Hore set for hefty ban
26 Nov 2012
New Zealand hooker Andrew Hore has been cited for an off-the-ball incident which subsequently hospitalised Wales lock Bradley Davies.
Hore hit Davies off the ball during the initial stages of last Saturday’s Test in Cardiff. The incident was missed by matchday officials, but Hore has now been cited and looks likely to receive a lengthy suspension.
The time and date of the hearing, before the IRB’s appointed independent judicial officer, have yet to be fixed.
All Blacks coach Steve Hansen expects the hooker to be sidelined for some time. Hansen did not say as much, but has already called for a replacement ahead of the coming Test against England.
Dane Coles is expected to start at Twickenham.
30,244 Comments
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16 Dec 2012, 00:30 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-14149:
stop being bloody stupid man.. or are you a woman? what kind of insecure weakling are you that throws up his (or her) hand and says I’m too weak and attached to my barbaric conditioning to stop inflicting suffering for the sake of my conditioned blood lust.. are you goddamn insane.. have you not learned ANYTHING about life and what it is and what it means to be at the top rung or echelon of creation where you can rationalize and use nature given discretion about whether you inflict suffering for your own insatiable bloodthirsty ends or NOT..?..
and these bloody imbeciles STILL believe they are ‘civilized’
16 Dec 2012, 00:41 am
@skopdiekan-14151:
its only suffering if the animal is distressed isn’t it?
its really just a subjective interpretation of how we should behave on the basis of our evolved intelligence.
in the same way my opposing view is equally subjective. nature, and the universe, when considered objectively, has no morally right or wrong way/rule for how intelligent animals should treat lesser intelligent animals.
we make up the rules.
and to this end we at least attempt to treat these lesser intelligent animals as ‘humanely’ as possible while they alive and when we kil them.
16 Dec 2012, 00:43 am
this is really shaping up to be a massacre:
The Ross Taylor captaincy saga has inadvertently exposed a wider malaise within New Zealand Cricket that extends back to Chris Moller’s appointment as chairman in August 2010.
The Herald on Sunday has been bombarded with tales of disillusionment as more investigations probe the problems besetting the sport’s governing body. Sources within the organisation described the atmosphere as toxic.
The following unreported difficulties can be revealed to stand next to the well-documented opprobrium generated since the Taylor-Mike Hesson captaincy misunderstanding erupted.Mark Greatbatch underwent a mediation process after the 2011 World Cup which almost led to court after he lost his job as coach.Martin Crowe was asked to apply to be a board member by Moller in November 2010 then was not deemed qualified.Board member Stephen Boock was teed up to manage the New Zealand team post-World Cup but mysteriously missed out; he was appeased with the NZC presidency.
Sources say Greatbatch was promised two years as chairman of selectors on a hand-shake deal with former chief executive Justin Vaughan in return for passing the coach role to John Wright in December 2010.
However, once John Buchanan was signed as director of cricket in April 2011, Greatbatch was out of a job.
Greatbatch took NZC to mediation and they gave him an interim six-month role as national selection manager. He was replaced by Kim Littlejohn from Bowls Australia in September 2011 after the role went to an interview process.
Vaughan denies there was a ‘hand-shake deal’. He says it is simply not true.
Greatbatch cannot comment on the mediation process due to its confidential nature. However, it makes his quotes at the time more telling. In June 2011, he said: “I’m helping them [NZC] out at the moment so we’ll see how it goes. It would be nice to have two to three months in the role, that’s when they’re probably looking to advertise it. We’ll see from there.”
Vaughan confirmed he could not comment on the agreement between the parties.
As well, he was unsure if Crowe was offered a place on the board in November 2010. He recalls Crowe “happily” accepting a role on the newly formed NZC ‘cricket committee’ which sought a solution to problems after New Zealand’s 4-0 ODI series loss in Bangladesh.
It is understood Crowe went through the board selection process but was rejected. By April he had also resigned from the cricket committee because of the conflict of interest in appointing Daniel Vettori’s successor as captain. Crowe was already mentoring Ross Taylor.
In the case of former test cricketer Boock seeking the manager job, he was allegedly miffed when pushed aside in favour of former Blues rugby manager Mike Sandle in July 2011. Moller is believed to have negotiated the NZC president role for Boock by way of appeasement, “shafting Nelson’s Jock Sutherland sideways”, as it was put by a Herald on Sunday source.
Chairman Moller, 58, described by another source as “the ultimate political animal”, is off limits to comment for now; he has fronted for a solitary captaincy crisis cameo to date.
Vaughan defends the actions of the former New Zealand Rugby Union chief executive in the captaincy shambles.
“I found him really capable. He has deep experience as a CEO and appreciates the issues they face. A lot has been made of Chris not fronting but, in fairness, he has never been one to seek the limelight. He always made it clear that matters of the playing XI and contracting processes were not board decisions.
“You can argue the captaincy is slightly different. Yes, the board do not select the team but the captaincy has a wider scope and public profile.
