Meyer laments obstacle to dominance
31 Oct 2012
Heyneke Meyer has reiterated his call for a central contracting system as a means of making the Springboks the strongest force in the game.
The success of Meyer’s first season in charge has been compromised by a string of first-choice players going down injured, while there have also been a host of withdrawals of impact and fringe players. He will undertake the year-end tour without the services of Bismarck du Plessis, Bryan Habana, Frans Steyn and Andries Bekker, who are widely considered to be among the best in their positions in the game. They are all sidelined because of what Meyer has attributed to the destructive and cumulative effect of the longest season in their careers.
Meyer has voiced serious concerns about the well-being of the elite players in the recent past and has again suggested that something needs to change or risk their careers being cut by many years, in the process undermining any potential for the Springboks to become the world’s pre-eminent side.
‘My strength has always been to change flawed systems which I hope I can still do while in charge. New Zealand get it right from a player management point of view. We have to look at that as a way forward otherwise we will never be the top team in the world,’ Meyer told keo.co.za. ‘Our top players simply cannot play Currie Cup, Super Rugby and Test matches. Also their social and family life suffers because they are never at home. We are going to lose more players to overseas teams if this doesn’t change. If we want to win consistently, not just one or two here and there, we have to look at the systems going forward.
‘We’re not in an ideal situation and I’m worried about all the injuries, particularly since there are some world-class players unavailable,’ he continued. ‘This tour was already a tough one and with the injuries it will be tougher. It is frustrating because I wanted to try new things and build on what we’ve done so far. But when you have new players coming into the group you have to go back to basics. If you consider that Fourie du Preez and Jaque Fourie weren’t available, and Frans Steyn and Bryan Habana were injured recently, if I had all those players fit suddenly the backline is helluva experienced. Hopefully one day I can pick that backline.’
Team doctor Craig Roberts, however, eased some fears around the availability of players in the squad who are carrying knocks. Francois Louw’s neck injury has responded well to treatment and he is expected to play for Bath on Sunday. Adriaan Strauss will participate fully in training this week after a knee injury, while captain Jean de Villiers (hamstring) has already started running and will be available for selection for the Ireland Test.
Meyer confirmed that he had settled on the 32nd player to tour but could not say who because details were still being discussed with his club. Locks Bakkies Botha (Toulon) and Marco Wentzel (London Wasps) are on standby. Meyer extolled Wentzel’s lineout value (he has been the Premiership’s most successful lineout receiver), while adding that he still held Botha in high regard. ‘I’d love to have Bakkies involved because I think he has two or three years left in him at Test level,’ he said. ‘But he isn’t going to start ahead of Eben and he isn’t a bench player.’
By Ryan Vrede, in Cape Town
190 Comments
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31 Oct 2012, 21:37 pm
Okay but now I am gone, **** tired, cheers.
31 Oct 2012, 21:43 pm
@PissAnt-100:
OH did they interview all his countrymen did they?
Stop making silly things up.
Point is he is targeted. Bakkies is crying over one shot on Burger. I have put things right.
31 Oct 2012, 21:43 pm
@PissAnt-96: I’m in, so far I can say between 2007-2012 Kevin Mealamu has played 59 tests, starting 34 of them against Bismarck’s 46 tests with 29 starts, meaning Bismarck has been managed better than old man Kev, for the same period, Hore has 54 tests with 28 starts vs Smit’s 48 with 45 starts.
Super rugby stats will strengthen my argument even further taking into account that Bismarck and Smit shared duties at SR & CC level as opposed to Kev and Hore who are first choice hookers at SR level. I hereby dispute your statement, even more, Henry was vilified for weakening SR sides and losing to France in 2007, which put an end to withdrawing of players in the SR from 2008 until 2012
31 Oct 2012, 21:44 pm
@PissAnt-100:
Nz teams like every other team out there in the stratosphere know they must take it to Richie and negate his mastery of the game to overcome Abs or Crusaders….that is RESPECT….
31 Oct 2012, 21:47 pm
@Te Rangatira-99:
It seems in SA that if you see a player with hands in ruck you can take there head off and you will be let off by fans.
I am sure the people of SA with a bit of sanity see it different to Bakkies.
