Boks still in search of balance
12 Nov 2012
RYAN VREDE, in Edinburgh, writes the Springboks continue to exhibit the foundation for success with excellent defence, but are no further to curing their attacking deficiencies.
The Springboks would have looked on enviously on Sunday when the All Blacks further underlined the gulf that exists between them and other elite nations in the game. Their benchmark team excelled on attack, running in six tries in their 51-22 victory over Scotland.
They are what coach Heyneke Meyer envisions his team becoming, but while they pale in comparison from an attacking perspective (more on this shortly), defensively they compare favourably with the world champions.
Indeed only Richie McCaw’s superlative team have consistently troubled and unhinged the Springboks this season, scoring five tries against them in two Rugby Championship Tests. However, a review of the Springboks’ Dunedin defeat will show individual errors at the heart of the Blacks’ two tries.
Central to the Blacks’ success against their traditional rivals is their ability to match and often dominate them physically at the gainline. Certainly it would be remiss not to note their unmatched capacity to punish from broken-field situations, but their primary threat is rooted in their array of world-class strike runners, whose power is accompanied by intelligence and awareness in the tackle and the constant presence of support runners. They’ve tormented the Springboks in a manner no other team they’ve faced has.
England scored five tries in the three-Test series during the Springboks’ formative phase under Meyer in June, Argentina and Australia were blanked for tries at Newlands and Loftus respectively, while Argentina crossed the chalk once in Mendoza.
On Saturday in Dublin Ireland simply could not breach the Springboks’ tryline, despite completely bossing territory and possession in the first half and having a one-man advantage just before the break. Ireland huffed and puffed, but the Springboks’ house increasingly appears to be built on a solid foundation and engineered with formidable features like belligerence, physicality (at times brutality), work rate, accuracy, communication, trust and, at times, desperation.
Openside flank Francois Louw continued to underline his value to the Springboks with another strong showing at the breakdown, but it must also be noted that the team has benefitted from Duane Vermeulen and Adriaan Strauss’s contributions in this facet of play. The trio became more prominent as the collective improved their tackle fight in the second half at Lansdowne Road, each effective in slowing the recycle, which in turn regularly allowed the defensive line to set, while Louw forced crucial penalties when Ireland threatened on attack.
I’ve written before that this should be a cause for optimism for the South African rugby fraternity. The world’s best sides have built their success on defensive solidity. However, that cannot mitigate the Springboks’ continued sterility on attack. They returned to their strengths – abrasive and patient forward play – to score their only try of Saturday’s match, but were uninspiring for the bulk of the contest, as they have been for most of the season.
A lack of platform or opportunities (statistically they’ve spent more time in the opposition’s 22m than any team in the world this season) are not problems. Meyer is privately concerned about the lack of X factor in his back division but has concerns about the size of men like Juan de Jongh (among others), whom many believe has that quality. How he solves that problem remains to be seen, but it is a matter of urgency. Expect this to improve moderately should more of his first-choice players be available in 2013, but it is essentially a coaching and selection issue.
Here’s hoping this problem doesn’t become chronic. For now, much confidence can be drawn from their strength of their defensive game.
243 Comments
12 Nov 2012, 05:48 am
Playing like dumb dragons.
Let’s give DeJonge a chance against scotland and move Taute to full back. Hougaard to be benched for Mvovo and JDV to retire. Can we then teach all players how to offload in the tackle and how to to run into space, it’s like they see the opposition and just want to run over him which may work at schoolboy level but at international level most players can tackle and besides when their is no offload what’s the point of battering it up only to go to ground and slow the momentum.
12 Nov 2012, 06:22 am
Speaking of ‘balance’… just what is this Kleinveldt guy doing playing test cricket?
12 Nov 2012, 06:25 am
@bryce_in_oz-2:
Bowling no-balls?
12 Nov 2012, 06:28 am
I would like to see Jordaan playing outside De Jongh. that sounds pretty damn excisting to me. I just dont see de Villiers as a playmaker- he never offloads, always crash bash…
12 Nov 2012, 06:36 am
@Slartibartfast-3:
And giving away an ODI run/rate…
@SjamBok-4:
JDJ is no distributor… never was… never will be…
12 Nov 2012, 07:04 am
@SjamBok-4: Sounds exciting and Jordan has SO much promise, BUT how often do you see JDJ pass?? Jordan would never get the ball
12 Nov 2012, 07:05 am
Hey Ryan, serious question. I appreciate your putting across your viewpoints on playing to our strengths and also reporting on HM’s fear of starting JdJ due to his size.
Has anyone questioned him on why this same fear is not expressed when comparing Mvovo to Hougaard?
I don’t see what world Hougaard is bigger than Mvovo and his form does not warrant a start on the wing. IMHO
12 Nov 2012, 07:06 am
@bryce_in_oz-2:
keeping oz in the game
12 Nov 2012, 07:09 am
Can some1 post or give a summary on the article in the rapport discussing Rhule saying HM has asked him to work on his kicking game?
12 Nov 2012, 07:16 am
The issue is that the coach is k@k. Wrong gameplan, poor player selection.
The team should be:
1. Beast (Pat)
2. Biz (Schalk)
3. Heinke
4. Alberts
5. Etsebeth
6. Fourie
7. Louw
8 Duane
9. Hougaard
10. Goosen (Lambie)
11. Rhule
12. Steyn (Jordaan)
13. De Jongh
14. JP
15. Taute
12 Nov 2012, 07:17 am
@papaown-7:
“Has anyone questioned him on why this same fear is not expressed when comparing Mvovo to Hougaard?”
brilliant question. im sure we all know the answer – FH is his chomie from the bulls full stop. Using HMs size logic FH should be nowhere near the boks set up. dittto Ruan
I dont buy this whole size thing theres more to it, JDJ and Aplon consistently carve up bigger opposition in the Super15 . And Super15 is where the bulk of southern hemisphere international players are picked from.
HM is just to stuck in his way to admit his wrong or change .why else do the boks start of every first half kicking the ball away and then when it all goes to custard they start playing with ball in hand. He just believes in his plan so much so he cant see the damage its doing
12 Nov 2012, 07:28 am
@garth-10:
Right, so you would prefer to run on with 3 injured players then, interesting.
12 Nov 2012, 07:40 am
@Slartibartfast-12: I think you have misinterpreted my post. The bracketed names are those which I’d play now that the 1st choice player is injured.
12 Nov 2012, 07:41 am
Thankfully France, N.Z. and England made the w-end rugby worthwhile while the rest were poor seconds.
12 Nov 2012, 07:42 am
who let the kenners out the cage..?..
12 Nov 2012, 07:46 am
Until HM starts to select specialist players in there respective positions the die will always run flat. Taut is a fullback and misses the 2 or 3 opportunities that might be created at outside centre, which is a specialist position.
Alberts is not up to international rugby. Maybe carrying an injury, but deffinately weakens th back row desperately looking for that Juan smith style player.
12 Nov 2012, 07:51 am
@hardcore-16:
Until HM is replaced we will be regressing!!! It actually doesn’t matter who he chooses the style of play is dull and outdated… We will be pulling our hair out for another four years if things don’t change quickly. It was so funny listening to Nick Mallet when he said both of Ireland’s centres would never make the Bok side as they don’t fit HM’s size target. The smirk on his face was priceless… saying to HM he is a p rick…
Our cricketers are going to end fighting to stave off defeat if this continues…. The run rate is too high and will leave enough time for Oz to bowl us out if they can get a big enough lead…
12 Nov 2012, 07:54 am
I must agree.
If size was the issue Krusty the clown Zane should also go. On second thought, I have never been so irritated by a player like him. He gets great counter attacking chance and what does he do……kick it up……my gosh Dagg would have made million meters in same situation.
I’m tired of the “we are building” kuk every one dish up for old HM…….
If you can not pick a winning team ( read also beat the all blacks to pieces) from a S15 campaign where 3 teams went to play offs and one went on to the final………then you are an idiot!”
Too many lover boys in the team just easing out a salary.
Oh…and Zane is kuk! For all the Nik naks supporters….you know little about rugby if you support this type of fullback at bok level!
12 Nov 2012, 07:57 am
Fark 22 no-balls so far!
Kleinveldt 11
Philander 8
Morkel 2
Steyn 1
And costed us at least one wicket…you don’t win a match bowling like this!
12 Nov 2012, 07:58 am
@garth-10:
And you have no idea your tight-head from your loose-head…
12 Nov 2012, 07:59 am
The 2 Aussie century makers have negated the opposition ones as this cricket test heads towards a tame draw.
Been watching since 5am but have to leave it now as I have bigger fish to fry on this new day of a new week.
12 Nov 2012, 08:00 am
@garth-13:
This is what confused me…
The team should be:…
12 Nov 2012, 08:01 am
@Slartibartfast-19:
Yep Kleinveldt’s style/pace is like a poor-man’s hybrid of Kallis and Philander… so just what is he doing there… is he at least an all-rounder as the Protea’s can rarely bat past 6?