“I would add that the board and CEO are also responsible for finances and grassroots cricket, both of which are going well. New Zealand Cricket is not just about the Black Caps … and that is the area you have the least impact over. In the end, it seems NZC’s performance and reputation rests with just 11 players scoring runs and taking wickets.”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10854332
16 Dec 2012, 00:55 am
ok i’m out
will pick up in the morning
cheers
16 Dec 2012, 01:00 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-14152:
why don’t you put yourself in the conscious animals skin and then come with all that gobbledegook rationality about how ‘subjective’ the act of KILLING is… you pathetic excuse of an irrational non thinking non reasoning uncivilized cold blooded murderer.. you think that nature is so forgiving that you can get away with inflicting harm and death dispassionately and indiscriminately for the sake of your insatiable blood lust..
and don’t come talk to me with this pathetic irrational subjective entitlement you cling to as your excuse for inflicting death and suffering.. for as ye sow ye reap.. for every action in creation there is an equal and opposite reaction.. for every eye for eye and tooth for tooth reactionary inviolable law of recompense your turn is staring you in your unsuspecting face.. as much as you think it is your RIGHT to cower behind subjective conditioned irrationality.. so is it the right of creation for you to be at the receiving end of the very cold blooded subjective reaction to the action you continue to perpetrate in your so called educated and uncivilized subjective condition..
16 Dec 2012, 01:51 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-14153:
Well we know we do not have the fire power …..but we didnt have the fire power when we knock SA out of the CWC. Fact is if i was a supporter of the words biggest chokers in world cricket, last thing i would do is count my chickens before they hatch.
16 Dec 2012, 08:13 am
“skopdiekan Says:
December 16th, 2012 at 12:30 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-14149:
stop being bloody stupid man.. or are you a woman?”
Vok jou, Skop
16 Dec 2012, 08:27 am
@Hurricane-14156:
your guys have always boxed above their weight in limited overs.
was a big fan of black caps under fleming, vittori and taylor.
not so sure about your new captain though – aggressive little shortshit.
16 Dec 2012, 08:34 am
@Dawn-14157:
Was a strange comment, even from Skop, as we all know YOU killed the cow.
16 Dec 2012, 08:50 am
bakkies comes across like a female on a menstrual cycle so I still can’t work out of he’s a she or she’s a he… its no slant on womanhood only confusion in my brain as to which gender is foremost in bakkies biological metabolism
16 Dec 2012, 09:05 am
@skopdiekan-14160:
Even you have to admit that not ALL meat eaters are bad people?
Or are you not willing to concede that?
There are countless dietitians who will prove that meat forms part of a balanced diet, the same way you will provide countless dietitians that will prove that meat is not necessary.
No one can state for certain who is right or who is wrong.
It boils down to a matter of personal opinion and choice.
16 Dec 2012, 09:08 am
@skopdiekan-14155:
all i am hearing is another intelligent animal giving me his subjective interpretation of how intelligent animals should/could behave towards lesser intelligent animals.
neither of the two views is any more of less right or wrong than the other, Skop.
@Hurricane-14156:
of course the proteas are to cricket what the ab’s are to rugby, Hurri.
no one’s denying that. but you have to admit they are currently in very good form and when comparing the two teams/squads purely on ability and skill its pretty clear they should and probably will hammer nz.
and then there’s the shenanigans going on in cnz.
16 Dec 2012, 09:14 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-14162:
Ons gaan die Kiwi’s hard bliksem
16 Dec 2012, 09:18 am
@charo-14158:
he’s been there before and has got nothing to show for it. actually, the last time he was involved in captaincy he helped orchestrate a player revolt among other things.
i definitely think he’s not good enough as a man or a player to be good for the nz team long term. also, he’s player stats are pathetic. he seems to be a 50 over, one day man at best.
this from the herald:
Only one of any potential top six batsman has an average over 35 this year. BJ Watling has a figure of 57.50, courtesy of his 102 not out to help beat Zimbabwe in January. He followed with 2 and 11 in his other test against the West Indies. New captain Brendon McCullum is next best with 34.50.
There were only three centuries from that group – two to Kane Williamson and Watling’s effort. Compare that to Taylor, who averages 54.60 in 2012, with three centuries on his own.
16 Dec 2012, 09:24 am
Had a good, old fashion suckling pig once… apple in mouth… It looked rather cute… tasted really sweet.
If there ever was an advert for cannibalism, suckling pig definitely the way forward…
Hmmm…
A nice warthog on the spit is pretty damn good too, but nothing beats lamb turning on a brazen fire…
Meat on fire… Just like our cromagnon ancestors.
16 Dec 2012, 09:27 am
@nortierd-14161: there are no bad or good people as such, everyone acts from within the state of conditioning and lack of criticality of purpose they have been brought to in their education or upbringing or conscious rational development. Not all vegetarians are good people either, every single individual is at a particular point in their own individual evolution .. the concept of good and evil or the difference between right and wrong so many will try and attest to obviate their conscious decision to act compassionately or to use their nature given discretionary powers to either inflict harm on another creature or to act compassionately, they will try and tell you is a ‘subjective’ human conditioning.
