.
‘There is one very talented player we wanted to select who went to an English academy and he is now 16 years old and has opted to play for England. It is very obvious what is happening. If you go to the secondary school championships you will see scouts from Australia, New Zealand and England trying to find your players who want to go overseas. They are taking our young players like vultures.’
99 Comments
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26 Oct 2012, 14:32 pm
Kiwis are poachers. Always have been.
This isn’t an argument, it’s just bloody obvious.
Can’t believe kiwis are trying to deny it. Seems they have no shame.
26 Oct 2012, 14:35 pm
Kiwi Rugby Reputation:
1) Poaching
2) Cheating
3) Sore losers
4) Chokers
They are a good rugby nation, but the above characteristics are true of them.
26 Oct 2012, 14:37 pm
Sean Lineen scored for Scotland against the All Blacks prompting the commentator to say
” A New Zealander scores against New Zealand ” That ain’t right”
26 Oct 2012, 14:44 pm
New Zealand and Australia are the 2 biggest culprits for poaching (with England fast approaching the ‘Big 2′).
Steve Hansen has recently slammed the Australian Rugby Union for poaching after Mike Harris scored 15 points in the 18 all draw between the Wallabies and the All Blacks.
Mike Harris responded as follows:
“Both teams have been doing it (importing overseas-born players) forever. He (Hansen) can’t point the finger too much.
“I played in New Zealand for 20 years and I wasn’t getting an opportunity but got one with the Reds and (coach) Ewen McKenzie. And I’m thankful for that.”
26 Oct 2012, 14:44 pm
@Transformation-49: When he scored the the try, we were all “ah, it takes a poached kiwi for the english to score” but when he smashed Richie suddenly he was very much an Englishman again
@PaulLondon-50: I have no idea what goes on at the Blues sometimes. I’ve heard the reason we lost Mils was because his girlfriend, who worked there, got offside (excuse the rugby pun) with management
@poltergeist-52: This year we haven’t poached, lost or choked. I’ll let you have #2
26 Oct 2012, 14:50 pm
http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/wallabies/aru-boss-john-oneill-brands-all-blacks-coach-steve-hansens-claims-of-poaching-as-insulting/story-e6frf55l-1226501250874
26 Oct 2012, 15:01 pm
@poltergeist-56: wow, not an article about incest. You do think about rugby once in a while.
I know you’re just stirring and don’t really want an answer but I’ll put it in context for you. A journo asked Steve if Mike Harris was an indication that our talent identification system isn’t working. He rightly pointed out that it is fine because he had played u20 for NZ and NPC and was obviously identified and developed by NZ. Unfortunately he was too impatient to get a super rugby contract so went to Oz.
Steve then said that if Australia wants five franchises, they should be developing their own talent rather than poaching players developed in NZ. Harris wouldn’t have made the ABs anyway but he might be in the Blues if he’d bided his time. He only left because the system allowed him to play in Oz. It is an issue for them tho if there is a ceiling for young players who are blocked by Kiwi players at super rugby level.
26 Oct 2012, 15:11 pm
Where you were born and grew up should have nothing to do with who you play for-its where you choose to live that matters. We have no problem with accountants and lawyers leaving, but as soon as a sports player makes a better life for themself, they’re a traitor or a mercenery. The rule should be that you can only play for a country where you are a citizen. In the UK, it takes 6 years.
26 Oct 2012, 15:11 pm
@gonzo-57:
Ozzies and kiwis bitching about who poaches the most… Pathetic really. Both of you need to take a long hard look at yourselves and ask what the jersey means to your country. (You more so than the ozzies)
26 Oct 2012, 15:13 pm
@catchlightuk.com-58:
The Kiwis and Ozzies employ talent scouts… These guys go to other countries and watch shcool boy rugby to entice young talent to move abroad.
Shameful stuff.
26 Oct 2012, 15:16 pm
@the authority-59: Nice little lecture there about the jersey
but you still haven’t actually named any of these scouted players
26 Oct 2012, 15:18 pm
No need for NZ’ders to get all defensive. Sure it’s poaching but the players can still play. Just admit it. After all, I believe players should be free to cut the best deal for them. They do the hard graft. Coaches, politicians and administrators are mostly just scum floating on the surface. Hansen’s petty little whinge just proves it. Precious kwee.
26 Oct 2012, 17:01 pm
I wonder which Fijian youngster Mr. Male feels the RFU have poached.
I don’t really buy into all the ‘it’s not really poaching’ arguments. If you’re going around other nations offering their underage players scholarships etc with the likelihood they’ll eventually choose your national team then there is no other description for it.
