Meyer laments obstacle to dominance
31 Oct 2012
Heyneke Meyer has reiterated his call for a central contracting system as a means of making the Springboks the strongest force in the game.
The success of Meyer’s first season in charge has been compromised by a string of first-choice players going down injured, while there have also been a host of withdrawals of impact and fringe players. He will undertake the year-end tour without the services of Bismarck du Plessis, Bryan Habana, Frans Steyn and Andries Bekker, who are widely considered to be among the best in their positions in the game. They are all sidelined because of what Meyer has attributed to the destructive and cumulative effect of the longest season in their careers.
Meyer has voiced serious concerns about the well-being of the elite players in the recent past and has again suggested that something needs to change or risk their careers being cut by many years, in the process undermining any potential for the Springboks to become the world’s pre-eminent side.
‘My strength has always been to change flawed systems which I hope I can still do while in charge. New Zealand get it right from a player management point of view. We have to look at that as a way forward otherwise we will never be the top team in the world,’ Meyer told keo.co.za. ‘Our top players simply cannot play Currie Cup, Super Rugby and Test matches. Also their social and family life suffers because they are never at home. We are going to lose more players to overseas teams if this doesn’t change. If we want to win consistently, not just one or two here and there, we have to look at the systems going forward.
‘We’re not in an ideal situation and I’m worried about all the injuries, particularly since there are some world-class players unavailable,’ he continued. ‘This tour was already a tough one and with the injuries it will be tougher. It is frustrating because I wanted to try new things and build on what we’ve done so far. But when you have new players coming into the group you have to go back to basics. If you consider that Fourie du Preez and Jaque Fourie weren’t available, and Frans Steyn and Bryan Habana were injured recently, if I had all those players fit suddenly the backline is helluva experienced. Hopefully one day I can pick that backline.’
Team doctor Craig Roberts, however, eased some fears around the availability of players in the squad who are carrying knocks. Francois Louw’s neck injury has responded well to treatment and he is expected to play for Bath on Sunday. Adriaan Strauss will participate fully in training this week after a knee injury, while captain Jean de Villiers (hamstring) has already started running and will be available for selection for the Ireland Test.
Meyer confirmed that he had settled on the 32nd player to tour but could not say who because details were still being discussed with his club. Locks Bakkies Botha (Toulon) and Marco Wentzel (London Wasps) are on standby. Meyer extolled Wentzel’s lineout value (he has been the Premiership’s most successful lineout receiver), while adding that he still held Botha in high regard. ‘I’d love to have Bakkies involved because I think he has two or three years left in him at Test level,’ he said. ‘But he isn’t going to start ahead of Eben and he isn’t a bench player.’
By Ryan Vrede, in Cape Town
190 Comments
31 Oct 2012, 15:51 pm
Yes Heyneke, Im sure you were all for a central contracting system when you were coach of the Bulls…yeah right.
Now you lament its non existence.
31 Oct 2012, 15:57 pm
Really do need a total restructure…..the player burn out and injury situation is over the top chronic…..
without a doubt the SA physche is still geared at the Province / Franchise first and Boks second.
Go for it Heyneke…..sort the structure out….all strength to you….
31 Oct 2012, 15:59 pm
@John Galt-1: Its just the heat that comes with the job, he forgets he wouldn’t the Bok coach today if the central contracting system was implemented 6 years ago, taking out Habana, FDP, Steyn, Spies, Wannenburg, Rossouw, Matfield and Botha.
Heyneke must play the cards he is dealt, just like all previous bok coaches
31 Oct 2012, 16:01 pm
@XhosaKid-3:
aha.
so we shouldn’t have a central contract system then?
31 Oct 2012, 16:04 pm
Deal with your player loss Heyneken.Getting your excuses in won’t be accepted by all decent SA’s beyond the boereworscurtain.If the job is to big for you just say so.
31 Oct 2012, 16:06 pm
The system is farked.
The Kiwis are dominating because of their systems and commitment to tthe national team.
Heyneke is doing the right thing to try and begin a change process.
All Bok coaches spoke about this problem endlessly through the last decade or so…..
Go for it Heyneke. things must change.
31 Oct 2012, 16:15 pm
As Guntie points out you guys, through your disliking of Meyer are missing the point he’s making which a very valid one. It needs to change and if he’s the first coach to get it done 2 kudoes and a half to him!
31 Oct 2012, 16:15 pm
Really Ryan? He laments the obstacle to dominance? You sound like a lyric writer for a Scandinavian doom metal band.
31 Oct 2012, 16:15 pm
@grant10-6: How some people can say Meyer is making excuses by pointing out the bleeding obvious is beyond me. Why should things stay the same. What utter small-minded idiocy.
Agreed 1000%.
31 Oct 2012, 16:16 pm
@katman-8: Forgive him, for he knows not what he does
31 Oct 2012, 16:17 pm
jake complained, he was told to shufthefuck up and coach, div complained he was told to pipedown and coach if he can, now heyneke is whingeing and the murmurs of “ek stem saam” are growing larger
remember, as Tacitus always says. you centralise the players contracts, SARU can take Eben from WP to EP, Paul Jordaan to the Bulls at their whim…
look at john kirwan crying that nonu promised he would come back but nonu is a highlander now hehehe.
31 Oct 2012, 16:18 pm
All coaches had to play with the same deck of cards.Heyneke shouldn’t now that he has been shown up as the false messiah,come with this lamentable rubbish.Meyer has weak mentality as proven with his stint at Leicester.He blames everybody else for his shortcomings as a top coach,except himself.We don’t have central contracts HM,so get on your horse and go out there and win every test as you promised us.Oops,I see that you already have broken that promise.Lose your first two games ,Meyer,on this tour and I hope you will be recalled back to SA to explain yourself.
31 Oct 2012, 16:20 pm
Ya Transie but I honestly think its purely down to how much worse it’s gotten with the schedule.
So long as they leave Eben out of it I’m ok
31 Oct 2012, 16:22 pm
@grant10-2:
I personally think they need to explore this ‘burn out’ vs ‘injury’ scenario and which player is actually suffering from what.
There is no doubt that the likes of Bekker was overplayed by Province and need to be managed better.
Bissies injury? Could have happened if he was playing for anyone, regardless of cantractual structure. It was a freak injury where he was the dummy runner and some guy tackled him. Simple.
There was no ‘player fatigue’ involved, no tired and overplayed stress related injury.
Burger? Same as above. His injury happened in the first few weeks of the S15 FFS. No way was it a fatigue related injury.
The only extra rugby our boys play is in the CC. Outside of that domestic competition, the ABs play exaclty the same amount of Rugby during the year.
Depth needs to be built by each franchise and utilised properly during the S15.
31 Oct 2012, 16:22 pm
@Transformation-11:
should we have the system or not?
31 Oct 2012, 16:25 pm
@John Galt-14: Player management and timings are handled a helluva lot smarter by the Kiwis.
@wnbb-12: Your whinging about Meyer correctly wanting to change the status quo doesn’t alter reality.
31 Oct 2012, 16:26 pm
@gunther-15: Yes. We are being completely and utterly farking stupid.
31 Oct 2012, 16:28 pm
Someone in SARU needs to grow a pair of balls and enforce a contracting system similar to the Kiwis.
“Someone in SARU” – whoosh. Good luck Meyer. You’re going to need it to make the necessary a reality.
31 Oct 2012, 16:29 pm
Unless there is data available that link the injuries by players to the minutes or matches played per player per season we cannot really make a comparative analysis between SA, NZ and Aus. To me it seems as if the Australians play less often the rest but still have relatively the most injuries.
31 Oct 2012, 16:31 pm
For a central contracting system to work you need all the unions to buy into the idea…..which i guarantee you they will not. SA has always shown loyalty to Provinces first and the National team comes second. Its a mentality thing. Nzlanders were programmed from a young age already that the Black jersey comes first and this is reflected in the system that they use. We on the udder hand grew up with provincial rivalry and it reflects the system we use. Nothing will change as long as that mentality is there of provinces before country.
31 Oct 2012, 16:32 pm
Mallet has been outspoken about this issue as well…..
Time to re evaluate….or just contininue to lag further and further behind imo…
31 Oct 2012, 16:35 pm
Brendan Venter as well…..
But we dont farken listen…..bulle this and Haaie that…weeepeeeee…..
And our Boks get on there moer every second weekend.