12 Nov 2012, 08:02 am
@bryce_in_oz-20: Ooops. I normally bite others **** for the same
12 Nov 2012, 08:05 am
@garth-24:
And whats-more mate… rugby in the modern era is 22man 85min rugby… the bench dynamic is just as important as the starters…
12 Nov 2012, 08:15 am
I would like to see some changes for the Scotland game
Beast back (if he is allowed to play)
JdJ at 13
Mvovo at 14
Heinke on the bench instead of CJ
Hougaard on the bench
Jantjies on the bench instead of M.Steyn
Taute on the bench and coming on at 60 mins for Kirchner.
12 Nov 2012, 08:16 am
@bryce_in_oz-23: Yip he can bat a bit. Big-hitter of the ball.
12 Nov 2012, 08:17 am
Wow, lots of comments concerning peripheral aspects about my post with no real input. Petty.
12 Nov 2012, 08:18 am
kleinveldt bowling like a jamaican guitarist at the moment.
12 Nov 2012, 08:20 am
@garth-10: Sorry but you lost me in the first few lines,
Pat is a tighthead. Heinke is a Loosehead, so you can have either him or Beast as starters. Pat can start at 3 though.
Did you mean:
1. Beast (Heinke)
2. Schalk
3. Pat
12 Nov 2012, 08:23 am
@garth-28:
Nothing personal Garth, I see little gain in comparing my own favorites with someone elses. But just to humor you/me can you explain why you want to drop Doc Dup and why you want to include an obvious out of form Hougaard at 9?
12 Nov 2012, 08:23 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-29: Fizzling out into a draw it would seem.
Reload and start again in a week or so.
12 Nov 2012, 08:24 am
@Sasuke-26:
gurthro if fit and leave mvovo in ‘the wider squad’.
12 Nov 2012, 08:24 am
@Sasuke-26: Taute on the bench and coming on for last 60 mins for Kirchner.
12 Nov 2012, 08:25 am
@stormersboy-32:
and to think it started with a bang…
ho hum…
12 Nov 2012, 08:29 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-35: Ja it would have been useful to have a decent spinner on this pitch. Could have taken one or 2, and then the whole innings is turned on its head.
Shoulda coulda woulda….
12 Nov 2012, 08:29 am
@garth-34: So you agree?
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-33: So Gurthro to provide cover for Beast?
12 Nov 2012, 08:30 am
@stormersboy-32: Just hope we bowl them out soon so that Smith, AB, Rudolph can get some more batting practice.
12 Nov 2012, 08:31 am
Smith bowling. Out of other ideas?
12 Nov 2012, 08:32 am
I will rest Alberts this sat and play Marcell.He looked hungry and fresh and then Williem could be well rested for the english.What do you guys think about Eben at 5 and Flip at 4.I think Flippie will be better in the hard stuff than Kruger and Eben is better at lineouts anyway.
12 Nov 2012, 08:35 am
Th calls for JDV to go is really in port taste, he was the only player besides Hougard/ Peterson that could get us go forward ball from a backline play. He is strong and still has speed. He just needs a 13 that actually knows where to run the lines.
We are not attacking well because we have a poor backline coach! Lounbcher is a idiot, as a player and as a coach.
12 Nov 2012, 08:35 am
@The Beast-40: I agree that Alberts looked flat this past game, and to be honest, he’s been off form for some games now. I think he needs a rest.
12 Nov 2012, 08:36 am
@The Beast-40: Eben was great on Saturday in the Line-outs but that was because Kruger was calling the Line-outs very well, varying them throughout the game. Can Eben carry the responsibility of calling the line-outs? I am not sure. But I agree it is a role he should grow into in future.
Problem with Bekker is that he calls 80% of the line-outs on himself, the opposition has worked this out. Kruger might not be the toughest of locks but his work in the line-outs is great.
12 Nov 2012, 08:37 am
@garth-10: When someone accuses a coach of being stupid and dumb ,and they themselves, pick a loosehead at tight head , I wonder
12 Nov 2012, 08:37 am
@stormersboy-36:
yip, i had a bad feeling when jp suffered his freak injury.
bad omen imo.
@Sasuke-37:
no, if fit i would play gurthro and let beast provide cover.
beast’s last big season was 2009, he was really good that year. he needs to get the hunger back.
12 Nov 2012, 08:37 am
@The Beast-40: Yup, Kruger was useless. Weak on defence and attack, did nothing at lineout time and made no impact.
I would take a fit Bekker anyday over this average Joe. But in the meanwhile I would select Flip and Eben. Eben doesn’t even have to change his playing style, just needs to call the lineout plays!
12 Nov 2012, 08:39 am
@goodstuff-41: Agreed JDv had a really good game, breaking tackles and gaining valauble go forward ball. He made Darcy his b*&%h
12 Nov 2012, 08:39 am
@The Beast-40:
i just want more physicality from our 4.
12 Nov 2012, 08:40 am
@goodstuff-46:
our posts are at oppositie poles!
12 Nov 2012, 08:40 am
Shocking decision to pick Kleinveldt over Tahir for the first Test which is now coming back to bite them in the proverbial. Not having a specialist spinner is criminal.
As for the rugby…what uninspired codswallop we dished up. The second half might have been better, but there are fundamental flaws in this Bok side.
I’m concerned we might lose to Scotland AGAIN.
12 Nov 2012, 08:41 am
Great news Beast is fit to play.
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-48: Seriously?
12 Nov 2012, 08:41 am
@Sasuke-43:
Eben is going to end up being one of the most legendary locks the game has ever seen.
He is already coming into his own as a “defensive” lineout specialist, in the sense of stealing or disrupting opposition throw-ins.
12 Nov 2012, 08:42 am
Well, at least we’re back to 5 wins out of 10 games this year. That’s 50%.
Of further significance is that we have just won our first away game under Heyneke. Congrats guys.
To be honest, while I was hoping for an 80% win ratio in year 1, a record of 7 wins, 2 draws and 3 losses isn’t close to “firing’ material for a new coach after his first year in charge, all things considered.
That’s what we’re aiming for now.
12 Nov 2012, 08:43 am
Heyneke has completely ruined Hougaard, imo our most naturally talented back. He isn’t getting into the game on the wing and the coaching team have weighed him down like a ton of bricks. Should have been given an extended run at scrumhalf and allowed to play his natural game.
1.Beast/Guthro
2. Strauss
3. JdP
4. Bakkies
5. Etsebeth
6. Louw
7. Alberts
8. Vermuelen
9. Hougaard
10. Lambie
11. Rhule
12. JdV
13. JdJ
14. Pietersen
15. Taute
12 Nov 2012, 08:43 am
@Spiesisworthless1-54:
With Hougaard at 9 you could write off Lambie’s chances of becoming a star flyhalf.
12 Nov 2012, 08:44 am
C’mon Vrede!!!
You can’t seriously apply the word ‘excellent’ to any facet of the boks game plan!
They operated purely on sheer stubbornness and pride and any consequence of that was by bloody default.
12 Nov 2012, 08:44 am
@Sasuke-43: I hear you on Kruger making the calls but I like Flippie these days and im not a bulls supporter.He bring a alot of beef.
12 Nov 2012, 08:45 am
@Tacitus-53:
Nothing like a dose of apologism to get your week started.
12 Nov 2012, 08:45 am
@goodstuff-41:
i will say i liked the way jean called the team in close and settled them down with a good team talk. it was clear they were rattled up to that point and was probably the one time i’ve seen him show good outright leadership as a cappy.
12 Nov 2012, 08:46 am
@WP-Forever-58:
57% year 1
75% year 2
80% year 3
World Cup trophy year 4.
The thing is, we could achieve all of the above, and the haters would still want him fired just because of the style of game he advocates.
12 Nov 2012, 08:48 am
@Tacitus-60:
I’m sorry, Tacitus.
I don’t buy what you’re selling.
Springbok coaches should not be judged on whether they win the World Cup or not.
That is a typical cop-out used by coaches to buy themselves time.
And it outright contradicts what Meyer himself stated his intentions were when he first set out on this path as Springbok coach.
The Springboks must consistently achieve a 80% win rate.
Anything less is simply not good enough.
12 Nov 2012, 08:49 am
@Sasuke-51:
ja… he’s a little too fancy for my liking.
this isn’t gymnastics.
but what do i know…
12 Nov 2012, 08:49 am
“Openside flank Francois Louw continued to underline his value to the Springboks with another strong showing at the breakdown, but it must also be noted that the team has benefitted from Duane Vermeulen and Adriaan Strauss’s contributions in this facet of play.”
Why do the keo writers continue this line of Vermeulen punting when it’s hard to see what exactly he does that’s so amazing at the breakdown? It’s a myth. He used to turn over ball for Province at one stage, but even that dried up. He’s good with ball in hand, and puts in some big hits, but this ever-repeated story of him being a third breakdown specialist is just a fable that Ryan & Co can’t bring themselves to stop saying.
Watch the game, and then write about what you see. It really is a simple business. But don’t get caught up in writing what you think players are good at, or what other people tell you. Just what you see.