26 Oct 2012, 17:09 pm
@Big Hit-63:
I agree. In fact in Australia it just seems to be part of their immigration policy.
26 Oct 2012, 17:14 pm
@catchlightuk.com-58: did it tak barritt, flutey, hape six years to play for England?
26 Oct 2012, 17:18 pm
@David-64: Probably. They stimulate their own economy and offer open door immigration with free social benefits to hundreds of thousands of NZers in the hope that a handful of the second generation will play for the Wallabies. Damn those Aussies!
We want Quade back! Haha, actually they can keep him
26 Oct 2012, 17:39 pm
@willievz-4: “New Zealand is the poacher. I’ve lost count of how many players it has poached.”
Don’t tell me you can count. But you can try. Count ‘em now – in public.
@poltergeist-52: LOL, who would point the finger about sore losing.
26 Oct 2012, 17:43 pm
It makes a mockery of international rugby. Up here theres a big debate about Strauss. Most people are against it but we have no voice it seems.
Let England pack their team full of Islanders. They’ll soon realise the downsides to it.
26 Oct 2012, 18:00 pm
Ireland is doing the exact same. Strauss, Quinn Roux, CJ Stander; Poolman.
It will come to a head soon and this rule will need to change. Like what happened in the cricket circles. People got pissed with Eng poaching players and therefore altered the qualification rule. When countries play one another it should be our best vs your best NOT our best vs our rejects of poached players.
As you were.
26 Oct 2012, 19:25 pm
@cane-24: The sack?
26 Oct 2012, 20:15 pm
Haha the poaching debate again…
3 countries who do this really: New Zealand, Australia and England.
Those are the only 3 countries who have staff employed as “scouts” by their Rugby Administration to go to other countries and find schoolboy talent.
I’m not a fan of this personally, but it’s a reality. No use whining about it.
Just funny to watch the perpertrators deny it.
26 Oct 2012, 20:19 pm
@JayBok-69:
Jaybok, Strauss is the first for Ireland. The Stander deal is for 2 years and it looks like he’ll return to play for SA. Theres no talk of Poolman or Roux playing for Ireland. It won’t stop a coach from picking them though so lets hope the laws will change soon.
26 Oct 2012, 21:50 pm
Of the 1100 odd players who have played for the AB’s throughout the history of NZ rugby, there have been a total of 30 who were born in one of the Pacific Islands and the majority of those arrived with their immigrant parents as young children.
A larger number of foreign born form AB’s actually came from Europe, also as children when their parents emigrated.
Inoke Male and to a lesser extent, Steve Hansen, are railing at the practice in Europe and Australia of recruiting other countries players for their teams rather than developing there own.
26 Oct 2012, 22:04 pm
@Brads-73: list the 30, poacher
26 Oct 2012, 22:09 pm
Importers and Exporters
Importers
15: Samoa (all from New Zealand)
12: USA
11: Italy
10: Japan
9: Tonga
8: England
7: Australia, Scotland
5: Canada, Fiji, Namibia, Wales
4: Ireland, New Zealand
2: France, Russia
1: South Africa
0: Argentina, Georgia, Romania
Exporters
38: New Zealand
13: Australia, South Africa
6: Argentina, England
5: American Samoa, Samoa
4: Tonga
3: Fiji
2: Hong Kong, USA, Zimbabwe
1: Burkina Faso, Canada, Cote d’Ivoire, Israel, Kenya, Mexico, Scotland, Uzbekistan
0: France, Georgia, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Namibia, Romania, Russia, Wales
Three Samoans in the Kiwi team the last time around
26 Oct 2012, 22:30 pm
Andrew Mehrtens was the All Blacks golden boy until Dan Carter came to the seen, hightest point scorer etc etc– and he was South African.
If you have been to the pasific Islands you will know for the locals life is very tough and villages are extremely small and unstructured very poor.
If you are able to to get a better life via rugby, ie ching ching backaroos, then absolutely go for it.
So in this case Viva the poaching, this will only increase the standard of life for them and the countries as a whole.
All lovely people, Samoa, Fiji, Tonga having them does not harm your country they do work!
For the country its a win win, but for rugby its a loose.
Reality must come first, goes without saying.
26 Oct 2012, 22:48 pm
@Greenies-76:
Appears SA rugby doesn’t share your personal view, seeing as it has no qualms selecting players not born in SA, and even appointing them captain. i.e. Gary Teichmann, Corné Krige and Bobby Skinstad
27 Oct 2012, 02:19 am
@Greenies-76: “Andrew Mehrtens was the All Blacks golden boy until Dan Carter came to the seen, hightest point scorer etc etc– and he was South African.”