31 Oct 2012, 16:38 pm
@gunther-15: let’s have it, we can move ALL the players cheeky wants to PE
31 Oct 2012, 16:40 pm
@John Galt-14: Burger was injured in the FIRST game against the canes, two players mowed him down, one went for the legs, the other for his upper body!
31 Oct 2012, 16:44 pm
I am totally against a system like that.No national union should own a player at the expense of a provincial union who invested time and truck load of money on such a player.This is typical Bulls propaganda.They have been trying to establish a total monopoly on signing all available young talent in this country.Giving Meyer total control of WP talent like Etzebeth,Kolisi etc etc will only benefit one party.
31 Oct 2012, 16:45 pm
@Transformation-23:
yes
or
no
31 Oct 2012, 16:46 pm
@Transformation-23:
Edfarkingzakery.
Can you imagine the squealing if suddenly some politically connected coach miraculously starts signing all the good players.
Which is a real possibility here.
We all assume that SARU will be completely independant and act at arms length in all cases. Which cant be gauranteed.
31 Oct 2012, 16:49 pm
Lessons to be learned is having more faith in a squad system…..Brendan Venter explained how Saracens plan there season so that players know they got 3 games then a 2 week conditioning type program…..obviously things vary as things happen out of control…..but there is total faith in the playing schedules per player.
Look how WP fared by embracing the younger squad……I think we are so scared of losing we are not prepared to change.
But we have too…..
31 Oct 2012, 16:56 pm
@grant10-28: I am so glad to see you have come out of hiding. Took a miracle last weekend, but you’re back !
Little boy got his sweety ?
31 Oct 2012, 16:58 pm
burgers was an intentionally targeted injury.
text book stuff.
like the one on o’driscoll.
31 Oct 2012, 16:58 pm
Central player contracting may solve part of the problem but I also suspect there are other factors which lead to the kind of player attrition we see. Namely our bish bash, moer en donner playing style which really is about pulverizing your opponents rather than subduing them with superior technique, speed and skills.HM’s love of players like Jacque Potgieter (who is really the kind of player who is a danger to his own players as well) and other “big strong boys” does not help the player attrition level in my view. Our technique and skills are poor compared to alot of rugby playing nations. So HM, no use crying player contracting when you do not use what you have correctly as we will still lose even with a full strength team. What good will that experienced backline be if nobody is showing them new things they can do? Just take a leaf out of Allistair Coetzee’s book and change your philosophy on the game a bit (Mallet advised him and Fleckie to not rely on Neinabers defensive playing philosophy too much). Allistar (and Jake in his 1st year) showed that any professional player new or old can learn quickly and adapt to a playing philosohpy and team culture that has an edge over what other coaches are doing. Be a better coach and things can happen for you…an d maybe SARU will listen too! Fair deal?
31 Oct 2012, 17:00 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-30: Schalk Burger is done. Do you really think he is head and shoulders better than the talent we have coming through right now ?
31 Oct 2012, 17:02 pm
Kak kak kak.
The problem is this bloated, joke of a Super Rugby Comp. Not the Currie Cup.
And I like ‘hating’ the Bulls and WP. It’s what makes SA Rugby great.
We can and should have the best of both worlds, we just sold our souls to the Aussies and the Kiwis, that’s all.
There is no reason why the Boks can’t be the best, and we can still have our Boks in the Currie Cup.
I repeat, this 4-5 month Super Rugby comp is the problem.
31 Oct 2012, 17:03 pm
Who’s gonna tell Schalk, Siya, Eben, Duane and the ginger that they have to move to Pretoria? SARU personnel will have to draw straws for that….as it’s one mightfuckingscary task, which might meet with some resistance…
31 Oct 2012, 17:04 pm
@Dusky-32: Schalk will be back,have no fear,he will be back bigger and better and larger than life than before,of that I have no doubt.
31 Oct 2012, 17:06 pm
@londonshark-33: Yep,pure greed as always…
31 Oct 2012, 17:09 pm
“My strength has always been to change flawed systems…”
I thought your strebgth was to coach out of form players back into form.
“If we want to win consistently, not just one or two here and there, we have to look at the systems going forward.”
While you’re working on getting the system fixed, maybe you should also work on your selection of the team in order for us to win consistently. At least that is something that YOU have control over right now.
“If you consider that Fourie du Preez and Jaque Fourie weren’t available, and Frans Steyn and Bryan Habana were injured recently, if I had all those players fit…”
They are not available. Get over it. Work with w hat you have. What kind of message are you sending to your incumbent SH and out side centers with comments like that?
“I’d love to have Bakkies involved because I think he has two or three years left in him at Test level,”
Two or three years of Bakkies and then bring in a new lock in the year of the RWC. Is that what you are saying? Why did you not select him for this tour then? It is the IRB international window period and there would’ve been nothing standing in his way to join the Boks.
This coach is just a joke.
31 Oct 2012, 17:10 pm
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-34:
. Schalkie will moer them.
31 Oct 2012, 17:13 pm
Maybe Heyneke should concern him more with rectifying his kuk blue bull coaching methods than worrying about central contracts.I see Rudie on RT is also in agreement regarding this skop en jaag kuk.
31 Oct 2012, 17:14 pm
@grant10-28:
How will this central contracting work exactly?
Who will identify the players to be contracted? The coach or a selection comittee?
Do you only contract your core national players centrally or your fringe national players as well?
How many would be contracted?
31 Oct 2012, 17:14 pm
@nama1-37: Good points all,it seems to be the coach may be losing the plot already grasping at straws and making up excuses before the time.I’ve never seen anyone as tightly wound as this coach in an interview,all he can talk about is letting the country down wether he’s winning or losing,and he looks as if he is about to have a massive brain ****.
31 Oct 2012, 17:16 pm
@Dusky-32:
i’m just clarifying the point around burger’s injury.
no type of contracting system in the world can prrotect against dirty minded kiwis.
31 Oct 2012, 17:18 pm
personally i agree that we need to reevaluate and change the structures we operate under as and where necessary. time and things change, this is the nature of the world.
31 Oct 2012, 17:18 pm
out for now
later
31 Oct 2012, 17:21 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-43: Yeah well,how’s that hope and change working out for Obama?
31 Oct 2012, 17:29 pm
@wnbb-38: I can already see the little central contracting questionaire SARU sends out to the country’s top 150 players.
First question:
1. Please list (in order of preference) which franchise/s you would like to be considered for
There will be 146 wannabe Stormers.
(Greyling, Styen and Spies will remain true to the Bulls. And Keegan Daniel will want to be close to his adoring fans, so he’ll want to stick it out in Durban)
31 Oct 2012, 17:33 pm
HM please understand that you are the national coach! That means you can pick any player that holds a South African passport… Whether they’re in Africa, Europe or Asia.
Jake White and PDV both managed to be number one in the world, without a central contracting system. By all accounts, they didn’t have any of your “strength”.
Now deal with it and get on with your job! Or get out!
31 Oct 2012, 17:38 pm
And this old excuse that we “actually” don’t kick as much as other teams like NZ and Aus is so brain dead. Does he still not get that we kick away good ball when in attacking positions? The good teams don’t kick the ball when there is an overlap FFS – http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/Heyneke-Meyer-I-take-errors-on-chin-20121031
Really, you just cannot look at stats in this way (they kicked more than us) and make deductions as a proffessional coach. When did they kick. Why did they kick..why and when do we kick. Should we still be doing so when in certain situations?C’mon HM please man..c’mon!
31 Oct 2012, 17:52 pm
**** me.
The level of absolute ******* stupidity of the average SA rugby supporter never seizes to amaze me.
I have said this for 5 years now and nothing has changed – SA supporters are getting exactly what they deserve because of their short-sighted ignorance.
31 Oct 2012, 18:06 pm
Stoopid is as stoopid does!