12 Nov 2012, 08:50 am
@garth-10:
Seriously? A loosehead at tighthead, a nr 7 at tight lock, nobody that can read and manage lineouts our greatest strength (not something you teach Eben over a beer after Tuesday practice). Can’t have Fourie and Louw on the field at the same time – a waste and you will lose out on gainline momentum.
Backline not too bad but Rhule needs a season of SuperRugby first to iron out his game.
Heyneke is not getting it right, but rather him than waht you have put forward!
12 Nov 2012, 08:50 am
@The Beast-57: Yes true he provides great bulk something that Eben is missing but Eben makes up for it with his explosive strength and mobility. A combo of Eben and Flip will be great but then Eben needs to start learning how to call and analyse line-outs.
12 Nov 2012, 08:50 am
@The Beast-57: I believe that if you have two best locks at 2+m tall, the opposition will loose at least half their lineouts if those two locks are Bekker and Eben.
One jumper up front and one at the middle to back end, then have Flouw cover the back of the line for the eventual over throw.
Viriaty in lineout calls can be coached and planned ahead, Olso a fit Bekker can be much more physical than powder puff Kruger. Kruger playing just like Matfield without the genius lineout play. All lineout but nowhere in the field.
12 Nov 2012, 08:50 am
@WP-Forever-61:
Yes, and how many have achieved that in our illustrious history? I believe under Heyneke we will get to an 80% win ratio – which is more important to me than a World Cup title.
I thought we’d get to 75% already in year 1. I am disappointed that we did not.
Interestingly, if we win the next two tour games, then all that seperates us froma 75% win ratio this year are two drawn games.
Some perspective required, I reckon.
12 Nov 2012, 08:51 am
@Tacitus-55
ienaar took most of the initiative away from Lambie against the Irish though.
I think a Hougaard/Goosen combo could become the catalyst for an evolution of our game-plan. Very excited to see that.
12 Nov 2012, 08:51 am
Chicco atually had a decent5 game ,
Play JdJ at 13 drop Taute, if you can not get the ball to the wings , why drop Hougie, fix centres first before fixing the wings.
We need a 12 , call Jan serfontein.
Marcell played much better when he came on , Alberts was as flat as Vermeulen.
8 Arno, 7 Marcell, 6 Louw
12 Nov 2012, 08:52 am
@Spiesisworthless1-68: Of course the coaches would have to come to the party first.
12 Nov 2012, 08:52 am
@The Beast-57:
yip
flip is maturing nicely.
12 Nov 2012, 08:53 am
@Spiesisworthless1-68:
Goosen yes. Hougaard should stay as far away from scrumhalf as is possible.
Pienaar is a stop gap, but another 2-3 year stint for Fourie du Preez would take us to the next level. Imagine him settling in the rookie Goosen with his experience and tactical appreciation for the game.
That’s what Heyneke’s really aiming for, I reckon.
12 Nov 2012, 08:53 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-62: lol true but he is effective, most of the time it takes two guys to bring him down and his mobility is great, he makes good ground. But i kind of agree with you, he will make a great No 5 once he starts calling the shots in the line out.
12 Nov 2012, 08:54 am
@katman-63: I agree Vermeulen biggest dissapointment so far, give the youngsters a chance
12 Nov 2012, 08:55 am
Based on injuries to beast etc.
1 Guthro
2 Strauss
3 JDP
4 Flip
5 Eben
6 Flouw
7 Marcell
8 Vermeulen
9 Pienaar
10 Lambie
11 Mvovo
12 JDV
13 JDJ
14 JP
15 Taute
Good balance of attack and tactics. Alberts to sub MArcell at 60min, props to also sub with Heinke/ Cilliers, Bakkies on the bench, with Jantjies/ Kirchner/ Hougard on the bench.
12 Nov 2012, 08:56 am
@katman-63: Morning boet.
Mallet did mention Vermeulen and Strauss in the post match talk, basically saying the same thing that Vrede just wrote.
I think Vrede just copied and pasted it.
The fact is, very few people looked up to the job on Saturday.
12 Nov 2012, 08:57 am
@capebull-74: Don’t get me wrong – I think he’s a decent 8. But this rubbish that Ryan and Cardinelli waffle week in and week out about him being a third fetcher in the team is nonsense.
If you want a good no. 8, look no further than Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe. I know he played on the flank against Wales, but in my opinion he’s the best 8 in the world at the moment.
12 Nov 2012, 08:59 am
@katman-77:
Better than Parisse?
12 Nov 2012, 09:00 am
@Tacitus-60: Unfortunately you are contradicting yourself now.
When HM was chosen you kept saying that it didn’t matter who he chose as long as the results were there.
Now you want to “build” to the next world cup?? Sies man.
Now I’m not advocating HM to step down but you cannot deny the guy has failed according to the standards you yourself set for him.
Dismally.
12 Nov 2012, 09:00 am
@Tacitus-72: I wonder what kind of shape Du Preez will be in when he returns from Japan, Jaque Fourie too. Those guys are getting on and I’d prefer us to build for the future now. They’ll be too over the hill by the time the 2015 RWC rolls along, imo.
As for Hougaard, I truly believe that if he’s allowed to play his natural game and the Boks are not constricted by a limited game-plan we could get the best out of him. We saw in SR how great he was at scrumhalf for the Bulls.
12 Nov 2012, 09:01 am
@katman-63:
to be fair his defense was outstanding and he did win one or two penalties. its his link play and ability on attack which requires work.
and perhaps the speed at which he does things.
12 Nov 2012, 09:01 am
@goodstuff-75: Beast is fit and will play on Saturday. He traveled with the team to Scotland.
12 Nov 2012, 09:02 am
@WP-Forever-78: I would say so. Lobbe has been tremendous all season, probably the form 8 in the world.
12 Nov 2012, 09:02 am
@stormersboy-79:
Thanks for putting into words what I was trying to say.
12 Nov 2012, 09:02 am
@Spiesisworthless1-80: Agreed Hougaard should be second choice to Pienaar with players like Reinach and Van Zyl coming through as third choices.
12 Nov 2012, 09:03 am
@stormersboy-76: Then Mallet must start watching the game too. Show me where in the Irish game Vermeulen stole, or even slowed down the ball.
I’m sick of these urban legends about players that get repeated without half a thought. De Jongh being too small is another one. CJ being a versatile prop is another. Elton being “not ready” is another.
12 Nov 2012, 09:03 am
@stormersboy-79:
It’s a “get out of jail free” card. Typical copout.
Meyer also said they would make South Africa a “fortress” and not lose any home games.
12 Nov 2012, 09:03 am
@katman-77: Lobbe was immense on Saturday.
Didn’t he miss the 4 Nations tournament?
12 Nov 2012, 09:04 am
@stormersboy-30: correct
12 Nov 2012, 09:05 am
@WP-Forever-78: Yep, and Read and Harinodequy and Heaslip.
12 Nov 2012, 09:05 am
@Spiesisworthless1-80: I agree we should forget those guys, but they are lengthining their careers by the little ruggas they play over there. They play half the rugby our players are currently playing.
They might come back with still some milage in the tank.
12 Nov 2012, 09:06 am
On another note, the Elton Jantjies furore of last week now seems utterly childish in the light of the trench battle that was the Irish test.
It’s easy to cry for new talent to be blooded on an end of year tour when wins are taken for granted, but given our performance on end of year tours over the last 10 years, and given the depleted, tired team that we’re taking over, Meyer was entirely correct to go the conservative route as far as his backup selections were concerned.
A storm in a teacup yet again.
12 Nov 2012, 09:06 am
@katman-86: Fair comment. He hardly stood out on Saturday, and yes, I agree with you 100% on the CJ, Elton (a disgrace) and De Jong comments.
How good was Heinke when he came on? Great to see.
12 Nov 2012, 09:06 am
@katman-90: Read is the best 8 by a country mile. So sad that Pierre Spies who is the perfect human specimen could not be on this list. But the man is a girl in a man’s body. Too soft and too bloody delicate.
12 Nov 2012, 09:07 am
@stormersboy-88: Nope played all the games if I recall correctly.
12 Nov 2012, 09:07 am
@stormersboy-88: No, he played. And he was immense.
12 Nov 2012, 09:08 am
@Tacitus-92: The storm was I believe more about JDj but also that a poor form STeyn was selected over a godd in form player.
Steyn is in no stretch of the imagination a better defender than Jantjies. Also light players get gaps much easier in the north. Did you see Earls ghost past Hougard, the man looked nailed to the ground!
12 Nov 2012, 09:08 am
@stormersboy-79:
See post 67.
I’m disappointed that we didn’t get to 75% in year 1. I expected more. But nothing can be done about that.
12 Nov 2012, 09:09 am
@stormersboy-93: Heinke was great. I remember when PDV was still U/21 coach he said that Heinke was the strongest bugger he ever coached.
12 Nov 2012, 09:09 am
@katman-96: Who was it that didn’t want to come over?? I forget now.
12 Nov 2012, 09:09 am
pick Rory Kleinveldt … with Steyn, Morkel & Philander there, how bad can it go? And ANC will be delighted! – one more quota …. then BOOM!!!!!!