To be fair, he is as South African as Ronan O’Gara American or Simon Shaw a Kenyan. Born to Kiwi parents living there for a few years and returned home as a small child.
@JL1-75: “Three Samoans in the Kiwi team the last time around.”
Last time around there is not a single player born outside NZ. Previous few were “imported” like 2 year olds or something.
There must be an imagination of biblical proportions to believe in scouting system who is able to identify potential black jersey wearer from toddlers who have hardly learned how to keep their panties clean.
27 Oct 2012, 02:26 am
what about SA and all the zimbabweans they’ve poached over the years?
isn’t beast. poach as a current example?
hahhaa hypocrites. typical loser mentality huh, looking for excuses.
SA is not exempt from the poaching angle. so suck it up poletergeist, the authority and all th other w@nkers harping on about it
27 Oct 2012, 02:38 am
beast, come play for SA
I don’t have a SA passport?
its alright. we’ll sort it., expediently.
27 Oct 2012, 05:14 am
Let’s look at the facts. Here are the origins of all foreign-born RWC squad players….
Argentina: All born in Argentina
Australia: Dan Vickerman (Cape Town, South Africa), Radike Samo (Nadi, Fiji), Will Genia (Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea), Stephen Moore (Khamis, Saudi Arabia), David Pocock (Messina, South Africa), Quade Cooper (Auckland, New Zealand), Digby Ioane (Wellington, New Zealand)
Canada: Nanyak Dala (Jos, Nigeria), DTH (Daniel Tailliferre Hauman) van der Merwe (Worcester, South Africa), Jeremy Kyne (Wellington, New Zealand), Jamie Mackenzie (Troon, Scotland), James Pritchard (Parkes, Australia)
England: Joe Simpson (Sydney, Australia), Delon Armitage (San Fernando, Trinidad & Tobago), Alex Corbisiero, New York, USA), Matt Stevens (Durban, South Africa), Dylan Hartley (Rotorua, New Zealand), Simon Shaw (Nairobi, Kenya), Shontayne Hape (Auckland, New Zealand), Manu Tuilagi (Moto’otua, Samoa)
Fiji: Nicky Little (Tokoroa, New Zealand), Campese Ma’afu (Sydney, Australia), Deacon Manu (New Plymouth, New Zealand), Vitori Tomu Buatava (Melbourne, Australia), Michael Tagicakibau (Auckland, New Zealand)
France: Thierry Dusautoir (Abidjan, Côte d’Ivoire), Fulgence Ouedraogo (Ouagadougou, Burkina Faso)
Georgia: All Georgian-born.
Ireland: Ronan O’Gara (San Diego, USA), Isaac Boss (Tokoroa, New Zealand), Jamie Heaslip (Tiberias, Israel), Tom Court (Brisbane, Australia)
Italy: Carlo Del Fava (Umtata, South Africa), Corniel van Zyl (Nelspruit, South Africa), Quintin Geldenhuys Klerksdorp (South Africa), Martin Castrogiovanni (Paraná, Argentina), Pablo Canavosio (Córdoba, Argentina), Luciano Orquera (Córdoba, Argentina), Gonzalo Garcia (Mendoza, Argentina), Robert Barbieri (Toronto, Canada), Sergio Parisse (Mar del Plata, Argentina), Gonzalo Canale (Córdoba, Argentina), Luke McLean (Townsville, Australia)
Japan: Luke Thompson (Christchurch, New Zealand), Michael Leitch (Burwood, New Zealand), Ryukoliniasi Holani (Nuku’alofa, Tonga), Shaun Webb (Blenheim, New Zealand), Justin Ives (Mosgiel, New Zealand), Sione Talikavili Vatuvei (Nuku’alofa, Tonga), James Arlidge (Hamilton, New Zealand), Murray Williams (Lower Hutt, New Zealand), Ryan Nicholas (Broken Hill, Australia), Alisi Tupuailai (Manunu, Samoa)
Namibia: Jacques Nieuwenhuis (Brakpan, South Africa), Piet van Zyl (Worcester, South Africa), Danie Dames (Pretoria, South Africa), Chrysander Botha (Walvis Bay, South Africa), Conrad Marais (Walvis Bay, South Africa)
NB At the time of their birth Walvis Bay was South African territory.
New Zealand: Mils Muliaina (Salelesi, Samoa), Ben Franks (Frankston, Australia), Jerome Kaino (Tutuila, Samoa), Isaia Toeava (Moto’otua, Samoa)
Romania: All Romania born.