31 Oct 2012, 18:08 pm
obviously a central contracting system would be best for sa rugby… I think that’s a bit of a no-brainer…
however…
what concerns me is it seems to me that haymaker is deliberately obfuscating several separate issues…
firstly… as alluded to by several bloggers… the injuries have little to do with whether a contract is provincially or nationally based…
secondly… the fatigue/long season factor falls flat when we remember most of the new zealand players play a similar amount of rugby as our players…
thirdly… the number of experienced players available has absolutely nothing to do with provincial or national contracting… it has everything to do with selection… haymaker could pick some more experienced players IF he so chose… but he ignores guys like juan, gio and patrick or even butch (who still has some bok games to offer as he did really well in some games for the ‘whats’.. (katman that’s for you…
) and instead picks guys like johan, jj, jaco and raymond… all who, IMO, need a season or two more in super rugby before they become genuine consistently effective bok contenders…
finally… if this is honestly what haymaker thinks… why has he not been preaching/pushing this agenda from the time he was first appointed…? when he was appointed he spoke of winning every game and not focusing on world cups… with not a mention of world cups… yet last week he began to speak of developing players for the world cup… and now a ‘tough’ tour is in apparently suddenly jeopardy because of contracts…?
so while I agree with haymaker about the necessity of central contracts… I disagree with his timing and reasoning… in his short tenure as top bok his track record for saying one thing and doing another has made a skeptic of me (who was wholeheartedly behind him when he was appointed)… and I feel he has simply rolled this old chestnut out of the closet as a cloaking device to shield him from any future potential failure… what this shows me is that, sadly, haymaker is already thinking too much job preservation instead of confidently selecting and playing his team believing they will win and therefore job preservation becomes moot…
would haymaker be talking about central contracts if his early win/loss record was better…? I don’t think so…
however… I will still fully support haymaker and will always be 1000 per cent behind the Bokke… so really hope we sweep the brits clean…
go Bokke!!
just wish heymaker would be more consistent with what he says… what he means… and what he does…
31 Oct 2012, 18:11 pm
scuse the bad editing…
31 Oct 2012, 18:22 pm
@ufo-51: Yeah,like I said,he seems to be coming up with excuses before the fact,not a good sign at all.
31 Oct 2012, 18:29 pm
@Superbru-53:
sadly and worryingly…
he does make it harder than it needs to be to get the supporters on his side…
31 Oct 2012, 18:38 pm
@ufo-51:
First point – Injury has little to do with whether a contract is centrally (controlled by Bok coach) or provincially (controlled by union/club coach) based? Whoever controls the contract controls the management of the player, amount of rugby played, conditioning and rehab.
Second point – NZ players play as much rugby as SA players? Simply not true. I did an exercise with Morne Steyn v Dan Carter a couple of weeks back which throws that theory straight out of the water – so unless someone can come up with actual statistics of NZ players playing more or equal rugby than their Bok elite counterparts it is simply a fact sucked out of people’s thumbs.
Third point – There are a lot of experienced players around. Experienced players does not mean class players however good enough for test rugby. Brok Harris has about 5 Super Rugby seasons behind him – is he Bok quality? Would you pick him? Also, selecting players is about combinations and whether a selection compliments a combination or disrupts it.
On your final point, I cannot speak for Meyer. But I can say to you that me, and many other folks have said for many years that NOTHING will change in SA Rugby unless we change how we operate. No coach short of god himself will make the Boks the best team in the world consistently if we do not change how we do things.
31 Oct 2012, 18:51 pm
Have to say I am impressed with his phisosophy while remaining cyncical that vested interests will prevent him getting it donw. Tragedy to have som many players inevitably out from such a overdone routine.
31 Oct 2012, 19:05 pm
@PissAnt-55:
With all respect the exercise that you have done comparing the number of games of only ONE NZ player to ONE SA player does not really prove anything. Besides the fact that the sample is far too small Carter is also not a good example to use as he has missed a lot of rugby over the last few seasons because of a number of injuries.
How do you explain the fact that so many Australians are injured at the moment relative to NZ/South Africans as Australian players certainly play less top level rugby (no provincial competition) in comparison to the other 2 countries?
31 Oct 2012, 19:06 pm
@Superbru-35: For the sake of SA rugby – I hope you are right !
31 Oct 2012, 19:08 pm
@PissAnt-49:
Nothing to do with the fans.
SARU arranged and approved a Super 15 that doesn’t allow rest or a proper Currie Cup.
Greed.
The fans had nothing to do with. A Super 12, with a short full strength Currie Cup would allow our Boks rest.
If there’s ever a time for them to rest, it’s on the EOYT.
31 Oct 2012, 19:10 pm
@Robzim-57:
Spot on.
31 Oct 2012, 19:15 pm
@PissAnt-55:
hey pa… how you doing Bud…?
first and second points… you looked at one player from each country… carter has been injured and rested… morne has hardly ever been injured and has been played into an uncomfortably numb stupor… so I believe your exercise was floored by only comparing one player from each country and using those two particular players…
you missed the most important word in my point… I said MOST nz players play similar numbers of games… of course their are exceptions… i belive you compared the exceptions… for your exercise to be valid you would need to compare MOST nz and sa players and not simply pick a single position comparison that proves your pre-established point of view…
third point… yes in fact… I would have brok harris in the bok mix…
people ridicule him because he’s not the archetypal mean brash prop (and because he plays for province) harris has got a raw deal from people who suck facts out of their thumbs too…
in 2010 when bekker and elstadt were fit… the stormers scrum dominated every scrum they played against… however… people only choose to remember the one game against the crusaders when both bekker and elstadt were carrying season-ending injuries… and the stormers got consequently monstered… with the bok players around him harris would be as effective… if not more so… than the other tightheads…
but with only 10 or so scrums per game harris trumps virtually all saffa props in the tightloose and loose and he has a higher workrate than all our other props except coenie oosthuizen… harris doesn’t shirk the tough stuff and tackles his heart out and… more importantly… makes the effort to get into the position to tackle his heart out… and gives away very few penalties…
yeah… I now it’s not cool to back harris… but his stats are generally way better than his peers… moneyball was about picking players who made first base… so I’d rather pick a prop who holds his own in scrums… but makes more tackles and misses fewer tackles than any of his competitors… he won’t let you down… just about every other prop will miss that vital tackle at the most inopportune time… harris is more likely to make it… in the lions match against the crusaders at ellis park pat cilliers didn’t make a single tackle in the entire game… but he is everyone’s darling…? go figure…
final point… yes I know you’ve been hammering that chestnut forever pa… and I agree with you every single time… point im making about haymaker is why is he putting this forward now… he certainly didn’t make a big deal of it when he was appointed… he laid out how he was going to move the bok cause forward… why didn’t he say “I will also work on motivating and implementing a central contracting system to ensure the bok cause for rest of, and beyond, my tenure as coach… because it is SO important to the cause…”
so if he can change things I will be happy for him and the boks and the fans… but right now I think heymaker is simply chucking out red herrings so that the vultures gobble them up and leave him alone…
31 Oct 2012, 19:16 pm
@Superbru-45:
ironically an appropriate analogy to liken the bok coach to the president of the US. both are really powerless to effect any major strucural changes easily and for the most part are beholden to various underlying power groups with differing agendas and who in fact wield far more power in matters regarding the national body than they do.
@PissAnt-49:
its like a sporting version of groundhog day, playing out everyday for each and every sa rugby supporter, player, administrator, stakeholder.
31 Oct 2012, 19:16 pm
@Robzim-57:
exactly rob… was writing my response while you posted that…
31 Oct 2012, 19:24 pm
@Robzim-57: @ufo-61:
I am good and you bud?
I did the exercise one those two players because the stats were easy to find. I stand by my point in my post, if anyone presents statistics that proves this theory I will be more than happy to stand back and accept the point that its hogwash.
There are many references to articles in recent years which shows that the NZ All Black coaches plays an active, if not dominating role in the management of players and the amount of rugby they play without even going to statistics.
@londonshark-59:
You are preaching to the converted. My issue is with ‘fans’ saying these points Meyer makes are excuses. The problem is our systems, plain and simple, no matter the coach – we will have these problems. And those systems needs to be addressed by SA Rugby.
31 Oct 2012, 19:33 pm
@PissAnt-64:
hehehe…
mexican standoff then…? i just don’t have the time (or the stats that you get) to do such an exercise…
what i do know is that when watching the nz comp… i would see just about all the all black players peppered through the provinces they play for… while our currie cup games were springbok-lite affairs…
so… not scientific statistically-based facts no… but acceptable anecdotal evidence giving credible weight to the debate… IMO of course…
31 Oct 2012, 19:46 pm
so bakkies
any proof of your assertion that “Burger” was deliberately taken out by filthy cheating kiwis?
what a joke.
provide proof or STFU…
31 Oct 2012, 19:51 pm
HM: Requiem for a Dream
31 Oct 2012, 19:52 pm
@poppa69-66:
you have only to look at the video evidence of the tackle itself and take into account kiwi teams well known modus operandi of targeting the leaders/captains/key players of their respective opponents to see that this was indeed the case, pops.