31 Oct 2012, 21:55 pm
@Hurricane-105:
I like Houston cause he brings something different to the table and seems a stand up guy…….even if he is wrong on this one
31 Oct 2012, 22:02 pm
@XhosaKid-103: to substantiate, we can assume a start = 55mins, sub = 25mins, that will mean
Kev = 1870mins + 625mins
Bismarck = 1595mins + 425mins
Hore = 1540mins + 650mins
Smit = 2475mins + 75mins
31 Oct 2012, 22:05 pm
@Hurricane-98:
big difference in how we go about trying to police cheating compared to you guys.
for us there is no intention to seriously hurt or maim the player cheating but only to forcefully check his behaviour.
and this only because the said players would in fact have been busy cheating.
whereas you people go out with the intention to hurt and maim key opposition players if it helps your objective.
@Te Rangatira-99:
no mention of the nz players actions on burger then
thought as much…
31 Oct 2012, 22:09 pm
@Te Rangatira-106:
cheers TR, and the same to you.
i know we will never agree to much but it doesn’t mean we cant engage one another.
to my mind you are a decent stand up guy too.
31 Oct 2012, 22:10 pm
and my leaving you out does not mean i dislike you, hurri.
(i know how precious you kiwis can be)
31 Oct 2012, 22:12 pm
ok, i’m off to bed
cheers folks
31 Oct 2012, 22:17 pm
HM himself is an obstacle to dominance…I mean Marco Wentzel? While he’s at it he can sommer bring back Johan Roets to replace Kirchner and Casper Steyn (aka die Spook van Loftus) to cover for Jantjies/Lambie.
31 Oct 2012, 22:20 pm
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-108:
well I put Burger up there with Richie…..you have to stop him from dominating in a legal way of course but sometimes things may go to far and then you may pay the price…..anyways can’t remember that incident…hehe
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-109:
Thanks Houston….one day I will get to Sa and visit you.
31 Oct 2012, 22:40 pm
hang on
Forcefully checking his behavior with a flying elbow?
on intention to seriously hurt or maim
you mean a flying forearm to a man llying prone on the ground is forcefully checking his behavior, yet tackling a player, with intent you have yet to prove, is paradoxically systematic removal of opposition captains?
it’s funny you mention BOD yet scoff at Le
Roux? didn’t realise there. was only a specific time frame.
as for Smit. he played almost the rest of that half before a groin injury. yep it was thorn dropping him on his backside that was targeting the captain.
classic
1 Nov 2012, 01:39 am
@Te Rangatira-106:
lol
He is different and a stand up…you have it right there
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-108:
You guys are not suppose to police cheats…the refs are.
So know we find out that SA want to police the game with elbows and eye gouging? That all now makes sense.
Looks like you missed the Bakkies tribute on you tube.
It is so funny, you see a couple of Bakkies running people over as he does once and a while but the majority of the video was elbows, shoulder charges, spear tackles, knees to people rib cage and a few other things. Yet you are bringing up a burger incident like it happens all the time to SA players lol.
@poppa69-114:
These guys are never happy. One minute they wanted Smit out, Thorn does them a favour and they complain.
1 Nov 2012, 04:22 am
Lamenting is no good Heyneke, you need to do something about central contracting and soon. With every loss that goes by your influence weakens.
1 Nov 2012, 04:24 am
Also, Botha is still better than Etsebeth but there’s no cast-iron reason why they can’t be in the same side.
1 Nov 2012, 06:19 am
@Te Rangatira-113: @Hurricane-115:
Quick question to you two, does central contracting in NZ actually means a player is told where he should play(team) or is it a case of the head coach being able to control when and in what position a player can/should play in a season?
Also, as PA suggested above, SA supporters get what they deserve. It is broken but half the people say stuff the Meyer because White and PDivvie had to do it? So we carry on with the flat tyre till when exactly?
1 Nov 2012, 06:27 am
@Big Hit-117:
Estebeth is the future and at this stage it would be better to invest in him than bring Bakkies back. Tell me something else, is Bakkies a 80 minute man these days or does he still only go for 60 minutes max?
1 Nov 2012, 07:23 am
@Te Rangatira-113:
cheers TR, will look forward to it
@poppa69-114:
no one condoned his actons, certainly not me… and quite rightly he was punished accordingly.
who’s scoffing at le roux? huh? again, so far off the mark its pointless talking to you. le roux was immedialtely dropped and never ever played for the boks again because of his actions… but you cant admit this part can you…. that we actually punish players who seek to injure opposition with malice… because you lot still have to clean yourselves up.
still waiting to hear what became of the nz transgressors… oh that’s right… there’s nothing to tell because its been stitched up as per kiwi usual.
@Hurricane-115:
we know where leaving the policing to refs gets us, dont we, hurri.
bakkies was hard but clean.