Russia: Adam Byrnes (Sydney, Australia), Vyacheslav Grachev (Tashkent (Uzbekistan)
Samoa: Census Johnston (Auckland, New Zealand), Anthony Perenise (Wellington, New Zealand), Olé Avei (Wellington, New Zealand), Daniel Leo (Palmerston North, New Zealand), Kane Thompson (Paraparaumu, New Zealand), Kahn Fotuali’i (Auckland, New Zealand), Jeremy Sua (Wellington, New Zealand), Tusi Pisi (Auckland, New Zealand), Sailosi Tagicakibau (Auckland, New Zealand), James So’oialo (Wellington, New Zealand), Ti’i Paulo (Christchurch, New Zealand), Filipo Lavea Levi (Hamilton, New Zealand), Junior Poluleuligaga (Auckland, New Zealand), Tasesa Lavea (Taihape, New Zealand), Paul Williams (Auckland, New Zealand)
Scotland: John Barclay (Hong Kong), Nathan Hines, Australia), Dan Parks, Australia), Jim Hamilton (Swindon), Ruaridh Jackson (Northampton, England), Max Evans (Torquay, England), Graeme Morrison( Hong Kong, Hong Kong)
South Africa: Tendai Mtawarira (Harare, Zimbabwe)
Tonga: Tukulua Lokotui (Auckland, New Zealand), Kurt Morath (Takapuna, New Zealand), Alipate Fatafehi (Sigatoka, Fiji), Ephraim Taukafa (Auckland, New Zealand), Joseph Tuineau (Suva, Fiji), Thomas Palu (Wellington, New Zealand), Andrew Ma’ilei (Auckland, New Zealand), William Helu (Otahuhu, New Zealand), Siale Piutau (Auckland, New Zealand)
USA: Takudzwa Ngwenya (Harare, Zimbabwe), Iñaki Basauri (Monterre, Mexico), JJ Gagiano (Cape Town, South Africa), Matekitonga Moeakiola Vaini, Tonga), Valenise Malifa (Pago Pago, American Samoa), Hayden Smith (Penrith, Australia), Tai Enosa (Faga’alu, American Samoa), Andrew Suniula (Pago Pago, American Samoa), James Paterson (Christchurch, New Zealand), Tim Usasz (Brisbane, Australia), Junior Sifa (Faga’alu (American Samoa), Roland Suniula (Pago Pago, American Samoa)
Wales: Luke Charteris (Camborne, England), Danny Lydiate (Salford, England), Toby Faletau (Tofoa, Tonga), Jonathan Davies (Solihull, England), George North (King’s Lynn, England)
27 Oct 2012, 05:26 am
Of the four NZ foreign-borns, Muliaina moved to NZ when he was two. Kaino moved to NZ at age four. Toeava (Mangere East HS, South Auckland) and Franks (Aranui HS, Christchurch) did their entire five years of high schooling and rugby learning in NZ and neither was “scouted” by anyone — they moved along with their families. And Franks isn’t even an islander — he’s an Aussie.
Such a pity, pilgrims, that the facts always squash all the juice out of a juicy myth…
27 Oct 2012, 05:40 am
Samoa has a population of less than 200,000. Fiji has nearly 900,000 people. Tonga has just over 100,000 people. The grand total of all three these island-nations is collectively only 1.2 million.
27 Oct 2012, 06:24 am
The English cricket team have been doing this ffor years, just look at the number of South Africans who have played for them, not just now but in days gone by.
Allan Lamb, Robin Smith, Graham Hick etc etc
This isn’t a new thing
Remember the Bashop brothers?
One played for Samoa at the same time as the other played for the All Blacks.
Tuigamala? Played for both. No sure how that works.
Umaga Brothers? Mike played for Samoa and famously broke Andre Joubert’s hand in the WC, Tana played for the AB’s
27 Oct 2012, 07:24 am
@poltergeist-51:
@the authority-60:
Strange?
You guys have been asked what players in the AB team were poached through scouting…
And not one of you numbskulls can think of any.
Gonzo gave you a one name.
Just proves you guys have nothing at all. NOt one bit of proof.
My boy goes to Christchurch boys high school, now this is a good school. He plays rugby. I asked him how many kids that play rugby at his school are fresh of the boat or lets say scouted.
None…. none at all. In his team there are 5 islanders out of 25 players. Now i really dont understand where you guys come up with this.
Authority and Poltergeist are the same people. A disturbed South African with a hatred against Islanders and Kiwis. They want Islanders to play for there own team…..hmmmm makes you wonder.
27 Oct 2012, 07:28 am
@stormersboy-84:
Umaga brothers were both born in Wellington.
I dont think you can poach anyone thats born in your own country really.