31 Oct 2012, 19:56 pm
brian o’driscoll = team captain
john smit = team captain
schalk burger = team captain
this is standard fair pops… why the sudden interest..?
31 Oct 2012, 20:03 pm
Hayemaker? Nee fok, Frikkie.
Give yourself a poesklap.
31 Oct 2012, 20:06 pm
@ufo-65:
Nope, no mexican stand off
I can quote and post you 10 articles right now that highlights elite AB players managed and rested.
As for statistical facts, it takes time, but since the idea of SA and NZ players playing the same amount of game time I have at least one exercise that disproves this and volumes of articles and references that suggest this.
For either theory to be proven beyond doubt I will at least expect one exercise done that disproves my take on the matter to be tempted to do a more in-depth analysis.
31 Oct 2012, 20:15 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-62: Well said,Bakkies.You can be sensible if you try a little!
31 Oct 2012, 20:18 pm
@PissAnt-71:
OK, I have found the evidence for you. Richie McCaw has played more matches since the start of superrugby 2012 than Schalk Burger and Juan Smith together. It proves that the Boks are more rested
31 Oct 2012, 20:23 pm
@Robzim-73:
hehe….. so did Jerome Kaino
31 Oct 2012, 20:29 pm
Bakkies
like Greyling on McCaw
Le roux on Fitzpatrick.
I see you mentio Ed to another blogger something about cleaning up your own backyard first.
but continue with your rant. it’s a wonderful safety net to explain away any losses your team has. bravo
31 Oct 2012, 20:31 pm
Bakkies.
still no proof? just your opinion on a tackle. please highlight for me just when exactly you see the intent change from a tackle to injure someone in tht players thought process
this should be good.
31 Oct 2012, 20:32 pm
@poppa69-75:
And may I add Poppa the cowardly blow from behind on Ab captain Andy Dalton in 86 from whats his name.
31 Oct 2012, 20:35 pm
@Te Rangatira-77: Burger Geldenhuys. Much prefered the one Gert Smal dished out to Gary Knight.
31 Oct 2012, 20:37 pm
was it geldenhuys ?
yep Te Rangi, it’s only us kiwis who do that though, these examples we’ve shown were just the totality of biased television producers doctoring the broadcast. to paint saffa as thugs and every bit as cynical as NZ rugby.
31 Oct 2012, 20:41 pm
@trupisero-78:
Kia ora Trups, we here in Nz could only watch that tour on video,yes remember Geldenhuys and the Cape game with Victor Simpson and Bill Osbourne chasing some dude around the field looking for retribution……..
31 Oct 2012, 20:45 pm
@PissAnt-55: How about you increase your sample with the following comparisons and using data from 2007-2011
Mealamu vs Bismarck& Smit ( combined)
Ma’Nonu vs JDV/Frans Steyn
Tony Woodcock vs Beast
Cory Jane vs Any Springbok Fullback since 2007
I suspect your conclusion may be vastly different
31 Oct 2012, 20:46 pm
@PissAnt-71:
okay… “10 articles right now” are simply opinions written by writers trying to make a point… this is not what is known as scientific or empirical study…
basing your theory on just two players in one position is hardly what would be called overwhelming evidence… a single example or experiment is quite simply not enough to prove anything scientifically… it wouldn’t take too much to pick two other players in isolation to counter your point… but that’s not going to prove anything either…
as much as i respect you i don’t believe we can call this myth busted or confirmed until the exercise is conducted analyzing the majority of the boks and blacks players…
31 Oct 2012, 20:46 pm
@wnbb-72:
if that’s supposed to be a compliment, it just doesn’t feel right
@poppa69-75:
really ridiculous comparative examples, pops.
1. greyling reacted in frustration to something macwaw did and in no way even hurt him, but never the less was quite rightly punished and appropriately so (no intetional targeting).
2. the le roux incident happened 18 years ago during the ameture era and not only was he sacked and sent home immediately thereafter by the springbok management while still on tour he also never ever played a test for the boks again. and just to be clear, his entire test career spanned 1 and a half months and comprised three tests (he was dealt with severly by the bok management/saru).
so all you do here is prove the difference between us saffa’s and you. and dont think the rest of the world views you any better.
now explain to me just exactly how much the nz players involved were punished..?.. (dont answer it)
31 Oct 2012, 20:46 pm
@Te Rangatira-80: Hahaha…those were the days
31 Oct 2012, 20:49 pm
@poppa69-79:
We know Pops that the Abs are no choir boys especially in the amateur days, remember Higginson,he looked like he was a member of the Waffel SS,a dirty SoB, we can find them throughout the pages of history in every team.
31 Oct 2012, 20:50 pm
@poppa69-76:
have you even seen the tackle in question?
tell me how a player follows through with bending someone’s leg in that manner without there being any intent to hurt?
was he playing the ball?
keep reaching, boet
31 Oct 2012, 20:56 pm
@XhosaKid-81:
I await your analysis in anticipation.
@ufo-82:
I await any counter to my one example with much eagerness! I chose the most obvious and easiest example perhaps but at least I have one – I am yet to see a counter!
@Robzim-73:
If Juan rest any longer we can declare him clinically deceased!
31 Oct 2012, 20:56 pm
I am off folks, later.
31 Oct 2012, 20:58 pm
@poppa69-75:
wouldn’t you agree that ET is probably far more likely to experience a rodney king type ‘VERY RACIALISED’ reckoning of sorts if he were to go traipsing around a wealthy (leaning to the right) middle class, gated american community’s neighbourhood rather than any fancy sort of ‘NON RACIALISED’ experience if he were to do so at two in the morning?
31 Oct 2012, 20:58 pm
@ufo-82: Don’t worry, I have just done a Mealamu vs Bismarck & Smit who were sharing duties whilst Kev was running the show for the Blues & AB, even Andrew Hore’s game time looks impressive. PA is being anecdotal at best.
31 Oct 2012, 21:05 pm
sorry pa… damn 3g playing up…
been trying to post…….
anyway pa… gotta go now…
one last point…
very cool to debate/chat about rugby without any vitriol, insults or rants…
very cool…!
31 Oct 2012, 21:07 pm
@XhosaKid-90:
yeah XKid… i’m with you…
but he’s right… we need to put up stats to show him otherwise…
anyway before i lose 3g again…
cheers
31 Oct 2012, 21:10 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-83: greyling in frustration?
he came from 3 metres away to join the ruck and had nothing but intent to hurt mccaw..
so tell me again how you know with any certainty the intent was to hurt burger? you cant because only the player involved knows the truth.. or can you read minds watching a tv replay?
but keep reaching
31 Oct 2012, 21:17 pm
@XhosaKid-90:
Mate how can you compare one guy against two other guys ‘sharing’?
Remember, this analysis goes along 3 competitions or levels, CC, SR and tests.
I will be very happy to concede the point if actual stats are produced of minutes played by players in a single season, but preferably over 2 or 3.
If I have time, I will look at hooker, lock, loosie and fullback of the elite players in each country (AB’s and Springboks) across these levels, but no promises, its a **** load of data to analyze.
31 Oct 2012, 21:20 pm
@poppa69-93:
make believe all you want but every reasonable person will agree that greyling’s act was as a response to something macaw was doing. its probably even correct to say that had macaw not been doing what he was (which was to cheat outright and professionally) he never ever would have been hit with a stiff arm/elbow by greyling.
this was a responsive reaction to willful provocation and unlawful behaviour.
what were the nz players reacting to, burger holding the ball?
31 Oct 2012, 21:32 pm
@ufo-92: @XhosaKid-90:
Actually, let’s make this a fun project.
Whoever wants to play along, 10 brains is always better than one in any event.
If anyone has time and is willing to do some analysis let’s lay down some ground rules to which we all agree and let’s make this a project.
The idea; compare playing minutes between the elite players of the Boks v the AB’s.
My suggestion for ground rules:
* You can compare any players in the 6 main combos in rugby – front row, locks, loosies, halfbacks, centres, back three.
* Players has to be the elite players in each country – meaning if fit, natural first choice for their Super Rugby franchise AND national team.
* We compare players over a two-season period to be fair – because a player going into his 3rd season injury free compared to a player into his first won’t give you an accurate result.
We might be limited to only 3 or 4 players given this criteria but at least we will have 3 or 4 examples.
I might make this a project in the next week or 3.
But till then, I am out.
Have a good night all.