Goodness is what emanates from within a conscious humane and morally objective compassionate heart, that is what you can equate or call ‘goodness’.. Most people like to think this is who they are, that they will never inflict harm for the sake of it.. when back at the ranch their entire life is a constant continuation of inflicting harm on other conscious creatures out of a blind dispassionate attachment to a condition they call subjective .. or else they will go as far as convincing themselves that nature or creation gave them the capacity to kill and inflict harm without any direct consequence.
If anyone arrives at a point in their life or their evolutionary path where they recognize that killing and causing untold harm to others for no other reason but to satisfy a barbaric and subjective conditioned inhumane desire to appease a ravenous palate and they do not face themselves in all honesty and stop the unnecessary slaughter, then they are failing in their human responsibility to act with the discretion and rational conviction that nature afforded them a higher conscious human life with. It is not so much about good and evil more about being conscious or unconscious in your ‘subjective’ conditioned actions.
16 Dec 2012, 09:32 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-14162: keep lying and bullshitting yourself.. your capacity for making excuses for your untold inhumane conditioned subjective weakness knows no bounds.. wait till the boot is on the other foot.. let see how much subjective conditioned irrationality you use then to argue the point at how OK it is for humans to kill maim and inflict pain the way you do.
Self deceiving pain inflicting weak barbaric backward thinking imbeciles.. the lot of you..
out
16 Dec 2012, 09:33 am
@skopdiekan-14166: Shut up old fool. Just shut up. And if you won’t, then limit your sentences to two lines. Your rambling prose is unreadable. But ideally, shut up.
16 Dec 2012, 09:33 am
@skopdiekan-14160:
its called remorse, Skop.
as any ‘intelligent’ animal should i sometimes say things i realise may hurt of put other readers/bloggers off and i feel a little remorseful for doing so.
the subsequent ‘menstrual cycle’ seeming change in mood/behaviour is me grappling with being a better man. i dont always want to insult the kiwis even though they continue to be dishonest and have no intention of stopping their cheating and stealing of games and titles which rightfully belong to us.
(they really should be ashamed of themselves as men, when i stop to consider it) anyway, it is not me showing womanly weakness (no offence Dawn).
@nortierd-14163:
more Nortier,
dis my gevoel ook.
die kiwis staan regtig nie n kans teen ons nie, in die toetse of die T20′s.
16 Dec 2012, 09:40 am
Mammoth, Deer, rabbits, Fish, hazelnuts, berries… Just some of the foods our ancestors ate…
One of our closest relatives, the chi.mpanzee, is known to fancy smaller *******, other ch.impanzees, birds, lizards and frogs too… Along with berries, nuts, ants, insects…
Naah, we are not herbivores… we do not have rumens…
16 Dec 2012, 09:43 am
@charo-14158:
more from the herald:
Last week he was named the 28th captain of the New Zealand cricket side. It didn’t come about in the way he might have hoped, as coach Mike Hesson ousted Ross Taylor, and McCullum considered all options when asked to take over in all three formats. He decided to accept “for the good of the team”.
Those who know him well say he will do a good job and will be “aggressive” and “instinctive”. Others are less convinced, believing his personality is not suited to being New Zealand captain.
“He’s up and down like a yo-yo,” said one well-placed source, who spoke on condition of anonymity. “He’s all over the place. It’s about sound decision making and we have seen at the crease you don’t get that too often with Brendon. Personally, I don’t think he’s captaincy material.”
There are few more divisive figures in New Zealand cricket. He’s often perceived as brash, perhaps even cocky.
McCullum has Roman numerals stencilled on his right shoulder and bicep that refer, among other things, to his playing number (42) and the birthdates of his children. It’s a public display of the importance of family and one of the strong themes that emerge when talking to people who know him well.
——————–
Last week he was named the 28th captain of the New Zealand cricket side. It didn’t come about in the way he might have hoped, as coach Mike Hesson ousted Ross Taylor, and McCullum considered all options when asked to take over in all three formats. He decided to accept “for the good of the team”.
Those who know him well say he will do a good job and will be “aggressive” and “instinctive”. Others are less convinced, believing his personality is not suited to being New Zealand captain.
“He’s up and down like a yo-yo,” said one well-placed source, who spoke on condition of anonymity. “He’s all over the place. It’s about sound decision making and we have seen at the crease you don’t get that too often with Brendon. Personally, I don’t think he’s captaincy material.”
There are few more divisive figures in New Zealand cricket. He’s often perceived as brash, perhaps even cocky.
McCullum has Roman numerals stencilled on his right shoulder and bicep that refer, among other things, to his playing number (42) and the birthdates of his children. It’s a public display of the importance of family and one of the strong themes that emerge when talking to people who know him well.