12 Nov 2012, 09:09 am
@goodstuff-94: Stick Lobbe in a team like the ABs and he’ll make read look like Warren Brosnihan.
12 Nov 2012, 09:10 am
@stormersboy-100: I don’t know. Did Leguizamon tour? He’s another world class loosie.
12 Nov 2012, 09:10 am
@Sasuke-99: He looks it.
Built like a Staffie.
12 Nov 2012, 09:10 am
@katman-86: I saw the game and Vermeulen did force a penalty by trying to steal the ball and on numerous ocassions added to slowing the ball. I believe the last 20min?
12 Nov 2012, 09:10 am
@Mongril-64: Louw played 7 for years and has many other skills besides being an out and out fetcher. With Biz, Louw and Fourie or Brussouw on the park you’d rule the breakdown. Alberts is not merely a 7, he a hybrid 4/7 similar to Andrew Venter. He has also proven to not have the puff to keep up with test rugby for 60+ minutes at 7. At the moment we have 1 quality lock in SA and an abundance of quality loose forwards. Our loose forwards need to be alot more mobile than they currently are.
12 Nov 2012, 09:10 am
@katman-86:
not treu,
he won one penalty deep in our 22, i cant remember how close to the try line but it was pretty close. and i’m sure he won at least one more in the course of the game.
12 Nov 2012, 09:12 am
@katman-102: If you say so, Lobbe is good, but Read is technically much better and I believe stronger and faster.
Lobbe just has more heart and passion than any sonofbith playing the game, that is for sure, also I think he is an amazing leader.
#1 Read
#2 Lobbe
12 Nov 2012, 09:13 am
Take New Zealand out of the equation – who are in a different league to any other team in the world right now – and we are probably the top team amongst the remaining Tier 1 nations at the moment.
The challenge is to work towards closing the gap with the Kiwis over the next couple of years.
12 Nov 2012, 09:13 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-107: Yup, Katman just bias.
12 Nov 2012, 09:13 am
@katman-103: I can’t remember, we’ve had so much Rugby this year it’s becoming a blur.
There was some controversy about one of them not wanting to tour here.
Eish the brain she’s not yet awake.
12 Nov 2012, 09:14 am
@Tacitus-109: I don’t know, the Frenchies look pretty good at the moment.
Michalak has been transformed by his time at the sharks. Played a blinder against the Deans bragade.
12 Nov 2012, 09:15 am
@stormersboy-100: Refused to play for his national team?
12 Nov 2012, 09:15 am
Interestingly our winning margins against Ireland has never been what most expects it to be. We have had a quite a number of tight ones but Saturday we got out of jail. had the Irish been able to field a full strength team we would’ve been slaughtered.
Katman I agree with your sentiments on DV. Watched him specifically and I cannot see what the so called experts see. Taute at centre…..still to impress me. Not working imo. I liked the 4 and 5 combo we fielded on Saturday. Made a lot more sense than Parkiepiel with Etzebeth.
Lambie had a average game but solid enough barring his kicking that let him down now and again but the pitch was not the greatest either but I reckon HM should give him another shot.
12 Nov 2012, 09:15 am
@Slartibartfast-31: I was under the impression that Jdup was injured. Ruan is also not the answer at 9. With the team I have proposed with players to plan an extremely quick paced game with mobile forwards and attacking backs, Hougaard would be an entirely different prospect. The best thing he could do for his career would be to go play for the Freestate as they would suite his natural style.
12 Nov 2012, 09:16 am
@WP-Forever-84:
its only 9:15, i’m sure you’ll get it out eventually.
12 Nov 2012, 09:16 am
@garth-115: I agree (and have always maintained) with you on Ruan at 9. He’s way too static, doesn’t impress me at all.
12 Nov 2012, 09:17 am
@Sasuke-113: Yes, too tired to go look it up to be honest.
12 Nov 2012, 09:18 am
@KWAGGA ROBERTSE-114:
I couldn’t watch the game, so on Sunday morning I only watched the 2nd half on the recorded version.
Frankly, we completely dominated that half. So if you aren’t influenced by the disappiontment that the poor first half clearly was, and look at the 2nd half as the true state of our team at the moment, then we look much better than the Irish.
If we take the 2nd half form into the Scotland game, I would fancy a 20 point win against them.
And if we can build some cohesiveness in that game, we can take the English on with confidence as well.
12 Nov 2012, 09:19 am
@stormersboy-111: Here as in S.A. I know Leguizamon was injured for a few games.
12 Nov 2012, 09:19 am
@Tacitus-119:
“I couldn’t watch the game, so on Sunday morning I only watched the 2nd half on the recorded version.”
How convenient.
12 Nov 2012, 09:20 am
@Tacitus-119: That explains a lot.
12 Nov 2012, 09:20 am
@WP-Forever-121:
What’s that supposed to mean?
12 Nov 2012, 09:21 am
What did you guys think of Lambie?Should he get another shot?
12 Nov 2012, 09:21 am
@Tacitus-123:
You’re an intelligent person (with two Masters degrees, I believe it is you told us).
I’m sure you can figure out what I’m trying to say.
12 Nov 2012, 09:21 am
@stormersboy-122:
As I said, take the Kiwis out of the equation. They are in a different league.
You think our guys struggled to motivate themselves for this game? Look at how motivated the Aussies were. The fact that we managed to get it together for the second half is a hall of a lot more than the Aussies managed to do in their 33-6 whipping, or whatever the score was.
12 Nov 2012, 09:22 am
@The Beast-124: For sure
12 Nov 2012, 09:22 am
@WP-Forever-125:
Are you implying that I’m lying about not seeing the first half? Or what. Spell it out for me.
12 Nov 2012, 09:22 am
@Tacitus-126:
hall = hell.
12 Nov 2012, 09:25 am
@Tacitus-128:
No.
I’m saying it’s convenient for you not to have seen the first half, which explains your bullish attitude about the current Springbok coach and gameplan.
Nobody is as blind as he who does not want to see.
12 Nov 2012, 09:25 am
We are giving Australia unneccesary momentum here.
12 Nov 2012, 09:27 am
@Sasuke-113: @stormersboy-118: The French have been guilty of refusing to let their foreign players go to play internationals, even after the IRB told them they had to. Might have been an Argie in the french league? I see they claimed one of the Fijian props was injured and couldn’t play against England, and then he ran out for his club (Castres?) on the weekend. Now the IRB have told the club he’s not allowed to play for the duration of the NH internationals.
12 Nov 2012, 09:27 am
@The Beast-124: Yes he should he played well. Jantjies should also get some game time this weekend and Rhule. Maybe 10 or 20 minutes.
12 Nov 2012, 09:30 am
@WP-Forever-130:
So you’re saying that the first half is a true measure of what this team is capable of? Therefore the second half should not be considered?
It seems to me, then, that you are on the lookout for signs of how bad this team could be, whereas I’m looking at how good we could potentially be.
That’s a strange way of thinking, my friend.
12 Nov 2012, 09:30 am
So when we were losing in the first half it was all Meyer’s fault and when we turned it around in the second it was all down to the players?
Where have I heard that before?
12 Nov 2012, 09:31 am
@katman-132: Damn frenchies. So the Rugby Championship clashes with the Domestic European league? This might see some Argentinian players plying their trade in Super Rugby. I wont mind that guy that scored the first or second try against Wales, I think it was Imhoff, great step to leave halfpenny for dead.
12 Nov 2012, 09:31 am
@Tacitus-119: “I couldn’t watch the game, so on Sunday morning I only watched the 2nd half on the recorded version.”
you are such a bullshitter!
now games are cut ‘n paste in to “ignore the 1st half and only concentrate on the 2nd half” bwahahahahahahahaha
how low is your esteem for our coach and team? yoh
12 Nov 2012, 09:32 am
@gunther-135: P Divvy era
12 Nov 2012, 09:33 am
Taute is looking sluggish at 13. You can see he isnt enjoying himself there.
Getting stepped and rounded by everyone because he’s not used to the defensive technicalities of the position.
Put him at 15, JdJ at 13 and put Hougaard on the bench. Those would be the only changes I would make.
Along with Beast returning next week obviously.
12 Nov 2012, 09:35 am
A key factor in performance in rugby in the modern game is not necessarily the amount of possession, but the appropriate use of possession.
Effective play by a team like New Zealand is based on being capable of stringing together complex sequences of play from whatever point of origin of possession. The most effective play in terms of tries scored or penalties obtained is achieved on a team puts together at least two or three phases together.
The All Blacks score most of their points from possession gained on turnovers at the breakdown or from the ruck/maul, or in broken play i.e. counter-attacking from opposition errors, than they do from set-pieces. Defense at set-pieces is much better organised, it is much more likely to score during the second or third or later phases from a set-piece.
The All Blacks approach the game as follows:
- they engage in less ruck/maul situations, but when they do form them, they commit numbers effectively and always produce quick ball.
- when the initial set play produces penetration of the opposition defence, it is more likely that a complex sequence of play will produce effective continuity.