31 Oct 2012, 21:33 pm
My best bok team:
15 Francois Steyn
14 JP Pietersen
13 Jaque Fourie
12 Jean De Villiers
11 Bryan Habana
10 Johan Goosen
9 Fourie Du Preez
8 Duane Vermeulen
7 Schalk Burger
6 Francois Louw
5 Andries Bekker
4 Eben Etzebeth
3 Brian Mujati
2 Bismark Du Plessis
1 Tendai Mtawarira
16 Schalk Brits
17 CJ Van Der Linde
18 Willem Alberts
19 Siya Kolisi
20 Ruan Pienaar
21 Patrick Lambie
22 Juan De Jongh
23 Chilliboy Ralepelle
24 Jannie Du Plessis
25 Juandre Kruger
26 Marcell Coetzee
27 Francois Hougaard
28 Elton Jantjes
29 Gio Aplon
30 Jaco Taute
31 Oct 2012, 21:35 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-30:
Well Burger is weak then.
McCaw gets targetted by cheap shots and dirty play every game….Intentionally targeted…. coached even by opposing teams.
Yet how many times have you seen him go off after another late hit,eye gouge or knees to the head.
McCaw is tougher than anything SA has to offer and they try their best to injure him.
Bakkies you of all people should know. Your #1 hero was a dirty scum that went out to hurt so suck it up. He was called an enforcer so he was allowed to play dirty.
Looks like Burger was subjected to another teams enforcer.
31 Oct 2012, 21:37 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-95:
Ahh Houston ….so what you’re saying is that the fabled Richie deserved the flying forearm for unlawful behaviour at the breakdown…..wilful provacation at a stretch. Interesting analysis. Greyling was basically baited into a mind explosion which was one of the reasons Bokke lost that game. The Legend of Richie grows with every passing year,his mind games with the opposition causing them to lose the plot puts him in the upper echelon of elite players.
31 Oct 2012, 21:37 pm
@Hurricane-98:
He gets targeted by NZ teams even, Reunion had a nice feature on this a week ago. Even his own countrymen are sick of his ****!
31 Oct 2012, 21:37 pm
Okay but now I am gone, **** tired, cheers.
31 Oct 2012, 21:43 pm
@PissAnt-100:
OH did they interview all his countrymen did they?
Stop making silly things up.
Point is he is targeted. Bakkies is crying over one shot on Burger. I have put things right.
31 Oct 2012, 21:43 pm
@PissAnt-96: I’m in, so far I can say between 2007-2012 Kevin Mealamu has played 59 tests, starting 34 of them against Bismarck’s 46 tests with 29 starts, meaning Bismarck has been managed better than old man Kev, for the same period, Hore has 54 tests with 28 starts vs Smit’s 48 with 45 starts.
Super rugby stats will strengthen my argument even further taking into account that Bismarck and Smit shared duties at SR & CC level as opposed to Kev and Hore who are first choice hookers at SR level. I hereby dispute your statement, even more, Henry was vilified for weakening SR sides and losing to France in 2007, which put an end to withdrawing of players in the SR from 2008 until 2012
31 Oct 2012, 21:44 pm
@PissAnt-100:
Nz teams like every other team out there in the stratosphere know they must take it to Richie and negate his mastery of the game to overcome Abs or Crusaders….that is RESPECT….
31 Oct 2012, 21:47 pm
@Te Rangatira-99:
It seems in SA that if you see a player with hands in ruck you can take there head off and you will be let off by fans.
I am sure the people of SA with a bit of sanity see it different to Bakkies.
31 Oct 2012, 21:55 pm
@Hurricane-105:
I like Houston cause he brings something different to the table and seems a stand up guy…….even if he is wrong on this one
31 Oct 2012, 22:02 pm
@XhosaKid-103: to substantiate, we can assume a start = 55mins, sub = 25mins, that will mean
Kev = 1870mins + 625mins
Bismarck = 1595mins + 425mins
Hore = 1540mins + 650mins
Smit = 2475mins + 75mins
31 Oct 2012, 22:05 pm
@Hurricane-98:
big difference in how we go about trying to police cheating compared to you guys.
for us there is no intention to seriously hurt or maim the player cheating but only to forcefully check his behaviour.
and this only because the said players would in fact have been busy cheating.
whereas you people go out with the intention to hurt and maim key opposition players if it helps your objective.
@Te Rangatira-99:
no mention of the nz players actions on burger then
thought as much…
31 Oct 2012, 22:09 pm
@Te Rangatira-106:
cheers TR, and the same to you.
i know we will never agree to much but it doesn’t mean we cant engage one another.
to my mind you are a decent stand up guy too.
31 Oct 2012, 22:10 pm
and my leaving you out does not mean i dislike you, hurri.
(i know how precious you kiwis can be)
31 Oct 2012, 22:12 pm
ok, i’m off to bed
cheers folks
31 Oct 2012, 22:17 pm
HM himself is an obstacle to dominance…I mean Marco Wentzel? While he’s at it he can sommer bring back Johan Roets to replace Kirchner and Casper Steyn (aka die Spook van Loftus) to cover for Jantjies/Lambie.
31 Oct 2012, 22:20 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-108:
well I put Burger up there with Richie…..you have to stop him from dominating in a legal way of course but sometimes things may go to far and then you may pay the price…..anyways can’t remember that incident…hehe
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-109:
Thanks Houston….one day I will get to Sa and visit you.
31 Oct 2012, 22:40 pm
hang on
Forcefully checking his behavior with a flying elbow?
on intention to seriously hurt or maim
you mean a flying forearm to a man llying prone on the ground is forcefully checking his behavior, yet tackling a player, with intent you have yet to prove, is paradoxically systematic removal of opposition captains?
it’s funny you mention BOD yet scoff at Le
Roux? didn’t realise there. was only a specific time frame.
as for Smit. he played almost the rest of that half before a groin injury. yep it was thorn dropping him on his backside that was targeting the captain.
classic
1 Nov 2012, 01:39 am
@Te Rangatira-106:
lol
He is different and a stand up…you have it right there
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-108:
You guys are not suppose to police cheats…the refs are.
So know we find out that SA want to police the game with elbows and eye gouging? That all now makes sense.
Looks like you missed the Bakkies tribute on you tube.
It is so funny, you see a couple of Bakkies running people over as he does once and a while but the majority of the video was elbows, shoulder charges, spear tackles, knees to people rib cage and a few other things. Yet you are bringing up a burger incident like it happens all the time to SA players lol.
@poppa69-114:
These guys are never happy. One minute they wanted Smit out, Thorn does them a favour and they complain.
1 Nov 2012, 04:22 am
Lamenting is no good Heyneke, you need to do something about central contracting and soon. With every loss that goes by your influence weakens.
1 Nov 2012, 04:24 am
Also, Botha is still better than Etsebeth but there’s no cast-iron reason why they can’t be in the same side.
1 Nov 2012, 06:19 am
@Te Rangatira-113: @Hurricane-115:
Quick question to you two, does central contracting in NZ actually means a player is told where he should play(team) or is it a case of the head coach being able to control when and in what position a player can/should play in a season?
Also, as PA suggested above, SA supporters get what they deserve. It is broken but half the people say stuff the Meyer because White and PDivvie had to do it? So we carry on with the flat tyre till when exactly?
1 Nov 2012, 06:27 am
@Big Hit-117:
Estebeth is the future and at this stage it would be better to invest in him than bring Bakkies back. Tell me something else, is Bakkies a 80 minute man these days or does he still only go for 60 minutes max?
1 Nov 2012, 07:23 am
@Te Rangatira-113:
cheers TR, will look forward to it
@poppa69-114:
no one condoned his actons, certainly not me… and quite rightly he was punished accordingly.
who’s scoffing at le roux? huh? again, so far off the mark its pointless talking to you. le roux was immedialtely dropped and never ever played for the boks again because of his actions… but you cant admit this part can you…. that we actually punish players who seek to injure opposition with malice… because you lot still have to clean yourselves up.
still waiting to hear what became of the nz transgressors… oh that’s right… there’s nothing to tell because its been stitched up as per kiwi usual.
@Hurricane-115:
we know where leaving the policing to refs gets us, dont we, hurri.
bakkies was hard but clean.
@Slartibartfast-119:
if you watch a few of his games at toulon you would see he’s putting in 80 min performances of note lately. granted it does seem as though he is being managed but so are a lot of other players in the toulon squad.
besides, why expect him to go the full 80 if we have a bench of 8..? the modern game requires standard substitutuions be made in a match as a matter of course.
my thinking is the boy is only 20 years old so why play him to pieces this earliy and young in his career if it can be avoided? bakkies would be a capable stand in for the 4 lock position in a career managed processed with the view to building and not breaking a world dominating prospect in the boy.