——————–
16 Dec 2012, 09:44 am
@skopdiekan-14166:
All creatures have one thing in common, to survive.
It’s human and animal nature to survive, whether by quenching one’s thirst or by stilling hunger pangs.
The majority of people do not necessarily subscribe to your doctrines regarding eating flesh.
If a person is starving and you hand him or het a steak & kidney pie, he will eat it,as the consequence of not doing so is death.
If you are hungry, you eat.
You tar everyone who eats meat with the same brush, even though 99% of them have never killed an animal themselves.
By the same token anyone here can accuse you of being a rapist or a murderer just because you are a male, even though you are not any of those, but we can find you guilty by association just because you are also a human being.
You do make valid points, but the crux gets lost in translation when you willy nilly accuse anyone who doesn’t share your beliefs or dietary viewpoints as murderers and barbarians and make them out to be cannibals.
I’m sure the majority of meat eaters have nothing against vegetarians and in all probability respect their will power and won’t try to force them into having a chop or boerie roll, therefor you might just accept that some humans enjoy meat and don’t necessarily become savage murderers overnight by going into the field hacking up cows to satisfy their bloodlust.
Personal tastes differ, that is what makes us unique as a species, not a perfect species, but unique.
16 Dec 2012, 09:46 am
Cricket: Sorry saga stretches back three years
Captaincy imbroglio had genesis in player revolt against coach Andy Moles in 2009 but worsened with subsequent handling
Were William Shakespeare to sit down and pen The Great Captaincy Coup with a stage play in mind, he’d still have trouble finding the right starting point.
For many the narrative begins only when Mike Hesson, a long-time admirer of Brendon McCullum, is appointed coach in July.
In truth, the sorry saga stretches back to October 2009, when Andy Moles resigned after conceding he had, in modern sporting vernacular, lost the dressing room.
Suddenly, the spectre of player power loomed large.
McCullum, the vice-captain and obvious heir apparent to Daniel Vettori, was fingered as the biggest personality in the dressing room, a man with too much influence over the younger players in particular.
He was relieved of his vice-captaincy duties. Soon after, the quieter, less bolshie Ross Taylor was ushered into his position.
McCullum was furious, not with Taylor’s ascension, but with his demotion and the tittle-tattle that accompanied it.
He resented the implication that he was somehow a negative influence on the team and lost respect for those he felt were propagating that line.
He initially wanted nothing to do with leadership aspects of the team but quickly came around to thinking that it wouldn’t do anybody any good.
Things appeared to sail along fairly smoothly until Vettori stood aside, prematurely perhaps, after the World Cup in March last year.
Rather than passing the baton directly to his vice-captain Taylor, New Zealand Cricket decided to have him and McCullum present for the job – a farcical situation because sources have told the Herald there was only ever one person coach John Wright was going to have as his skipper, and it wasn’t McCullum.
So all the process did was turn what should have been a low-key coronation into a highly politicised, extremely partisan race.
Camps were established, rumour and innuendo were allowed to flourish. Taylor had high-profile and very vocal backing from Martin Crowe. His manager, Leanne McGoldrick, was known to have the ear of key people on the board.
McCullum, once managed by McGoldrick, was now represented and advocated by Stephen Fleming, arguably NZ’s finest captain.
People inside cricket circles were being asked to take sides, fans were being asked to take sides.
Two of the most important players in the team were effectively being pitted against each other, having their pros and cons very publicly debated.
It might have made for an entertaining media sideshow, but in all other respects it was an appalling piece of management.
When chief executive David White sat down yesterday and said straight-faced that there were no issues with Taylor’s captaincy, he must have been living in a vacuum for the past year.
Even before Hesson’s appointment the whispers were growing louder that Taylor was struggling with certain aspects of the job, most notably communication.
He never looked entirely at ease in front of a microphone, but that’s no deal breaker. It was certainly nothing that was particularly damning, and nothing that couldn’t have been improved with time and experience, but it was there all the same.
The bowlers, it was said, were struggling to get a sense of what Taylor expected from them and were tired of the withering looks when they strayed off plan.
Again, there was nothing to suggest there was anything that would prove terminal to his leadership; it was painted more as an awkward bedding-in process.
That all changed when Hesson was appointed.
The writing might not have been on the wall, but it was certainly in the paper. This is how the Weekend Herald reported the appointment of Hesson, back on July 21.
“Taylor can no longer be guaranteed a long reign as captain.
“Taylor was very much a Wright appointment, chosen not only for his cricketing brain and undoubted talent, but also because he was more pliable than the other candidate, Brendon McCullum. Where Wright wanted players to do what they were told, Hesson said yesterday he wanted them to take more responsibility on their own shoulders.
“Quite apart from the fact they have an affinity for each other through their work at Otago, Hesson might argue McCullum is more suited to delivering that style of leadership.”
It was obvious very early that Hesson and Taylor was not going to work. After the tour to India, there were noises that the coach wanted a change. Taylor scored a century in the final test at Bangalore that possibly bought him some time.