- kicking on attack can either be very effective or extremely ineffective (kicking away possession), if the ball is recovered after the kick, a try is scored approximately 90% of the time (just look at Julian Savea’s second try against the Scots).
The New Zealand coaches always have as a first preoccupation to make the players as effective as possible in broken play. Their players understand the game of movement so that they can understand each other when it comes to tactical decision-making. New Zealand produces players able to adapt their game to the reality of the opposition, with skills, enabling them to assume any role in either attack or defence.
In short, their players are empowered to make their own decisions and play the situation and what is in front of them.
Under Heyneke Meyer, the Springboks do exactly the opposite.
12 Nov 2012, 09:36 am
@Sasuke-136: Ja, both Imhoff and Camacho were in great form.
Saw a feature on Rugbydump about Wales training at the Olympic training centre in Poland – out in the sticks in a forest, with plenty of snow. Very high tec facilities, including these freeze chambers where the players spend 3 and a half minutes at temperatures of minus 170 degrees. God knows how much they spent on their preparation for these internationals, only to get thumped by the Argies.
12 Nov 2012, 09:37 am
@WP-Forever-140:
Most of that comes from a seminal paper by Pierre Villepreux in 1993 called “Decision Making in Rugby”.
12 Nov 2012, 09:37 am
@katman-132: Might have had something to do with that, those Frenchies do have the habit of being a little “annerste”.
12 Nov 2012, 09:38 am
@Transformation-137:
You can go back to the game thread, where I asked guys to keep me posted of events as I wasn’t able to watch the game.
When I heard how events played out, I didn’t feel like sitting through 40 minutes of agony the next morning, so skipped to the second half where by all accounts we actually played pretty well. Which was indeed the case.
Not sure what the bullsh*t is in the above.
12 Nov 2012, 09:39 am
@Tacitus-126: But we shouldn’t be taking them out of the equation, that’s the point. We should be measuring ourselves against them, in all aspects, including motivation.
Let’s not get into the habit of playing for 2nd here.
12 Nov 2012, 09:43 am
@stormersboy-111: leguizamon didn’t play in Cape Town and in Mendoza if i recall correctly…he started only against the All Blacks in Wellington.
12 Nov 2012, 09:44 am
@gunther-135: Got that same kak here yesterday as well. Down the lines of “under JdV the situation was rescued”
Funny how the same dose will not give JdV stick when things are going kak.
Klomp werfetters
12 Nov 2012, 09:44 am
Here’s some more:
“The forwards must first and foremost play like forwards, but also be able to handle and run like backs; conversely, the backs must also be able to drive into the opposition like forwards and guarantee winning or maintaining possession.
Practise
There are three types of practices:
· Technical approach: focus on individual skills
· Fun approach: play from a very individual perspective
· Tactical approach: developing players in a game situation
Technical approach
A technical approach, based on the practice and development of technical
individual, unit and team skills (passing, catching, rucking, mauling, line-out,
scrum, etcetera), leaving the players to discover how these skills are linked
together to produce dynamic play, through the games they play in.
Pleasure
Playing for the pleasure of playing, for example at school in recreation time when there is no direct coaching input: there are no scrums or line outs, just play with the simplest of rules; in this case, individual initiative is very important, but this kind of game will only help the player to develop as an individual, and will do little or nothing to create a total team performance.
Tactical
A tactical approach – the one we are proposing – which requires that the players learn how to play effectively in practice by playing the game itself, both at the level of the beginner and of the high performance player. At all levels, the game in opposition is used to develop the player and the team simultaneously, including both technical and tactical skill development. The technical skill is in fact the outcome of a clear understanding and acceptance of the demands of the game.
Technical skill by itself is of little use, if it is not used at the right time, in the right place and in the right way in the sequence of the game. This tactical and
technical work could be done with a lot of different practices, for example:
The complexity of the exercises is a function of the level of the players’ ability.
The coach creates the initial situation and the problem to be solved; the players respond positively or negatively, and according to his/her perception of how the players perform. The coach must change the level of difficulty of the practice, to make it more or less difficult and complex.
Game situations are related to the:
· Team
· Unit
· Individual
Interpretations of the problems by the players can result in positive or negative actions. The coach gives feedback at this time.
Practices are carried out either just as in the game, or through controlled practices; the objective of these practices is to develop decision-making among the players (ACT-REACT-ADAPT). They include the forms 15 v 15 (with much reduced numbers at the beginner level), forwards against forwards, backs against backs, etcetera, taking into the account that at the beginner level, there no are forwards or backs, just players.
This does not mean that it is not necessary to work to develop the game from set play, but, at this moment, we enter into the area of strategy, which is not the subject of this presentation.”
12 Nov 2012, 09:44 am
@Transformation-146: Thanks. Those Argies all look the same to me.
Like villains from a bad Cheech and Chong movie
12 Nov 2012, 09:46 am
@stormersboy-145: Very true. Show me a happy loser and I’ll show a born loser. Tweede tel fokkol, vra maar n bokser.
12 Nov 2012, 09:46 am
@katman-141:
I heard the commentators speaking about it during the game. The Rugby World needs to watch out We (Sanzar) have created a monster! With the Frenchies coming up it will be 2 from 2 for the Argies.
12 Nov 2012, 09:47 am
It’s good to have WikiForever back.
12 Nov 2012, 09:48 am
@149 stop talking kuk about Argies all looking the same.
Racist
12 Nov 2012, 09:50 am
And lay off Tac
He never watches games in their entirety
12 Nov 2012, 09:51 am
@Sasuke-151:
People criticize risk based thinking as overly conservative and insular, but it really is just looking further ahead than everyone else.
People say developing the game in Japan, the USA and Argentina is visionary thinking and that it will good for the sport, I say it is short sighted and in 20 years time it will relegate us to insignificance as all our top players go and play there, and these countries will overtake us.
Far better to be top dog amongst 7 nations, than of middling strength amongst 20 strong nations. Argentina may just prove that to us sooner rather than later.
12 Nov 2012, 09:53 am
Since the introduction of Nienaber both the Stormers and Boks attacking instincts have been diluted.
I think its in the mindset and Province appeared to have turned things around in the CC.
The Sharks under Plum don’t seem to have the same issues but are still able to be a very effective defensive unit.
What the AB’s do effectively is counter punch after a turnover when the defense is not aligned with the OFFLOAD used as the main distrubution tool.
The Boks/HM 1st instinct is to recycle and gain forward dominance which is 19 voetsek rugby.
12 Nov 2012, 09:54 am
Traditionally South African rugby coaching philosophy – from the lowest levels – has been the notion of “bigger is better”, that we win matches through superior physicality.
From a young age players are indoctrinated with the idea that effective rugby play is the ability to run over opposition players. Crash balls and fend-offs are celebrated.
Rugby coaches enforce that stigma, from primary school level and further.
And now Heyneke Meyer, for all intents and purposes prior to his involvement at the Bulls a high school coach (the man holds a BA(PT) with Geography and Psychology, a BA (Hons) in Geography and a Higher Education Diploma, after all) is enforcing that very same age-old philosophy (interestingly enough, Jake White, himself a former teacher, did the same).
The problem for Springbok rugby is that, whereas our physicality was a competitive advantage in times gone by, the rest of the world has caught up in that area.
We have not evolved.
12 Nov 2012, 09:54 am
@The Beast-124:
no, he was pants.
however, its also about learning what all the fh options have to offer so we might as well see what jantjes can do.
12 Nov 2012, 09:55 am
I see that Adam Thomson could be out of the AB tour.
Never saw the stomping on the head incident, but apparently coach Steve rekons that it looks worse on TV than it actually was.
Thats bad luck for them, as citing commissioner will certainly look at it on TV.
12 Nov 2012, 09:56 am
@Jeraldjay-156:
“What the AB’s do effectively is counter punch after a turnover when the defense is not aligned with the OFFLOAD used as the main distrubution tool.”
Absolutely.
Quick turnover ball, two to three phases thereafter against disorganised defensive lines, and they score.
12 Nov 2012, 09:56 am
It doesnt seem like the backline players are coached to do the basics right. No offloads and not once did they swing the ball through the hands to the wing. Set moves hardly work and the ABs hardly do them, they just do the basics brilliantly. Suck in defenders, perfect offload timing, running and looking for space. JDV just tried to bulldoze his way forward every time he got the ball, so did JPP and he’s a wing!
Dr Craven said, after getting the ball for the first time, the backline should put the ball through the hands and try to get it to the wing. The reason for this is to size up the oppositions reaction time and to settle the backline players, so they get a feel for receiving the ball and the pace of the game. That begin done they can strike with the next opportunity when the ball comes each players way, without getting too excited and making mistakes..
The boks dont look confident with ball in hand and imo that confidence will come when they do the basics well and Im talking about the basics of a great backline team like the ABs. How do we get to that level? WORLD CLASS BACKLINE COACHING !!! Which we dont have…. HM should realise this and make the right changes. And JDV surely cant be accommodated anymore… and Taute is not a center!