1 Nov 2012, 07:25 am
career managed processed = career managed process
1 Nov 2012, 07:26 am
breaking a world dominating prospect in the boy.= breaking a world dominating prospect, which the boy seems to be.
1 Nov 2012, 07:31 am
@Slartibartfast-118:
As I understand it. The NZRU only applies central contracting to the franchises and ABs. They don’t dictate who plays where but allow the franchises to nominate a 26 (I think) player squad. Then they can move players not nominated to other franchises who can use them. The advantage there is that young talented players get a chance of game time at SR level. After the SR season they’d return back to their provincial side.
1 Nov 2012, 07:39 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-120:
Thanks Bakkies, I don’t have an issue with him playing but was rather making a point to GH that Eben is the future.
@David-123:
Which makes perfect sense , the point is that saru won’t suddenly tell Schalk or whoever they now need to play for the Bulls…unless the Stormers did not want him or see him as part of their top 26.
1 Nov 2012, 07:57 am
@Slartibartfast-124:
It makes perfect sense. The NZ SR system is actually a form of AB trials which are regionally based. Much like we used to have. The NZRU decides which players they want to see, not the provinces or franchises. They also actively participate in selecting the franchise coaches, which SARU also has the right to do, but never has.
Note that it’s the NZRU, not just the AB coach who’s involved.
1 Nov 2012, 08:15 am
@Slartibartfast-124:
yes agreed, eben is the future.
1 Nov 2012, 08:23 am
Heyneke Meyer might just be one of the worst coaches the Springboks have had in the modern era. Now that I have that out of the way, let me start by saying that the myth of Springbok superiority in rugby has been grossly overstated for many years now.
It is true that the Springboks were once on par with New Zealand, but that was mostly 1900-1950, and 1967-1980, and with the exception of 1998 has been nowhere to be found in the professional era, which started post 1992.
Since 1992 the Springboks have won only 61.5% of their games, versus the 80.2% of the All Blacks, and the 64.9% of the Wallabies. And in that time we’ve had the following coaches:
1992: John Williams – P5 / W1 – Win Rate 20%
1993-1994: Ian McIntosh – P12 / W4 – Win Rate 33%
1994-1995: Kitch Christie – P14 / W14 – Win Rate 100%
1996: Andre Markgraaff – P13 / W8 – Win Rate 61%
1997: Carel du Plessis – P8 / W3 – Win Rate 37%
1997-1999: Nick Mallett – P38 / W27 – Win Rate 71%
2000-2001: Harry Viljoen – P15 / W8 – Win Rate 53%
2002-2003: Rudolph Straeuli – P23 / W12 – Win Rate 52%
2004-2007: Jake White – P54 / W36 – Win Rate 66%
2008-2011: Peter de Villiers – P48 / W30 – Win Rate 62%
2012: Heyneke Meyer – P9 / W4 – Win Rate 44%
As you can see, this is mostly a picture of mediocrity. It is generally accepted that, considering the number of games they were in charge for, Nick Mallet is the most successful rugby coach that South Africa has ever had, and Rudolph Straeuli the worst. So how does Heyneke Meyer compare to the coaches we’ve had since Nick Mallet? Badly, that’s how. Taking into account their first 9 games, here’s how the various coaches fared.
Nick Mallet – P9 / W9 – 100% Win rate
Rudolph Straeuli – P9 / W5 – 55.5% Win rate
Jake White – P9 / W7 – 77.7% Win rate
Pieter de Villiers – P9 / W5 – 55.5% Win rate
Heyneke Meyer – P9 / W4 – 44% Win Rate
But that’s not all; two of these coaches (Nick Mallet and Jake White) won the Tri Nations in their first year in charge as coach, and they did it while building teams almost from scratch. All of them had highlights in their first 9 tests. Mallet destroyed France 52-10 in Paris, Scotland 68-10, Ireland 33-0, Wales 96-13 and England 18-0.
Straeuli roughed up Argentina 49-29 and demolished Samoa 60-18. Jake White’s Boks bashed Ireland 31-17, Wales 53-18 and beat New Zealand in a very memorable and high scoring 40-26 game in Johannesburg. Pieter de Villiers gave us 26-0 against Italy, 63-9 against Argentina and beat New Zealand at home for the first time in nearly a decade.
What has Heyneke Meyer’s first 9 tests given us? The first time we failed to beat England since 2006, ending a 9 game winning streak against them. The first ever draw against Argentina. A humiliating 32-16 loss against New Zealand in our own back yard.
One good game against an already imploding Australian side. A 44% winning rate. Even Rudolph Straeuli, considered by many the worst coach we’ve ever had, outperformed Meyer.
This is incredibly sad for many reasons, but mostly because of the proud tradition that Springbok rugby used to have. See, while our dominance may have been overstated, it took New Zealand until 1996 to win their first series here. And until the end of 1999 the books were evenly balanced, both of us having won 24 games against the other. In 1937 the Springboks toured New Zealand and beat them 2-1 in a series in New Zealand.
In 1949 they toured South Africa and lost the series 4-0. As political unrest enveloped the country and we became more and more isolated the opportunities got less and results worse, but between 1967 and 1980 the Boks played the Blacks 8 times, winning 6 of the games and losing just 2. New Zealand vs South Africa was considered the unofficial world cup.
Unfortunately those days are gone, and with Meyer at the helm, we might not see them soon, if ever again. Meyer seems quite pleased with himself, always pointing out that his charges are supposedly improving. He said that the All Black’s running style of rugby only works in movies, called the Boks underdogs, and even points out that we’ve gone from number 4 to number 2 on the IRB rankings, like that was something he accomplished.
The Boks have 3 tests remaining for the year, and even if they win all 3 it will put Heyneke Meyer’s win rate at 58%. We can, therefore, already compare his first year with that of other coaches, and it would look as follows. I’ve only included coaches who coached more than 10 games in their first 12 months.
Kitch Christie – P12 / W12 – 100%
Andre Markgraaff – P13 / W8 – 61%
Nick Mallett – P13 / W13 – 100%
Harry Viljoen – P11 / W6 – 54.5%
Rudolph Straeuli – P11 / W5 – 45.5%
Jake White – P13 / W9 – 69.2%
Pieter de Villiers – P13 /W9 – 69.2%
Heyneke Meyer – P12 / W7 – 58.3%
Looked at it this way, Heyneke Meyer’s first year will likely be the 3rd worst in the modern era. Sub 60% win rates simply isn’t good enough for the Springboks, I’m sorry.
We need a coach that strives for excellence and recognizes South Africa’s proud history. One that wants to return to the days of yore when the All Blacks and Springboks were deadly enemies and it was the only game that mattered. Meyer is clearly not that man.
1 Nov 2012, 08:24 am
@trupisero-127: Copy & paste – I can’t type that long.
1 Nov 2012, 08:32 am
@trupisero-127:
a good boss who i loathed but respected enormously for his business/management ability had a few sayings whcih he lived/operated by.
one of them was: ‘never come into my office to present me with any problems, rather come into my office when you are ready to present me with the solutions needed, to those problems’.
1 Nov 2012, 08:41 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-120:
So eye gouging and elbows and late charges is the South African way then, thats what you are saying.
You are alone when you say bakkies was fair/clean
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyI1UQfT6K0
Pleanty of elbows, spear tackles and knees for you in here. Disgusting and you think he is fair
1 Nov 2012, 08:52 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-129: That how you got fired
@Hurricane-130: Morning Sandy.
1 Nov 2012, 08:59 am
@Hurricane-130:
you’re deflecting, hurri.
@trupisero-131:
no, i needed to grow so moved on.
1 Nov 2012, 09:11 am
@trupisero-131:
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-132:
So explain the link i just put up please.
1 Nov 2012, 09:19 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-132: Solution presented then
1 Nov 2012, 09:25 am
@trupisero-134:
Yep, he fell in love with Bakkies.
1 Nov 2012, 09:42 am
Te rangi @77
Mate, have a good look at the video of that game and you will see a cowardly Andy Haden smack burger geldenhyus from behind in a ruck. Burger gets up and smacks the first and closeby bloke to him, being dalton. Unlucky! You can even see the sniveling Haden looking back over his shoulder as he runs away and is then the first to come to Dalton’s aid when he sees the consequences of his cowardly punch! Dems da facts, so less of the bs labeling of the Boks. Dare I say a typical doos one eyed keeeewee comment!