He did so again in Sri Lanka, after he had been asked to resign.
Many thought his superb batting and a highly meritorious victory would be enough to buy more time.
Unfortunately the noise was too loud by now and it was going public.
There was to be no turning back.
New Zealand Cricket was moving very slowly towards a giant train wreck and simply didn’t have the wherewithal to avoid it.
White headed for Dubai and International Cricket Council business on Saturday. He characterised his five days away as dealing with “important international business” and conceded there had been “a void” of information in that time.
As is always the case, that void was filled with talkback chatter and social media tittle tattle, all of it incredibly damaging to Taylor, McCullum and cricket in general.
White has insisted player power had nothing to do with yesterday’s decision. “I don’t believe so. Ross is well respected,” he said. Asked what had changed since Taylor was endorsed 16 months ago by a panel which included director of cricket John Buchanan, White said: “We’ve got a new coach.”
Although publicly NZC is saying Hesson wanted Taylor to remain test captain, this reeks of compromise, rather than a firmly held conviction that Taylor was the best man for the test job.
It is known Taylor had started to feel increasingly isolated.
Opening batsman Martin Guptill is believed to have been a staunch ally; younger players in the squad have been identified as having been less than 100 per cent supportive of Taylor’s leadership style.
Whatever the more intricate details, there’s no question this imbroglio is at least on a par with the player power which did for Moles, if not quite up with the “biggie”, the players strike of 2002.
The captaincy is worth about $40,000 but that’s peanuts compared with the blow dealt to Taylor’s pride this week.
Another outcome of yesterday is that NZC has once again lost the services of its former champion batsman Martin Crowe, who has resigned from the job of talent scout just weeks after accepting it. Crowe is a longtime supporter of Taylor.
Fleming’s teammates have suggested it took him at least a couple of years to grow into the captaincy.
This is not to say Taylor would have become another Fleming. It does give pause for thought, though, whether he even had the chance.
16 Dec 2012, 09:52 am
I don’t eat vegetarian. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63NNuG-6-hQ
16 Dec 2012, 10:08 am
@katman-14174:
“There is a hammer under the sink…and not a word of this to Wendy”
16 Dec 2012, 10:08 am
@katman-14174:
Lol, barbarian
16 Dec 2012, 10:20 am
Just watched a thing on the RWC 2011
It called “The weight of a Nation.”
Intense.
Its what the players and coaches had to go through leading upto the RWC and during.
We all knew they were under huge pressure to win it but until you hear GH, McCaw, Conrad Smth and Wayne Smith talk about it…….its amazing.
16 Dec 2012, 10:20 am
@katman-14174:
“What was that I saw wondering around?”
“The cat”.
“That’ll do, with some rice.”
16 Dec 2012, 10:23 am
@Robzim-14175: Haha – Hi Rob, skop will want to kill you for that !!! Oh wait no that will be too barbaric
I love meat but a cat ?? No no
16 Dec 2012, 10:27 am
@I am a stormer-14178: Earlier during the week I was at Tygervalley shopping centre and was doing parallel parking – it was on the side of the parking area with a grass embankment on the one side. There was nothing moving when I started the “parking drill” but when I got out of the car, I realised that I had just “killed” one big fat rat – most probably on his way to the delivery area ( I parked not too far away from that). I forgot to mention that to skop last night. I suppose no he’ll want to have me prosecuted for killing a rat !! (“But your honour I did not see the rat” – “that’s no excuse for such barbaric behaviour”)
16 Dec 2012, 10:32 am
@CharlesM-14180:
You don’t have to worry about that.
Not all animals are equal, even in Skop’s eyes.
He sometimes refers to some people here as rats and skunks, so I can only assume that those species don’t carry to much weight.
16 Dec 2012, 10:44 am
@CharlesM-14180:
The thing is what would you serve it with – a balsy red or a chilled white?
16 Dec 2012, 11:27 am
@nortierd-14172:
“I’m sure the majority of meat eaters have nothing against vegetarians and in all probability respect their will power and won’t try to force them into having a chop or boerie roll, therefor you might just accept that some humans enjoy meat and don’t necessarily become savage murderers overnight by going into the field hacking up cows to satisfy their bloodlust.”
Sorry I cannot agree with this.
a) ive got a lot against vegetarians, they are response for adolph, polpot, stalin and terrible farts
b) I dont respect their power for shite, most them doing it out of vanity or some other fkdup reasoning that makes them feel special.
c) i feel the world would be a better placed if they were forced to eat a boerie roll
d) if u aint had lamb in a long time, i dare you to not be tempted to jump the fence and start the chainsaw up.
16 Dec 2012, 11:33 am
@I am a stormer-14182: Any kind of “dooswyn” lol !!
16 Dec 2012, 11:37 am
@cab-14183:
Ha ha
True, but at least it means more boerie rolls and chops for us.
Sharing isn’t always good, but they can have my carrots if I can have their T-bone
16 Dec 2012, 11:51 am
I saw the Secret White Club of Cape Town the other day.