@Slartibartfast-119:
if you watch a few of his games at toulon you would see he’s putting in 80 min performances of note lately. granted it does seem as though he is being managed but so are a lot of other players in the toulon squad.
besides, why expect him to go the full 80 if we have a bench of 8..? the modern game requires standard substitutuions be made in a match as a matter of course.
my thinking is the boy is only 20 years old so why play him to pieces this earliy and young in his career if it can be avoided? bakkies would be a capable stand in for the 4 lock position in a career managed processed with the view to building and not breaking a world dominating prospect in the boy.
1 Nov 2012, 07:25 am
career managed processed = career managed process
1 Nov 2012, 07:26 am
breaking a world dominating prospect in the boy.= breaking a world dominating prospect, which the boy seems to be.
1 Nov 2012, 07:31 am
@Slartibartfast-118:
As I understand it. The NZRU only applies central contracting to the franchises and ABs. They don’t dictate who plays where but allow the franchises to nominate a 26 (I think) player squad. Then they can move players not nominated to other franchises who can use them. The advantage there is that young talented players get a chance of game time at SR level. After the SR season they’d return back to their provincial side.
1 Nov 2012, 07:39 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-120:
Thanks Bakkies, I don’t have an issue with him playing but was rather making a point to GH that Eben is the future.
@David-123:
Which makes perfect sense , the point is that saru won’t suddenly tell Schalk or whoever they now need to play for the Bulls…unless the Stormers did not want him or see him as part of their top 26.
1 Nov 2012, 07:57 am
@Slartibartfast-124:
It makes perfect sense. The NZ SR system is actually a form of AB trials which are regionally based. Much like we used to have. The NZRU decides which players they want to see, not the provinces or franchises. They also actively participate in selecting the franchise coaches, which SARU also has the right to do, but never has.
Note that it’s the NZRU, not just the AB coach who’s involved.
1 Nov 2012, 08:15 am
@Slartibartfast-124:
yes agreed, eben is the future.
1 Nov 2012, 08:23 am
Heyneke Meyer might just be one of the worst coaches the Springboks have had in the modern era. Now that I have that out of the way, let me start by saying that the myth of Springbok superiority in rugby has been grossly overstated for many years now.
It is true that the Springboks were once on par with New Zealand, but that was mostly 1900-1950, and 1967-1980, and with the exception of 1998 has been nowhere to be found in the professional era, which started post 1992.
Since 1992 the Springboks have won only 61.5% of their games, versus the 80.2% of the All Blacks, and the 64.9% of the Wallabies. And in that time we’ve had the following coaches:
1992: John Williams – P5 / W1 – Win Rate 20%
1993-1994: Ian McIntosh – P12 / W4 – Win Rate 33%
1994-1995: Kitch Christie – P14 / W14 – Win Rate 100%
1996: Andre Markgraaff – P13 / W8 – Win Rate 61%
1997: Carel du Plessis – P8 / W3 – Win Rate 37%
1997-1999: Nick Mallett – P38 / W27 – Win Rate 71%
2000-2001: Harry Viljoen – P15 / W8 – Win Rate 53%
2002-2003: Rudolph Straeuli – P23 / W12 – Win Rate 52%
2004-2007: Jake White – P54 / W36 – Win Rate 66%
2008-2011: Peter de Villiers – P48 / W30 – Win Rate 62%
2012: Heyneke Meyer – P9 / W4 – Win Rate 44%
As you can see, this is mostly a picture of mediocrity. It is generally accepted that, considering the number of games they were in charge for, Nick Mallet is the most successful rugby coach that South Africa has ever had, and Rudolph Straeuli the worst. So how does Heyneke Meyer compare to the coaches we’ve had since Nick Mallet? Badly, that’s how. Taking into account their first 9 games, here’s how the various coaches fared.
Nick Mallet – P9 / W9 – 100% Win rate
Rudolph Straeuli – P9 / W5 – 55.5% Win rate
Jake White – P9 / W7 – 77.7% Win rate
Pieter de Villiers – P9 / W5 – 55.5% Win rate
Heyneke Meyer – P9 / W4 – 44% Win Rate
But that’s not all; two of these coaches (Nick Mallet and Jake White) won the Tri Nations in their first year in charge as coach, and they did it while building teams almost from scratch. All of them had highlights in their first 9 tests. Mallet destroyed France 52-10 in Paris, Scotland 68-10, Ireland 33-0, Wales 96-13 and England 18-0.