12 Nov 2012, 09:58 am
Its clear that SAs backline standards have never been close to that of the Aussie or Kiwi teams, so that must surely be an indication that our backline coaching in SA is not up to standards. And it doesnt seem like we have been doing anything to change that. Until that changes HM should recruit a Kiwi or Aussie backline coach… like when he appointed Todd Louden… White’s backline was reborn under Eddie Jones’ guidance… Its clear that if we want to be a great attacking team, we need some help to be the best we can be. SA coaches just dont have the credentials to achieve this…
12 Nov 2012, 10:01 am
As predicted it was ugly but we came through, though forwards finally started cleaning and protecting the ball in the 2nd half.
Otherwise comments on the main issues – Lambie kicking at poles is not solid, however he did not get clean ball in space.
JDV – did good but he is looking old and tired.
Taute, sorry not a 13 and needs to bench or start at 15
Kirch again did ok, no counter or joining the line ..
JPP good to have him back, the yellow was deserved however.
FH – he did a few good bits but a player who needs ball with space, rather him than mvovo for me, maybe Rhule can get some gametime ?
Flo was the Bok player of the day, intelligent and tough .. our Reeche in the making. Maybe make him capt ??????
Vermulet did a lot of hard graft, turned over and covered for a very tired Alberts who should be benched with Coetzee or Arno getting gametime.
Props did ok, CJ is not bok material wtf is he doing there ?
Well played Strauss and pienaar did ok considering this was a “home” game for him now.
Others all did ok, first half was the worst performance I have seen for quite some time.
GET RID OF LOUBSCHER AND ATTCAK COACH !!
12 Nov 2012, 10:02 am
@Jeez-162:
It’s a change in mindset that will take decades to fix.
We need to teach our kids from a young age to think for themselves and not employ a De Wet Barry mindset which is essentially a dichotomy:
1) If I have the ball – CRASH BALL!
2) If the opposition player has the ball – TACKLE!
I have said before that I think there are essential training methods not being employed. Five-down touch rugby, for example, is an excellent training tool.
12 Nov 2012, 10:05 am
@BULLET-159: That’s the thing with AB offenses – they always look worse on TV than they are. But only the AB ones. The rest are actually that bad.
12 Nov 2012, 10:06 am
@katman-165:
Another “Free Kevvie” campaign coming up?
12 Nov 2012, 10:08 am
@WP-Forever-160:
The Whitelock try at Soccercity is the perfect example.
When you attack and you loose possession the players are immediately pissed off and the team goes into a negative mindset but at the same time the opposition is moving the ball around without going to ground and you chasing shadows.
We have the loosies and Bissy when he gets back to turnover possession even more efffectively than the AB’s but lack creative instinct (which has been brainwashed out of us) and believe that by regrouping and creating another phase we can bash our way to the tryline.
12 Nov 2012, 10:11 am
@Jeraldjay-167:
I think that the first babystep is offloading in the tackle. That already increases forward momentum 10 fold.
Let’s not go for end running rugby from day 1. Just add offloading in the tackle to what we’re doing now, and by year 3 we can move to the next step.
12 Nov 2012, 10:14 am
@gunther-152:
Hi Gunther, I noted that you were not as vocal about the cricket today as you were on Friday. What is wrong
12 Nov 2012, 10:15 am
@Robzim-169:
It’s boring.
Are you wearing your Ozzie hat today?
12 Nov 2012, 10:15 am
@Robzim-169:
Oh, just one of the worst selection decisions in recent memory.
12 Nov 2012, 10:16 am
@Jeraldjay-156: “Since the introduction of Nienaber both the Stormers and Boks attacking instincts have been diluted”
when were the Boks an enterprising attacking force, when AC was backline coach?
12 Nov 2012, 10:19 am
@gunther-170:
Lol, not really…. seems like the much vaunted pace attack is pretty toothless on a docile track… despite Mickey Arthur trying his best to motivate them with his pre- match comments.
12 Nov 2012, 10:20 am
@Jeraldjay-156: “What the AB’s do effectively is counter punch after a turnover when the defense is not aligned with the OFFLOAD used as the main distrubution tool”
it’s a mindset coupled with the requisite skill set…think Perth where the Bokke fluffed about 3 tries with the most blatant being where morne ignores a 3 on 2 overlap with both de villiers and habana left with the ioane to beat and he cut back inside to get tackled by 3 Aussies…
12 Nov 2012, 10:20 am
@WP-Forever-166: At the very least, a concerted PR drive to inform us what a good bloke Thompson is. How he’s one of the most liked people in his team, his street and his family, and how the worst thing he’s ever done prior to stomping on someone’s head, was to not mow a meter of the nieghbour’s pavement while he was out there mowing his own – something he regrets deeply and has since made up for by picking up the neighbour’s dogshit from the pavement REGARDLESS on which side it was dumped. That, along with testimonials from Kevvie and Tana, should stand him in good stead with the citing commission.
12 Nov 2012, 10:21 am
@BULLET-159: it wasn’t vicious but it was boot to the head no doubt…
12 Nov 2012, 10:23 am
@Doughnut-163: Vermeulen was no where he did not even carry the ball once, he did not pick up the ball behind scrum. In terms of Read he is way off.@Transformation-172: So thats why the Strompies scored 17 tries in S15.
12 Nov 2012, 10:24 am
@WP-Forever-164: Bring in Jan Serfontein
12 Nov 2012, 10:25 am
@WP-Forever-166:
Poops and Hurricane are having the T-shirts printed as we speak.
12 Nov 2012, 10:27 am
@Transformation 176:
Thanks.
I agree with you, any contact with boots on head, eyes (aka Schalk) and mouth/biting, deserves red’s and some serious banning.
Vicious or not, thats the only way to eradicate this.
12 Nov 2012, 10:29 am
@katman-175:
Steven Hansen: “I don’t think it was a stomping personally but it’s not for me to decide.”
If the Kevvie saga is anything to go by, they’ll start developing a case that Alasdair Strokosch provoked Thompson by insulting his family moments before he was stomped (despite it not being a stomping).
Steve Hansen will come out with another statement, along the lines of: “We were always intending to play him and we hope we can. He’s a very important part of our team. He’s a top man, he’s got very high personal standards – he sees himself as a role model for young people. He’s a bit destroyed about what’s happened. Once the appeal is over, hopefully we’ll get a positive result and move on.”
12 Nov 2012, 10:30 am
@WP-Forever-164:
Somethings gotta give… Just look at the Stormers… They appointed Flecky after he had a season or two at UCT… Is that the best coach the Stormers could have appointed? Does he have the same kind of credentials than the other super rugby backline coaches? Look at their attacking record…its awful with the fewest bonus points of all the teams.
Mediocre backline coaching is accepted and thats why we are never going to be world leaders in this department… Its come ta a point were I believe SA backline coaches should get their education abroad/ down under… SA is part of the southern hemisphere and we should be just as potent with our backline play. The lions just showed how foreign coaches can add to their attacking play.
HM should contact his old friend Todd Louden and offer him a job!
See Todd Louden’s credentials and compare that to Fleck’s for example….
Todd Louden’s profile : Todd taught at Waverley College and Trinity Grammar School in Sydney for over ten years before becoming a professional coach. He was the Director of Rugby for three seasons at Sydney University prior to coaching in Japan for another three seasons.
Todd returned to Australia as the Head Coach at Randwick in 2006 and played Sydney University in the Grand Final. He was offered a position with the South African Super Rugby franchise the Bulls as the attack coach and the team went on to be the first South African team to win the Super Rugby title in 2007.
In 2008 Todd was made the attack coach with the Waratahs and the team played the final against the Crusaders. After this Todd returned to Japan as the Director of Rugby and Head Coach of the RICOH rugby team for three seasons where he took the club from 2nd Division to the Top League and competed in the All Japan tournament twice.
Todd has returned to where it all started, Sydney University, where he has a passion for developing the club and players.
12 Nov 2012, 10:32 am
Losing jp as well as oz getting off the hook with that rain day has been a hammer blow in this test, ….with the current run rate we will do well to get out of this game intact.
12 Nov 2012, 10:43 am
@capebull-178: You said it already ….and were ignored.
12 Nov 2012, 10:45 am
@WP-Forever-52: Massive in cc final.
Invisiblethis test.As was DV Having said that do believe we will never
see them have so quiet again.Maybe I was spoiled by Bakkies enforcer role.
EE did no enforcing.
12 Nov 2012, 10:46 am
@ryecatcher-185: Have so quiet a game
12 Nov 2012, 10:47 am
@Tacitus-168: “Just add offloading in the tackle to what we’re doing now, and by year 3 we can move to the next step.”
currently we are so predictable on attack and it was evident in saturday’s game – both halves – like it has this whole season! one-off runners getting smothered, mugged or slowed down but our coach reasons that “we must FORCE our archaic gameplan” on the opposition.
12 Nov 2012, 10:49 am
@WP-Forever-181: funny stuff!
12 Nov 2012, 10:49 am
@katman-77: What a player
12 Nov 2012, 10:54 am
@wnbb-184: Hopefully HM will not ignore it. I want to understand what you guys see in Vermeulen , I see mediocrity. Like with Morne , we can not accept it.