It was at the Mango Groove concert at Kirstenbosch, and they were all there: the 60-somethings in tasteful cotton with little chairs and expensive wines; the earnest middle-class parents and their well-behaved children; the lefties with their scarves and bangles and piercings and dreadlocks.
The air was filled with the sweet perfume of smugness and self-satisfaction, as it always is at these events.
And, dear reader, before you assume I am one in blackness with Khaya Dlanga, who had caused such a stir on IOL in recent days, think again: I am in fact a middle-aged, middle-class white woman with one of those well-behaved children.
However, I don’t belong to the Secret White Club for I have a terrible disadvantage: I have a flat Eastern Cape accent (with undertones of the old Transvaal – I was born in Joburg). And for that reason alone, I will never be admitted to the club.
For you see, to accuse Cape Town of racism is to over-simplify. It is more complicated than that.
At bedrock, you have the naked white-on-black racism that informs white life in this country. It exists in all of us, and the only way forward is to acknowledge it and struggle with it.
In the Eastern Cape I have heard this racism expressed openly and crudely (by people who assume I am in the same club as them).
In Cape Town it is never discussed – rather than saying we won’t send our children to a particular school because it has too many black kids (which would be openly expressed elsewhere in the country), we say we are worried about “bussing in”. How delicate is that?
So far, so familiar.
The extra dimension to Cape Town life, the extra special flavour, is snobbery.
The fine judgments exercised in this snobbery are based on where you live (one dowager looked down her nose at my newly arrived mother and asked: “So, which side of the line do you live on?” I am not making this up).
Also, you need to get the cultural pretensions (when I first moved here, I was told, quite seriously, I could never call myself a Capetonian unless I knew how to drink red wine. I am not making this up).
Then there are the subtle markers of privilege and background that lie in accent, clothing, school background (when asked where I was at school I say Clarendon Girls. When polite mystification ensues, I throw the Capetonians a bone and say it’s the East London equivalent of Rustenburg Girls. Relaxation all round. I am not making this up).
I’ve accepted, as an Eastern Cape refugee who came here to find work, that I will never fit in Cape Town Society. I was not born under an oak tree in Constantia and don’t present any of the right social markers. At that Mango Groove concert, I was wearing a tatty leather jacket and drinking white wine out of a box. What could the Club have made of me?
In any event, I am very happy in the ghetto where those misfits, vagabonds and idealists known as journalists live. They accept me as I am.
But I have lived in this city for longer than I have lived anywhere else, and when people ask me where I am from, I say I am from the Eastern Cape. That I am proud of. Cape Town? Not so much.
16 Dec 2012, 11:53 am
If we really want to engage with deep transformation, we need to be honest about the fact that different people from different races and cultures often experience the world differently. We need to accept than when such a large group of African professionals say that Cape Town is hostile to black people, there is something wrong – even if we cannot easily see this because it does not accord with our own experience. Denying that anything is the matter is deeply insulting and dehumanising. It dismisses the real lived experience of a group of people just because they do not experience the world in the same way as their white counterparts.
Moreover, Zille’s response is particularly insulting as it comes close to dismissing all the black people who complain of racism in Cape Town as dishonest and corrupt. That is called “blaming the victim”.
Surely a more honest response would have been to take the complaints seriously, to admit that there is indeed a problem and to propose ways of addressing the very real concerns of the many black people who have made Cape Town their home. Like an alcoholic who can only begin to manage his illness after admitting to having a drinking problem, Cape Town can only begin to address the problem of structural racism when its leaders admit that there is a problem in the first place.
16 Dec 2012, 11:55 am
She said she found Cape Town racist.
She said white Capetonians looked at one another as if they were members of a secret club. The White People’s Club.
Strangers made racially biased remarks to her, assuming that she will agree with her simply because she is white. It is something she said she had never experienced anywhere before.
One of the examples she gave me was an experience she had last week while she was shopping at a supermarket.
There was a trainee at the till. The trainee was obviously slow. The trainee explained that he was still new and figuring things out.
But the man in front in the queue turned and looked at my friend and then said: “These people are so slow and stupid and lazy. This can’t be that hard.”
My friend said she got that a lot in Cape Town.
That they are all part of the club where white people can just say things about black people and expect everyone to agree.
If this is the case, then what is it about Capetonians that they think they can get away with that kind of behaviour?
Obviously this is not everyone. All my friend was saying was that if she encountered this kind of behaviour so regularly, it could only mean that a lot of the time people say these things without being aware that they are being racist.
Am I saying Capetonians are racist?
Not at all, but I am saying that Cape Town needs to engage in proper soul-searching before denouncing what my German friend noticed. Outsiders tend to see things in a different light because they are not emotionally invested in the country. I appreciated her perspective on the Mother City because it created a mind shift.
In Joburg, she said, she never felt that she was looked at as if she belonged to this exclusive white club. She finds Joburg more accepting and more patient in letting others grow.