Straeuli roughed up Argentina 49-29 and demolished Samoa 60-18. Jake White’s Boks bashed Ireland 31-17, Wales 53-18 and beat New Zealand in a very memorable and high scoring 40-26 game in Johannesburg. Pieter de Villiers gave us 26-0 against Italy, 63-9 against Argentina and beat New Zealand at home for the first time in nearly a decade.
What has Heyneke Meyer’s first 9 tests given us? The first time we failed to beat England since 2006, ending a 9 game winning streak against them. The first ever draw against Argentina. A humiliating 32-16 loss against New Zealand in our own back yard.
One good game against an already imploding Australian side. A 44% winning rate. Even Rudolph Straeuli, considered by many the worst coach we’ve ever had, outperformed Meyer.
This is incredibly sad for many reasons, but mostly because of the proud tradition that Springbok rugby used to have. See, while our dominance may have been overstated, it took New Zealand until 1996 to win their first series here. And until the end of 1999 the books were evenly balanced, both of us having won 24 games against the other. In 1937 the Springboks toured New Zealand and beat them 2-1 in a series in New Zealand.
In 1949 they toured South Africa and lost the series 4-0. As political unrest enveloped the country and we became more and more isolated the opportunities got less and results worse, but between 1967 and 1980 the Boks played the Blacks 8 times, winning 6 of the games and losing just 2. New Zealand vs South Africa was considered the unofficial world cup.
Unfortunately those days are gone, and with Meyer at the helm, we might not see them soon, if ever again. Meyer seems quite pleased with himself, always pointing out that his charges are supposedly improving. He said that the All Black’s running style of rugby only works in movies, called the Boks underdogs, and even points out that we’ve gone from number 4 to number 2 on the IRB rankings, like that was something he accomplished.
The Boks have 3 tests remaining for the year, and even if they win all 3 it will put Heyneke Meyer’s win rate at 58%. We can, therefore, already compare his first year with that of other coaches, and it would look as follows. I’ve only included coaches who coached more than 10 games in their first 12 months.
Kitch Christie – P12 / W12 – 100%
Andre Markgraaff – P13 / W8 – 61%
Nick Mallett – P13 / W13 – 100%
Harry Viljoen – P11 / W6 – 54.5%
Rudolph Straeuli – P11 / W5 – 45.5%
Jake White – P13 / W9 – 69.2%
Pieter de Villiers – P13 /W9 – 69.2%
Heyneke Meyer – P12 / W7 – 58.3%
Looked at it this way, Heyneke Meyer’s first year will likely be the 3rd worst in the modern era. Sub 60% win rates simply isn’t good enough for the Springboks, I’m sorry.
We need a coach that strives for excellence and recognizes South Africa’s proud history. One that wants to return to the days of yore when the All Blacks and Springboks were deadly enemies and it was the only game that mattered. Meyer is clearly not that man.
1 Nov 2012, 08:24 am
@trupisero-127: Copy & paste – I can’t type that long.
1 Nov 2012, 08:32 am
@trupisero-127:
a good boss who i loathed but respected enormously for his business/management ability had a few sayings whcih he lived/operated by.
one of them was: ‘never come into my office to present me with any problems, rather come into my office when you are ready to present me with the solutions needed, to those problems’.
1 Nov 2012, 08:41 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-120:
So eye gouging and elbows and late charges is the South African way then, thats what you are saying.
You are alone when you say bakkies was fair/clean
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyI1UQfT6K0
Pleanty of elbows, spear tackles and knees for you in here. Disgusting and you think he is fair
1 Nov 2012, 08:52 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-129: That how you got fired
@Hurricane-130: Morning Sandy.
1 Nov 2012, 08:59 am
@Hurricane-130:
you’re deflecting, hurri.
@trupisero-131:
no, i needed to grow so moved on.
1 Nov 2012, 09:11 am
@trupisero-131:
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-132:
So explain the link i just put up please.
1 Nov 2012, 09:19 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-132: Solution presented then
1 Nov 2012, 09:25 am
@trupisero-134:
Yep, he fell in love with Bakkies.
1 Nov 2012, 09:42 am
Te rangi @77
Mate, have a good look at the video of that game and you will see a cowardly Andy Haden smack burger geldenhyus from behind in a ruck. Burger gets up and smacks the first and closeby bloke to him, being dalton. Unlucky! You can even see the sniveling Haden looking back over his shoulder as he runs away and is then the first to come to Dalton’s aid when he sees the consequences of his cowardly punch! Dems da facts, so less of the bs labeling of the Boks. Dare I say a typical doos one eyed keeeewee comment!