Flo was great , Alberts look tired , but when I say Vermeulen did nothing , that’s not seen.
Our centres seem to be big problem, they can not even get 1 ball to wings.
AB’s was pleasure to watch, Bokke was painfull
12 Nov 2012, 10:54 am
I must admit, I was immensely impressed with the Irish home crowd in that they were silent when the kickers were lining up.
If only we could have the same in South Africa.
Here, our crowds can’t even keep quiet during a minute of silence being observed in honour of some deceased person.
Speaking of which, it is good to see that Remembrance Day is still commemorated by so many people.
12 Nov 2012, 10:54 am
@Jeez-161: @Jeez-182: YES. Appoint a quality back-line coach Heyneke FFS. Make your job easier and make all of our rugby lives easier. Why must we SUFFER under Loubscher and Van Graan?!?
Btw, I think Heyneke did approach Louden already but he declined the offer.
Still, there are a host of quality guys out there who can immense value to the Bok backline and attacking play. Campese for one seems to be very interested in getting involved with coaching and would jump at the chance to coach the Boks. His earlier involvement with SA teams was his hugely successful stint with the Sharks in 2007.
12 Nov 2012, 10:56 am
@Transformation-187: 0/20 Bokkies have seem to found balance , between force play and running
12 Nov 2012, 10:58 am
I see the usual haters having a go at DV again?Don’t know what game they were watching.DV had an immense game on Saturday;great defending,ball carrying,slowing down the Irish ball,and even a few turnovers at the breakdown.Great player in my opinion.A farking massive improvement on Lillets Spies.
12 Nov 2012, 10:59 am
In any case. to use an anology. i’m banking the titration effect.
A titration curve is a curve in the plane whose x-coordinate is the volume of titrant added since the beginning of the titration, and whose y-coordinate is the concentration of the analyte at the corresponding stage of the titration.
In short…. everything looks a bit murky now… but with a few changes here and there.. a little bit of this and some of that.. the plan and future for bok rugby will become clear once again.
The scrum is obviously the first thing the Boks are nearly getting right. Even if Alberts and Vermeulen were not too flash over the weekend. Don’t know if they were working so hard in the tight that they were did a Spies. Juandre too. Strauss hard worker. honorable player and all that, not a Bismarck.
Backline not one sub. interesting. who knows what HM is thinking. But then again, if he tells us, then he would be telling the world too. Tough job that.
12 Nov 2012, 11:01 am
@capebull-190: Let’s rather focus on what we DON’T see with Vermeulen there…
We don’t see:
120 kg’s of marshmallow being dragged by a itty bitty little 60kg fullback on the way to tryline…
120 kg’s of marshmallow tripping over a blade of grass as he crabs sideways across the field…..
120 kg’s of marshmallow running away from ANY sign of contact, as fast as he possibly can (also sideways)
120 kg’s of marshmallow being flattened by a cocky No 9 who stops, turns rounds and runs over the marshmallow again – just because he can
PS: Spies gifts turnovers: Duane wins them. The end.
12 Nov 2012, 11:01 am
@WP-Forever-191: who cares if the crowd boo. I have no problem with that. Unless it’s on my backswing.
12 Nov 2012, 11:04 am
@shooter-197:
I have a serious problem with it.
12 Nov 2012, 11:04 am
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-196: hahaha.I was just,as I was reading your post, beginning to wonder who is this marshmallow .
12 Nov 2012, 11:08 am
@wnbb-199: I’ll give you another clue. He is a PINK marshmallow
12 Nov 2012, 11:09 am
@WP-Forever-198: i really don’t.
12 Nov 2012, 11:10 am
Jeepers but Linkin Park was brilliant!
Atmosphere was lekker crazy aswell.
They well exceeded my expectations.
12 Nov 2012, 11:11 am
Well at least we won! The lineouts were solid and Etxebeth could have been mom, as against the Sharks. Not that the Boks used the ball he won that wisely. Scrums so-so; defence better; I think Taute was ok on defence and probably why he was picked. Kirchner was solid under the high ball and there in defence. Attack; not so much. JdV has got a surprising amount of energy and strength left after a long cc. He made metres, just needed to offload quickly to a flier – Habana, Petersen, Hougaard, JdJ etc. Lambie ok but not the wunderkind; he just needs time and TRAINING; the proper thing; not from some retreaded kick and chaser. The Boks are not bigger, heavier, harder and stronger than their opposition anymore; only the ****.
Tac is funny; there is little sign that Meyer has a grip on test rugby. If another key man gets injured, say Etzebeth, Alberts, Vermeulen, even Pienaar it will be tougher. I think he needs to rest a few players and use his full bench against the Squats. But the new boys must start flat out but sensible, not the dawdle as against the Oirish in the frist half (or the Sharks in the cc). Remember that Reechie is getting a year off to rest, ‘roid, EPO, HGH etc.
Interesting to see what happens to Thompson. Was it Vermeulen who was a little lucky to not be seen when he dropped his knee into Sexton? I also saw that the Oirish were up to a bit of gratuitous raking of a Bok back, well away from the ball, on ocassion in the rucks.
We’ll have to watch them Pommies.
12 Nov 2012, 11:12 am
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-196: Good morning lady
12 Nov 2012, 11:13 am
@husky-203: with lambie, it was great just seeing an SA 10 who tackled!!
12 Nov 2012, 11:17 am
@Fern-202: Bloody brilliant wasn’t it? I’m sure the Jozi gig was better than the CT one though. The wind really screweditup a little down here. (And the tragedy at the venue as well of course).
They are frikking whacked on stage.
@ryecatcher-204: Top of the morning (almost afternoon) to you kind sir
12 Nov 2012, 11:18 am
Some interesting thoughts here.
My 2 mandela cents.
Rugby is a pro-sport – start there. In pro rugby **** gets real, things are tough, and only the best survive.
Our rugby currently allows for too much mediocre talent to come through the ranks and parade around like pro sports people. Same goes for coaches in this country, it seems to be managed as an old-boys club where mostly ex-players are allowed into the highest spheres of the game.
Because space is limited at the top, only a few will ever make it. But if 1 mediocre player or coach takes up that spot chances are we let the real talent slip through.
On the mindset of coaches – if you were coached in that vein and you have not actively studied modern trends or opened yourself up to new ideas and thinking, chances are you are going to coach players the same way you were coached – we need a new generation of thinkers.
We need specialised programs in schools to identify top talent. This will include SARU and government to get involved – and with transformation that will always be an issue, we need that in government schools. It should be part of the curriculum, students should be encouraged to get active or get involved in sport in any which way they can.
Excellence starts with kids who are impressionable. Just like we go through schooling to see who are most likely to become the best scientists, doctors, or whatever professional, we need to adopt this at school level.
And for **** sakes let’s make sport fun again for kids. One just has to go to any school derby to see how much pressure is put on these kids.
12 Nov 2012, 11:19 am
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-196: we need a mobile 8 who seamlessly links between backs and forwards giving us metres in momentum ie, dominates contacts and shifts points of attack buy not ALWAYS going to ground…a guy with the requisite skill set to mix it with the backs without stifling the moves, see messam & read.
12 Nov 2012, 11:22 am
Biggest problem in the backs is we have very few players that can actually beat defendes one on one. Quite a few of the tries NZ scored were down to Dan Carter beating an oncoming Scottish defender with deft footwork and then simply offloading.
We just have crashballers, with possibly only Hougaard who actually has footwork. The Irish were clearly trying to step us with Earls and Zebo and a few others. Until we get the balance right between having a few big strong carrying backs and a few stepping players with better lines we wont see any better backline play.
12 Nov 2012, 11:26 am
@Transformation-208: Duane will never be that type of 8, and even his biggest praise singers know this. (Like myself…)
He does offer more than Spies though.
12 Nov 2012, 11:27 am
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-206:
I stood in line for 2 hours to buy some merchandise and it was worth it.
Awesome live act.
Pity they did not play “Crawling”,but no complaints really.
Weather turned out perfect aswell.
I am sure they will be back sooner than later.
12 Nov 2012, 11:31 am
All this talk about how ineffective our back line is! Now one of the problems here (obviously not the only problem) is the inability of our loosies to link up with the back line and more to the point the lack of skill and attacking ability by our loosies.
Now if we had the likes of 8 Kieran Read, 7 Richie McCaw, 6 Liam Messam playng, our back line would look a much better unit!
12 Nov 2012, 11:32 am
@Fern-211: I know when they were in CT they said they were shocked at the size of their SA fan base, and the levels of excitement their visit generated.
I reckon a lot of these ‘bigger acts’ are shocked more often than not as what they find over here
The RHCP’s are going to be blown away by what THEY find out here.
12 Nov 2012, 11:37 am
I was too late for RHCP tickets,but thats fine.
Would never watch lady gaga or adam lambert.
saw bon jovi yonks ago in dbn and they are good aswell.
12 Nov 2012, 11:44 am
@Fern-214: I’m keen to see Bon Jovi again. They rocked when they were here in the 90′s.
But looking helluva forward to the RHCP’s.