And, oh, one more thing: she said Cape Town was like a fishing village.
16 Dec 2012, 11:55 am
live and let live (except if its lamb or biltong).
16 Dec 2012, 11:57 am
Class and race, particularly in Cape Town due to the city’s particular racial socio-economics, are a case of six-of-one, half a dozen of the other in the minds of many. Unlike Johannesburg, for example, where black wealth is not a rarity, in classist Cape Town, white is money and black is poverty. In classist Cape Town, white moves about unquestioned and being black means retailers can say without shame that you cannot afford their merchandise and kick you out of their store.
16 Dec 2012, 11:57 am
@Heavens Game-14186:
sounds like some premenstrual fkup – get over it already, why the fk she going to those poefda parties in the first place if her nose is going to get put out of joint?
16 Dec 2012, 11:59 am
Firstly, this entire country still features sprinklings of racism that often peak in rural communities or the northern provinces – where white superiority pans out unquestioned. Nonetheless such instances of overt racism (such as the Wavecrest / Wild Coast resorts in the Eastern Cape which aren’t shy to say “No blacks allowed!”) are much easier to digest as well as address. Such that we cannot say such places are the most racist. The most racist places would have to be those that don’t know they are racist. Like Cape Town. Cape Town takes the cake where racism is concerned because its racists amble about unconsciously offending here and there without so much as batting an eyelid. Such is unconsciousness.
Who are these unconscious racists?
They are faceless and could be white, could be coloured and black even. They are mostly experienced, not seen, as they are deeply institutionalised in the fabric of Cape Town. Their trademark feature is how blacks experience them. There are no “No blacks allowed!” signs in Cape Town and that is what makes its racism far worse than that of the rural areas I mentioned earlier.
To understand this racism we have to understand that blacks are a minority in Cape Town, majority of which lives in townships and primarily moved to Cape Town for menial labour way back then. To this day, the great majority of blacks migrating to Cape Town still do so for menial labour. Their role in the functioning of the Cape has always been menial, such that inferiority complexes were easily adopted. So inferior are Cape blacks that even Cape coloureds see themselves as superior to them. Afterall Cape coloureds share Afrikaans with many a white person and former oppressors of this country. With language alone we are able to already see the barrier. There begins the exclusionary nature of Cape Town. People who have something in common, like language, often never see how their commonality locks others out: They tend to employ, advantage, prefer or relate better with those who have something in common with them, almost by default. This explains the seemingly preferential intake of coloured employees over blacks of equal qualification. It seems qualified or black professionals are a risk employee in the Cape – they’re seen to be race-obsessed, nuisance-ical and uncomfortable to have around if they’re assertive and can raise race matters. It’s better to employ the coloured employee with whom it is easier to bond (via shared social imaginings borne out of this cultural common ground foregrounded by the language of Afrikaans and English).
Where does this leave the Cape black?
Well, it beats the Cape black into submission that indeed “I am of a lower being!” Having accepted this means that Cape whites become accustomed to obedient/subservient blacks who rarely raise concerns nor assert their being as equals. I draw this conclusion based on an elderly Cape white friend who travelled to Swaziland and came back a bit shocked saying, “the black people there are different! The way they speak to us whites, they don’t look down – they look you in the eye. They don’t pull child-like smiles or laughs when talking to you, they just talk to you as a person.” To her mind or from what I gathered from our conversation she was acknowledging that indeed something’s wrong with the Cape black she’s grown accustomed to. I am surprised many a white person has yet to admit that Cape blacks allow themselves into positions of inferiority that enable whites to walk all over them without so much as feeling guilty about it.
The Cape black inferiority complex has become the norm in Cape Town. Such that it is unquestionable. Any black not born nor raised in Cape Town will immediately feel this inferior treatment by whites, coloureds and Cape blacks even. The ones who exert the most racism on behalf of whites are in actual fact coloureds and Cape blacks. Never have I seen so much self-loathing in my life. I’ve been here for 12 years and it still baffles me how coloureds have come to treat blacks with such contempt. Perhaps it’s the insidious nature of whiteness that prevails over Cape blacks and coloureds. It is unacceptable. When a people has been beaten into submission by their master they tend to turn and take out their frustration on one another, rarely on the master. Hence master doesn’t see this frustration. It explains why white people, like Helen Zille, will immediately jump to say there’s no racism – show us the racism, where and when it took place. Because in all honesty her experience of blacks is premised by the precedence set by Cape blacks – that her mannerism as a white person is acceptable. All is well. “Mavis-the-maid understands me and I understand Mavis” white internalisation.
16 Dec 2012, 12:03 pm
After I read the New York Times story, I started thinking about my trip to Robben Island, Langa Township and my observations and conversations while here. When you arrive in this beautiful city hugged by the mountains and Table Bay, you are quickly reminded that this country has a tense history with apartheid. On the drive from the airport into downtown Cape Town, you pass by Langa on the right and a premiere South African Univeristy on the left, University of Cape Town (UCT). When you are out and about downtown or at the beach, there is a healthy mix of white and black South Africans, but after my visit to Langa I started to question the racial tensions in this country: How is it these black families – many with young black children – live here day in and day out while wealthier black South Africans enjoy life free of the township? I was struck by the divide between black South Africans themselves.