1 Nov 2012, 10:00 am
@Hurricane-133:
selective camera angles, hurri.
how many hours of effort did it take the nz ministry of propaganda to put that little nugget together..?..
@trupisero-134:
lmga
@David-135:
chops
@whatever-136:
thank you.
1 Nov 2012, 10:20 am
bakkiies
so youve gone from a flying elbow is fine because its forcefully checking the guy on the field, to talk punishment, when my facts proved that SA target captains just as much as you perceive NZ to do..
still no proof conclusively that the tackle on burger was with intent to injure or maim?
dont bother responding bakkies, im sure it must damage your keyboard what with all the tears that spill from every post..
SA are angels huh?
1 Nov 2012, 10:37 am
The punch of Burger Geldenhuys on Dalton was the schweetist PK I ever did see on greenfields where the game played in heaven is played…
An absolute beaut…
1 Nov 2012, 10:38 am
Pity it was wasted on a rather soft Kiwi…
1 Nov 2012, 10:47 am
@Heavens Game-139:
Naw, it was a coward’s punch, from behind, Dalton did not see it coming and had no chance to take evasive action or to block it..
Best one i saw was from Gert Smal on Gary Knight, check the clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwvkJLRF5Uo
1 Nov 2012, 10:54 am
@Robzim-141: Smal’s was good, but Knight was fairly undamaged…
Naah, Geldenhuys right up there with Mendez on Dooley…
Glass jaw exposers…
1 Nov 2012, 11:04 am
@XhosaKid-103:
Thanks, interesting.
I think we can assume both John Smit and Keven was their respective teams first choice players?
But just a quick amendment from your figures there.
Firstly, forget 2012, Smit retired at 2011 so stats from 2007 to 2011 will read
John: 48 tests, 45 starts
Keven: 51 tests, 30 starts
Then if we apply you minutes played formula later on it will calculate to:
John: 2475 minutes (starts) plus 75 minutes (sub) total: 2550
Keven: 1650 minutes (starts) plus 525 minutes (sub) total: 2175
Difference: 375 minutes or 4.6 games.
Did I apply your formula correctly?
1 Nov 2012, 11:05 am
1970 AB Tour
“They beat us 9-8 in the second Test. It was the most horrible Test,” recalled Syd Nomis, for whom that defeat was a particularly bitter pill to swallow.
“I had teeth knocked out, Dawie (de Villiers) had nine stitches in his ear, Piston (van Wyk) had 12 stitches in his upper lip,” he recalled of the lengths (and depths) the teams went to in the second Test.
“I eventually lost six teeth. They transplanted some at the back with cement the next day. They lasted four and a half years before being rejected by my body. I had to put in a bridge because the teeth just crumbled,” said the engaging former utility back who turns 70 in November.
Nomis suffered the injury at the hands, er, make that elbow, of All Blacks fullback Fergie McCormick, who straight armed the speeding wing who was in hot pursuit of a kick.
“I had two weeks to sort out my teeth before the next Test and I had to wear a gum guard. I think I might have started the use of gum guards.
“There was a bit of revenge coming,” Nomis said of the third Test. “McCormick was made to suffer a little bit. He gave me a straight-arm elbow at Newlands and it wasn’t a nice thing. In the third Test he hit me again and my jaw went to one side. The two of us were fighting in front of the main stand and back then the ref didn’t come and stop things.
“Lofty (Nel) came up and stopped the whole thing. Fergie was a bit of a dirty player. He got hurt in that game and I don’t think he played another game on tour.”
1 Nov 2012, 11:07 am
@Heavens Game-142:
Best “local” punch i have seen this year was Jebb Sinclair on Jean Deysel.
Sweetly timed short right cross out of the boxing handbook by Angel(o) Dundee
I bet Jean heard the voices of Angels calling
1 Nov 2012, 11:07 am
@whatever-136:
Breaking a players jaw from from behind is all good in your eyes aye ………Whatever. Fukkeduptwit.
1 Nov 2012, 11:09 am
@David-144: Interesting stuff David.Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
1 Nov 2012, 11:11 am
@Robzim-141:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj839DQuMaI
1 Nov 2012, 11:14 am
@Te Rangatira-146: yep, him and the likes of HG too
you just know these two are the type who would glass someone..
admiring a cheap kinghit from behind
gutless cowards like the bloke who threw it..
1 Nov 2012, 11:14 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-137:
Camera angles??
hahaha i dont understand how you can say that rubbish.
You area fool.
Funny thing is, its a Bok supporter that put it up….. hahaha.
1 Nov 2012, 11:16 am
@Te Rangatira-146:
Dude, really what do you expect?
Whatever is a prize idiot and you nhave Bakkies there thanking him and saying all Bakkies elbows and high shot and spear tackles were due to camera angles. He was one sentence from blaming kiwis.
1 Nov 2012, 11:21 am
@Hurricane-151: that youtube clip of botha is sp damning..
notice all the little blokes he “stood up to”
thug, plain and simple, and to think he will go down as a bok legend really is indicative of the filthiest rugby playing nation on earth…outstripping the french is no mean feat by the way..
bakkies blames camera angles? what a knobkerrie..
1 Nov 2012, 11:27 am
@Robzim-145: WTF? Deysel got up and continued playing as if nothing happened…
T’was a dramatic dive to milk a card/penalty… Nothing more.
1 Nov 2012, 11:27 am
@Hurricane-151:
You know Hurri, we are all protective of our teams honour and reputation and an eye for an eye is all good when its man on man, who goes down first, but trying to defend cowardly punches from behind which caused serious injury and ended a players career is crapp.
1 Nov 2012, 11:32 am
@Heavens Game-153: No, I’m afraid he was genuinely sat down by the Canuk. The only drama there was real life drama.
1 Nov 2012, 11:35 am
@Heavens Game-153: K – A – K.
Deysel heard his ancestors talking to him for a few seconds there…..
1 Nov 2012, 11:44 am
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-156:
1 Nov 2012, 11:45 am
@katman-155: Maybe he was genuinely sat down by the Canuck – definitely from a place with a proud icehockey heritage of argie bargie, making him a man apart from the rest the Proud Capie Locals or wannabes in the rest of his team – but he also genuinely stood up afterward…brush himself off… no harm done…
And then carry on regardless…
Naa, WP local yokels definitely overrate their own hardness…
1 Nov 2012, 11:47 am
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-156: What do you know about ancestors, whitey mlungu wifey? uma uyakuluma insibi, qaphela… mhlawumbe uzonuka futhi…
1 Nov 2012, 11:48 am
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-156:
i wonder what they were saying?
‘i see dead mielies’… ‘kill all your cattle’…
‘m.onkey is five, devil is six’….
1 Nov 2012, 11:48 am
@Heavens Game-159: I know nothing. But ask Deysel, he was the one chatting to them for about 50 seconds.
1 Nov 2012, 11:50 am
@Heavens Game-159: substitute insibi for uthuvi and then thats about right…
1 Nov 2012, 11:51 am
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-161: Nope he wasn’t… Just a count out to yellow card… And it did work, innit?
1 Nov 2012, 11:52 am
“Heyneke Meyer has reiterated his call for a central contracting system as a means of making the Springboks the strongest force in the game”
The more this clown speaks the more of his cognitive acumen is revealed:
To whom did he dish out Springbok contracts?
Where are many of these contracted players today?
Who then, will get contracts in the future?
And I would like to qoute his own wordings: Once a Blue Bull, always a Blue Bull.
Thank you for your views HM, BUT no thank you.
1 Nov 2012, 11:55 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-160: If there were ancestors and they were saying stuff is probably would have been along the lines of – Hey Jean why hasn’t this team also got Pink jerseys… The fkker punches like he could be in Pink …
1 Nov 2012, 11:55 am
@Heavens Game-158: Ja, he’s an old school deysel engine. Hard to break.
1 Nov 2012, 11:56 am
@Heavens Game-163: Did it matter in the grander scheme of Currie Cup things?
1 Nov 2012, 11:59 am
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-167: Yes, because at the time it just seemed too easy… and it was… until the day of the final when the black swan happened…
1 Nov 2012, 12:00 pm
@katman-166: hehe
1 Nov 2012, 12:03 pm
In my opinion a lot of the current headaches are down to selection policies.