12 Nov 2012, 11:47 am
@PissAnt-207: PA, I don’t have a problem if ex-players coach. I feel they can bring a lot to the party, but they need to attend some coaching courses as well. I know Gert Smal did that when he started coaching. When I started coaching I did the Level 1 and 2 courses through Western Province in 2003 and 2004. I played quite a few seasons of 1ste league club rugby, but what did I know about coaching ? That’s why I attended the coaching courses in order to teach the young boys in the correct manner. A few years ago, the IRB started to standardise coaching and to present IRB coaching courses. I did the IRB Level 2 from November 2010 to 2011. I now wanted to enroll for the Level 3 but my union has to make a recommendation to SARU that I’m a suitable candidate. In the mean time I’ve heard that an ex-Bok that played his last first class match in 2011, is currently enrolled for the IRB Level 3 course. This pi+#es me off. I want to improve my coaching but I am prevented from doing it by the bureaucrats !!
12 Nov 2012, 11:56 am
@CharlesM-216:
Not all ex-players are bad coaches I agree, but it almost seems that there is a belief in SA that all ex-players can be great coaches! Same with rugby commentators on SuperSport but that is a different discussion…
What you experienced is exactly what I am referring to mate. I had similar experiences. Your road is just so much harder if you did not represent a union at some stage of your life. It’s like being in the right school before you are considered for Craven Week.
12 Nov 2012, 11:56 am
@Spiesisworthless1-192:
Yeah wouldnt mind if Campese got involved! Anyone who is a top backline coach will be welcome! SA backline coaches are just not the best the boks deserve.
12 Nov 2012, 11:57 am
@Transformation-208: Amen Brother
12 Nov 2012, 11:58 am
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-210: Barely
12 Nov 2012, 12:00 pm
@PissAnt-217: I agree !!@Jeez-218: Meyer will never get Campese involved. That’s why he has appointed “yes men”. Campo would obviously like a more expansive approach to which HM will not agree. It is a pity though that we don’t have any creativity in the coaching staff !!
12 Nov 2012, 12:07 pm
@CharlesM-221: Charles , I think you are a bit unfaiur here. HM wanted to make a lot of different appointments , SARU emplyed him in Febr , with all best coaches already in jobs. The Bulls were the only province ready to release coaches from contracts.
He appointed Louden at Bulls years ago, and we don’t know what SARU says about BEE in staffing coaches.
Interesting that Campo , coached in Auz was kicked out, coached at Sharkies was kicked out , why ?
12 Nov 2012, 12:10 pm
@LoanShark-212: Play Flo 6, Marcell 7 and Arno 8 , you will see fire-works against Scotts
12 Nov 2012, 12:12 pm
@capebull-222: Maybe I am but when HM says there is only a plan A and no plan B, you can’t but wonder why ? I am not necessarily saying it should be Campo (he might be too outspoken) but I can’t believe there was nobody else available.
I have to admit though that SARU took way too much time with the appointment. Then again, it is almost par for the course (SARU’s course)
12 Nov 2012, 12:15 pm
@CharlesM-221:
The playing style/game plan will always be up to the head coach, but Im sure HM can still appoint a quality coach (with more experience and better credentials) to get the basic skills up to international (NZ & Aus) standard… and get the backs doing the basics brilliantly. That will give them a lot more confidence to attack the gain line when the opportunities come around….
12 Nov 2012, 12:17 pm
@CharlesM-221: If he wont appoint a foreign coach, there are other guys like Alan Zondagh, Carel Du Plessis ect who could add to the backline’s success…
12 Nov 2012, 12:19 pm
@Jeez-226: Yes, but I suppose it all depends on the length of his deputies’ contracts. He can’t fire them and get new guys in at will.
I am out gents: enjoy the day
12 Nov 2012, 12:21 pm
@CharlesM-224: No one knows why they did not act straight after WC, for me get the best man.
I think HM is great with motivating players , Rassie should work on game plan, and they must get 2 coaches front and backs to impliment them. Then you have special coaches , scrums , defence , kicking,
Do you really believe there is such a thing as a plan B in Rugby ?
Take all the teams at moment, Lions/ Cheetas run everything , Wp tackle everything , Bulls kick chase, Sharkies play with forwards and counter with lose ball. I did not see any of them being able to play different when the pressure was on , thats why you lose games cause you can not asapt when your gameplan fails.
12 Nov 2012, 12:27 pm
What more can I say?
The Meyer game plan cannot work against the best in the world; his paradigm and approach will result in the Bok game regressing over the next while.
We have the talent but coached incorrectly.
Look at what a different Gary Kirsten has made with the Proteas- fair enough it’s work in progress but overall the side has improved significantly.
Meyer is a Bulls rugby guy; he needs to be in that environment; the international scene will simply expose his flawed thinking.
12 Nov 2012, 12:33 pm
@Sheriff-229: Ok Sherrif lets fire HM and appoint who?
12 Nov 2012, 12:55 pm
@capebull-230:
I think we need to give Toetie (Allister Coetzee) a chance.
Meyer’s rhetoric will not change: dominate collisions, strong and big ball carriers etc; the challenge is his fundamental and private beliefs and understanding of rugby.
I think Meyer’s talents must be used to establish infrastructure; Afrikaners are good with that sort of thing, structure. But in this game of constant movement he will not move the game forward.
Toetie’s teams have made it to various play-offs and only this year did he rid himself of the shackles and a team of no-names beat a team loaded with Springboks. Therefore, as he has shown himself to be willing to move on from ‘defence will win the game’ he deserves a chance.
Toetie also demonstrated that his teams are integrated and so that will also bring an end to this ‘Ons Afrikaners is die grootste in die wereld’ syndrome.
SA can only benefit.
12 Nov 2012, 13:00 pm
@Sheriff-231: It took Toetie 4 years to win the cc. The Strompies have tackled the life out of any rugby , the tries scored per game consistantly went down from 3.2 in 2009 to 1.7 in 2012. So why would you pick a coach like that . They play more like the Bulls does themselves.
12 Nov 2012, 13:04 pm
Can people please stop complementing Zane Kirchner for being “solid.” He was anything but that. He got penalised for holding on too long, always ran into the traffic, never passed the ball when an overlap was on, kicked possession away and running after it like a headless chicken and above all of that, nearly got found out of position. I cannot see any reason to have him in the team. He’s been absolutely useless from the moment he started. He’s on borrowed time.
12 Nov 2012, 13:06 pm
@Sheriff-229:
Imo there isnt a better coach at the mo to take over from HM… I do believe he just needs to get the balance right and he needs more time. Appointing a better backline/skills coach will be a step in the right direction
12 Nov 2012, 13:15 pm
@capebull-232:
Given the opportunity he will in all likelihood surround himself with people that can add to his views.
As head coach you no longer teach the guys to catch the ball in the line-out but rather give input on strategic matters: putting together the right combos, game plan, player management
For example: you should under no circumstances sit and bark into a walkie talkie; that is criminal. You do not need to know everything single little detail:
E.g. Assistant: ‘Coach, Jannie se broek het hier by sy gat oopgeskeur, kan ons vir hom ‘n ander broek reel?’
of “Coach, Heinke is dors, kan ons vir hom water vat?’
Coach HM: ‘ Is reg’
12 Nov 2012, 13:20 pm
@Jeez-234:
To prefer Meyer as coach can be likened to prefer an ossewa (ox wagon) to any sedan like a Toyota Corolla
The ox wagon will probably get to where he needs to, but how long will he take?
In an increasingly globalised world things happen fast.
12 Nov 2012, 13:35 pm
@bryce_in_oz-2: @Slartibartfast-3:
People asked the same question about Lance Klusener when he was pummeled by Azhar on his debut in India. He returned in the 2nd innings to take 8 wickets.
Remember???
“Can see it already: I have egg on my face but that’s OK.”
12 Nov 2012, 13:42 pm
@The Sharks rugby pedigree is packaged as dog food-200: Well said, Vermulen may not be flash but he is solid and puts his body on the line. He has had an off colour Alberts alongside him … would like to see ABotha get some game time ..
Reminds me Spies was carried by Juan and Shalk in their prime !! Imagine had we a Vermulen then ?
12 Nov 2012, 13:53 pm
@pattyfries-233:
That would be like complementing Vermeulen for being solid?
12 Nov 2012, 14:17 pm
447 runs in 95 overs in the day without any bowler even taking a wicket.
WOW
Kleinveld actually had a much better day with the ball today than yesterday. His figures for today was 0/54 in 14 overs (3.9 rpo) compared to 0/27 in 3 overs
(9 rpo). Not too bad if you keep in mind that the Aussies scored at 4.7rpo throughout the day.
Still has much to improve on though.
12 Nov 2012, 14:55 pm
@Doughnut-238: That would have been a night mare.@LoanShark-239: Agreed , its a huge over statement , rather play Keegan
12 Nov 2012, 16:16 pm
@Sheriff-236: He’s got the best record of all the coaches therefore he deserves a shot and support up to a certain point. And considering that its only his first year, stating that other SA coaches COULD do better is folly and short sited if you ask me.
12 Nov 2012, 18:15 pm
(L)
:@
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