1 Nov 2012, 10:00 am
@Hurricane-133:
selective camera angles, hurri.
how many hours of effort did it take the nz ministry of propaganda to put that little nugget together..?..
@trupisero-134:
lmga
@David-135:
chops
@whatever-136:
thank you.
1 Nov 2012, 10:20 am
bakkiies
so youve gone from a flying elbow is fine because its forcefully checking the guy on the field, to talk punishment, when my facts proved that SA target captains just as much as you perceive NZ to do..
still no proof conclusively that the tackle on burger was with intent to injure or maim?
dont bother responding bakkies, im sure it must damage your keyboard what with all the tears that spill from every post..
SA are angels huh?
1 Nov 2012, 10:37 am
The punch of Burger Geldenhuys on Dalton was the schweetist PK I ever did see on greenfields where the game played in heaven is played…
An absolute beaut…
1 Nov 2012, 10:38 am
Pity it was wasted on a rather soft Kiwi…
1 Nov 2012, 10:47 am
@Heavens Game-139:
Naw, it was a coward’s punch, from behind, Dalton did not see it coming and had no chance to take evasive action or to block it..
Best one i saw was from Gert Smal on Gary Knight, check the clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwvkJLRF5Uo
1 Nov 2012, 10:54 am
@Robzim-141: Smal’s was good, but Knight was fairly undamaged…
Naah, Geldenhuys right up there with Mendez on Dooley…
Glass jaw exposers…
1 Nov 2012, 11:04 am
@XhosaKid-103:
Thanks, interesting.
I think we can assume both John Smit and Keven was their respective teams first choice players?
But just a quick amendment from your figures there.
Firstly, forget 2012, Smit retired at 2011 so stats from 2007 to 2011 will read
John: 48 tests, 45 starts
Keven: 51 tests, 30 starts
Then if we apply you minutes played formula later on it will calculate to:
John: 2475 minutes (starts) plus 75 minutes (sub) total: 2550
Keven: 1650 minutes (starts) plus 525 minutes (sub) total: 2175
Difference: 375 minutes or 4.6 games.
Did I apply your formula correctly?
1 Nov 2012, 11:05 am
1970 AB Tour
“They beat us 9-8 in the second Test. It was the most horrible Test,” recalled Syd Nomis, for whom that defeat was a particularly bitter pill to swallow.
“I had teeth knocked out, Dawie (de Villiers) had nine stitches in his ear, Piston (van Wyk) had 12 stitches in his upper lip,” he recalled of the lengths (and depths) the teams went to in the second Test.
“I eventually lost six teeth. They transplanted some at the back with cement the next day. They lasted four and a half years before being rejected by my body. I had to put in a bridge because the teeth just crumbled,” said the engaging former utility back who turns 70 in November.
Nomis suffered the injury at the hands, er, make that elbow, of All Blacks fullback Fergie McCormick, who straight armed the speeding wing who was in hot pursuit of a kick.
“I had two weeks to sort out my teeth before the next Test and I had to wear a gum guard. I think I might have started the use of gum guards.
“There was a bit of revenge coming,” Nomis said of the third Test. “McCormick was made to suffer a little bit. He gave me a straight-arm elbow at Newlands and it wasn’t a nice thing. In the third Test he hit me again and my jaw went to one side. The two of us were fighting in front of the main stand and back then the ref didn’t come and stop things.
“Lofty (Nel) came up and stopped the whole thing. Fergie was a bit of a dirty player. He got hurt in that game and I don’t think he played another game on tour.”
1 Nov 2012, 11:07 am
@Heavens Game-142:
Best “local” punch i have seen this year was Jebb Sinclair on Jean Deysel.
Sweetly timed short right cross out of the boxing handbook by Angel(o) Dundee
I bet Jean heard the voices of Angels calling
1 Nov 2012, 11:07 am
@whatever-136:
Breaking a players jaw from from behind is all good in your eyes aye ………Whatever. Fukkeduptwit.
1 Nov 2012, 11:09 am
@David-144: Interesting stuff David.Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
1 Nov 2012, 11:11 am
@Robzim-141:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj839DQuMaI
1 Nov 2012, 11:14 am
@Te Rangatira-146: yep, him and the likes of HG too
you just know these two are the type who would glass someone..
admiring a cheap kinghit from behind
gutless cowards like the bloke who threw it..
1 Nov 2012, 11:14 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-137:
Camera angles??
hahaha i dont understand how you can say that rubbish.
You area fool.
Funny thing is, its a Bok supporter that put it up….. hahaha.
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