27 Oct 2012, 07:57 am
@Hurricane-86: I havent seen authority or poltergeist post on a non NZ thread
they are either Keo employees, or one of the many racist saffas on this sites multinics..
it is rather ironic that for so long brown skinned people were thought of as inferior, now theyre importing them from Zimbabwe to play for their national side (e.g beast etc)
27 Oct 2012, 08:16 am
Adrian Garvey, Bobby Skinstad, Brian Mujati, Ian Robertson, Des van Jaarsveld, David Smith…
27 Oct 2012, 08:50 am
i strongly disagree with the use of terms such as “poaching” ,”vultures” , “stealing” etc etc in these situations.
The players in question made themselves unavailable full stop. Its not like they are being held hostage . Its up to an individual to pledge allegiance to whom he chooses.
Accusing a country of stealing players is serious in my opinion . If your country is too f’d up to attract and encourage talented players to stay and pursue the national jersey then tough ones. s uck it up
27 Oct 2012, 09:34 am
The SA government has it right in this instance. You have to be a citizen of the country if you want to represent it.
A qualification period set by a bunch of farts means absolutely jack.
27 Oct 2012, 10:24 am
OK, going to watch some local cricket until the big game starts.
PRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOVVVVVVVVVIIIIINNNCCCCCCCCEEEEEEEEEEEE
Die kerrie koppie kom huis toe.
27 Oct 2012, 11:00 am
@stormersboy-84: The Bachop’s are very much a chch family, both brothers and nephews Aaron and Nathan Mauger. Samoan heritage, hence they could play for Samoan back in the days when dual nationalities were allowed. Graeme even played for Japan after spending some time there.
@Hurricane-85: You make an interesting point. When I was at school, I’d say easily half my team were samoans, tongans, fijians and even one chinese kid. I don’t know if they were born in NZ or immigrated as kids but i sure as sh*t will tell you that my school didn’t have scouts in the islands. I don’t know about the private schools but they must have started young to catch Mils, Joe, and Kaino at pre-school level
27 Oct 2012, 11:00 am
@nama1-90:
Yes I agree
Citizenship should be a prerequisite of representing a country.
27 Oct 2012, 12:07 pm
South Africans are so race obsessed that if they see a pacific islander playing for NZ they automatically presume he was born in the islands. But ALL of the below were born in New Zealand:
Jonah Lomu, Michael Jones, Pat Lam, Frank Bunce, Kevin Mealamu, Tana Umaga, Maa Nonu, Julian Savea, SB Williams. and lots more.
Then you have Mils Muliaina who came to NZ when he was just 1 year old and Joe Rockococo who arrived in NZ when he was just 5 yrs old. These players were definitely not poached.
Only Joeli Vidiri and Siteveni Sivivatu arrived in NZ having been born overseas and learnt the game overseas. But even Sivi arrived when he was 16.
27 Oct 2012, 12:12 pm
Now lets look at the very long list of Springboks who were born overseas…….Beast, Skinstad, Teichmann, Krige, Chavanga, Spannengberg, Robinson, McCullum, Stewart, Atherton, Garvey, Montgomery, Allan, Mallett,…….the list goes on and on and on.
But just like NZ’s islanders have not been poached, neither have these players. Most came to SA as kids when their parents immigrated to SA
27 Oct 2012, 12:15 pm
@Delki-94:
How old was The Beast when he ditched Zim for SA.
22?……………………………………………..just guessing.
27 Oct 2012, 13:34 pm
I have always been of the opinion or have always thought that the Islanders playing in and for New Zealand were ‘fetched’ from there.
It seems they have always been part and parcel of New Zealand. Thx for clearing that up.
In South Africa Namians and Zimbabweans will always try and play for Boks or Super if there’s a chance. In a way like a second home country.
Where I do have a problem is when big schools come to klein dorpies (small towns) and take the kids away to play rugby for big schools. There’s a time and place for everything. Keep ur kids as kids. Its over very quickly
27 Oct 2012, 15:04 pm
@cane-96: OK, we get it. All the foreign players in the NZ team are immigrants. Good for you.
How many pacific islanders (Not NZ citizens) are playing in the ITM? (honest question)
Actually I could’nt care less were a player was born, but i think citizenship should be a prerequisite for reperesenting a country.
28 Oct 2012, 02:26 am
@TooMuchRugby-98:
Interesting question.
I wouldnt even know how to find that out. But what i do know,those Islanders take what rugby they have learnt in the Kiwi environment and make there own teams back home better. Its a fact alot of players that play ITM actually go back and play for there own country….which is good for rugby.
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