Of the currently available options he should be looking at certain aspects of players and play them according to their best position. Marco Wentzel brought in for 5 is an inspired choice I think and he may well become the Boks premier 5 option from what ive seen of him. he has a great running game and offloads well whilst doing all the lock basics very well. He is regarded as one of the best jumpers in the Premiereship. For one he has really got it right.
But these need to be looked at.
2. Why inlcude Chilliboy when Deon Fourie has outperformed him and has leadership abilities?
6. Marcell Coetzee´s repeated inclusion – from the outset I thought of him as someone who flies about and does the basics well but is largely ineffectual in terms of breaking the gainline in Alberts manner or stealing ball on the ground. He should be dropped from future Bok teams. Francois Louw, Siya Kolisi, Burger and Brussouw should all be seen as preferabble options though almost all are injured at present.
8. His continual inclusion of Pierre Spies before injury was worrying when we had players such as Ashley Johnson, Josh Strauss and Ryan Kankowski available. 8 is a problem position for us at present and I really think he should narrow down options to Vermeulen, Kankowski and Johnson
9. Francois Houghaard has never been a good 9 – ive said as much for years – now finally it seems that is recognized. Ruaan is good when he´s on form but he is hesistant, spend s alot of time looking up instead of getting on with it and can really mess up when he´s rattled. Not blooding players like Vermaak or some of the up and coming 9´s is going to be problematic as currently we do not have a dominant scrummie.
10. The continual drawn out circus of dragging Morne Steyn in when he is clearly still out of sorts is plain wrong. leave him to improve in next years Super Rugby or forever hit the road. Not looking at Lambie as a viable option at 10 till now has been shortsighted in the extreme.
12. Playing De Villiers at 12 is a major issue for me because he tends to kill all ball in that position – he seems to fare better at 13 but making him captain means that he has now become the new John Smit. When the reality is we have far better centres who should be playing and breaking open space for the wings. Currently the up and coming Jan Serfontein is a great prospect, F Steyn is our premier 12 and even Juan de Jongh makes a good option at 12.
13. Playing a tired de Villiers at 13 or bringing in taute on 13 when he has some brilliant talent available for the position really irks me. our premier option when he returns is obviously Jacques Fourie but Juan de Jongh, Paul Jordaan or even Lionel Mapoe make good options but I still think that 13 is the best position for Francois Houghaard – he is devastating in that position – instead he is now wasted on wing where he blows hot and cold. He has a great step and is a good defender making him a great fit for 13 but he isnt even considered for that position. In all the years ive watched him play he fared best at 13 for the Bulls.
15. Continual inclusion of the very tired and broing Zane Kirchener to me is problematic. Zane has performed well when needing to finish off tries but on the counter attack he is utterly lame – when one has the likes of Israel Dagg and Kurtley beale who are both incredibly dangerous on counter attack one soon realises that kicking on Zane is a very safe option by comparison. Hopefully Taute will be brought into this role fulltime and possibly we can blood another player as we are extremely short on supply of good 15´s at present. Coetzee from the Lions may be another option and always thought that Riaan Viljoen makes a decent 15. Better than Zane at any rate.
Some simple positional changes and advice but putting together a team from the current availables and all of a sudden it looks a lot more dangerous:
1 Beast
2 Adriaan Strauss/ Deon Fourie
3 Jannie dup
4 Etzebeth
5 Wentzel
6 Francois Louw
7 Willem Alberts
8 Vermeulen
9 Jano Vermaak
10 Lambie
11 Raymond Rhule/ Mvovo
12 Juan de Jongh
13 Francois Houghaard
14 JP Pietersen
15 Jaco Taute
1 Nov 2012, 12:07 pm
@Heavens Game-165:
ja, deysel is an yster. i dont know who’s tougher, him or kanko considering kanko got up immediately after that head high stiff arm elbow tackle to his throat/larynx/esophagus by that KIW prop.
1 Nov 2012, 12:28 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-171: Ja… Sharkies… They not built for wearing Pink Jerseys…
1 Nov 2012, 12:56 pm
KIW = KIWI
1 Nov 2012, 13:11 pm
Seems to me that HM could make a good director of rugby!! He is not a very good Bok coach but maybe manager come director, he seems to have a good head for that
1 Nov 2012, 13:15 pm
Bakkies, jean dysel is not an yster boet, one little tap by the Canadian and he landed on his ar se looking all confused. I expected more from him, big drop in my estimation….
1 Nov 2012, 13:22 pm
Deysel??Hmmmm.Are we talking about the same oke that got farking Jebbed and rolled around like Ronaldo??
1 Nov 2012, 13:26 pm
@PissAnt-143: Yes, then the inverse for Bismarck is through, the margin of the difference blows your theory that NZ players play less SR & Test rugby than SA players.
1 Nov 2012, 13:27 pm
There is one thing that was not mentioned here, Goosen started the last test injured. HM played him even though he was injured. This coach does everything he tell others not to do.
1 Nov 2012, 13:52 pm
@XhosaKid-177:
No not really.
Because in that period Smit missed 10 tests through injury, 6 in 2008 after the Thorne tackle which took out his groin and 4 on the Grand Slam tour in 2010 to Europe because he had to go for an operation. Smit was only ever rested in extraordinary circumstances since 2004. His absence in any other test match was through injury.
Even that being the case, Smit still played more than Keven at test level.
So that is two players now that we can hold up in this debate, Morne and John vs. Dan and Keven.
1 Nov 2012, 14:04 pm
this whole debate is nothing new.
heyneke meyer spends his interviews just looking for excuses instead of getting on with the job he was chosen for,
and to be quiet honest with you if i had his players we would not lose a game because there is very little you can coach a talented player and all you need is
to forget about game plans etc and let the players play out their talents and the rest will take care of itself.
and i would chose form players and not go about making excuses of why i did not chose lambie over steyn and that the all blacks kicked more than us.
this is a ridiculous statement considering that they were not in the identical positions when they kicked.
to be quite blunt the man in charge is not the guy to be there.
1 Nov 2012, 15:06 pm
@whatever-175:
ja, but the measure was for how easy it was for him to get up again from that punch.
@PissAnt-179:
very interesting, thanks.
i mean no offence but XhosaKid mentioned he was in stats/finance/numbers or something related so am surprised by how he’s come up wrong on this (going by your numbers and analysis of course).
1 Nov 2012, 15:18 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-181:
Not so much right or wrong here.
I am quite interested by the outcome of this as much as anyone. I am off the belief SA players play more rugby than their NZ elite counterparts and I am open to any statistics that show otherwise – so far, two players looked at suggests we do.
1 Nov 2012, 16:25 pm
@norman-180: Dood, totally agree. HM needs to be careful of distractions from coaching the current players effectively at the moment. These guys are really good and most will compete well with the No 1 choices who are injured. Just keep quiet and think how you are going to blow away the NH teams…cause he really needs to if he is gonna get respect end this year.
Somebody else needs to fight the “central player contacting system” battle in the media. He should perhaps get the SA Players Association to put their foot down on the amount of rugby the guys have to play. They are good at ensuring contracts are done fairly so why not let them carry the agenda for reducing national players amount of rugby games? If the players and their representatives and associations are not singing the same tune as HM then why should SARU? Collective pressure from all stakeholders will be much more effective than an under pressure sub 50% winning rate coach.
1 Nov 2012, 22:41 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-181: @<a
Analysis?
It was comparing two players.
Do you know how stupid it sounds?
1 Nov 2012, 22:43 pm
@PissAnt-182:
lol you compared two playerd and that suggests what?
I tell you what it suggest, one of those players played more than the other.
No way in hell can you say NZ players play less rugby than SA players.
And now Bakkies thinks this is legit lol what a joke
2 Nov 2012, 07:24 am
@Hurricane-185:
hurri, you need to let go of the irritated anger, boet.
2 Nov 2012, 07:27 am
@Hurricane-184:
you are setting yourself up for ‘egg on the face’ here, buddy.
if pissant took the time to do the math and stats on this it will probably point to this.
2 Nov 2012, 10:16 am
Pleeez ! Deysel was coldcocked or whatever you call it. Anyone receiving a hard punch to the head/face area would go down if they were not expecting it.
The fact that he got up after and carried on playing shows what a toughie he is. That was no biachslap he received.
3 Nov 2012, 00:10 am
@188, he was tussling with Sinclair, so he should have been expecting it. He was looking the guy in the eye and got smacked. Would not want this wus on my tag team
3 Nov 2012, 07:02 am
170.Slumtown: Are you a coach by any chance. If not you should be a selector because you talk a whole lot of sense.
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