While out one night having a drink, I started talking with a black South African who offered me a drink. I gladly accepted and then he blurted out: “Why do all these white people think I am an escort? Do you? I am an educated black man who has a good paying job, but I still get looks from white people at this club like I should not be there.” It was the first time I had heard that type of comment — I had been out a few times and seen a nice mix of white and black South Africans. This comment made me think more about the comments made in the New York Times piece. I decided to ask a few others; below is a sampling of the responses I got from local South Africans asking them about the racism issue (note: these are paraphrased responses to the best of my memory):
16 Dec 2012, 12:04 pm
White South African: He thought the article was plain American rubbish. He told me that Cape Town gets a bad wrap because its the only province not governed by the African National Congress; instead, its the Democratic Alliance‘s Helen Zille, the former mayor of Cape Town (world mayor of the year in 2008), who is the head of the Western Cape government as its premiere. He also pushed back on the assertion by telling me that Cape Town now has a black mayor, Patricia de Lille.
Interracial *** South African couple: The white South African immediately got defensive and pushed back saying that it was no more racist than anywhere else in the country. He said there were plenty of opportunities and used his black boyfriend as an example. However, his black boyfriend looked right at me and said, “I agree, its racist here. I get looks at places I go to … asking why I am with a white man.” This prompted me to ask, “Do you get more looks because you are *** or because you are with in a white relationship?” He responded quickly that it was because of the color of his skin. I asked if he could give me any examples, but he was busy trying not to upset his partner at this point. But, I found it quite illuminating that when I asked the racist question, the white half of the couple got defensive and the black gentleman immediatley agreed.
16 Dec 2012, 12:06 pm
@Heavens Game-14190: A recently released report (cant be bothered to look up the specifics) actually had Cape Town as the most equal city (income ways).
I do agree that there is more (shall we say “resistance”) to the idea of black people being an integrated component of the province than there is up North. Its not only white people though. A great majority of the coloured population show alarming hostility towards black people.
16 Dec 2012, 12:06 pm
i hate to break this to you but the durbanites beat the cape townians hands down in the racism stakes, poefdaness, there you get beaten by the capies, but they still produce prodigous rugby talent.
16 Dec 2012, 12:08 pm
It all started when singer/ model Lindiwe Suttle on Tuesday tweeted about the racism she has experienced in Cape Town. Other tweeters joined in the topic, which was tagged #CapeTownIsRacist. The tag became a trending topic on SA Twitter, with some agreeing and others rebuffing the accusation.
On Wednesday, it was still a trending topic.
Suttle tweeted: “No matter how famous/ rich you are, you’re still a 2nd class citizen if you’re Black in Cape Town, @helenzille when’s the change you spoke about happening”.
Zille, premier of the Western Cape, former Cape Town mayor and an ardent Twitter user, responded: “What complete nonsense.”
She went on to say it was “a baseless assertion”.
One user, @marangdream, responded: “Someone says they feel racism, “What Nonsense!” is NOT an appropriate response”, to which Zille replied: “They did NOT say they ‘feel’ racism. They said Cape Town IS racist. BIG difference. I respect feelings but not blanket accusations.”
At some point Dana tweeted to Zille: “Are you disputing/ denying that Cape Town is racist? Is this because some of your friends are black?”
When one Twitter user (outside of the #CapeTownIsRacist topic) tweeted that they had bumped into Dana at the V&A Waterfront, Zille tweeted: “Sorry? I thought she left Cape Town claiming it is “racist”.”
Dana responded: “Yes ma’am I did. Are you disputing that it’s racist?”, before later tweeting: “It is embarrassing that as a leader you would deny people their experiences. Try live in a black skin for once. You have the power to change things. Use it!”
Zille then tweeted what has seen her face harsh criticism and abuse on the social network: “You’re a highly respected black professional. Don’t try to be a professional black. It demeans you.”
One user asked Zille to “define” what a ‘professional black’ was, to which she responded: “People who base their life and purpose around their colour.” When pressed for a definition of a ‘professional white’ by another user, she said: “It is someone who is self-obsessed and claims victimhood because they are white.”
Twitter users have been up in arms against Zille since, with the politician becoming a trending topic (‘#professionalblack’ is also trending).
Twitterer @WildWildWonga said: “Helen Zille that ‘professional black’ classification is a pretty racist if you ask me. You just made Simphiwe Dana’s point.”
Another user, @LTqha, tweeted: “Only Helen Zille can get away with demeaning blacks and still get the black votes. Good 4u Baas!”
Twitterer kuhle83 asked Zille: “So if it was 17 years after the Holocaust, would you be calling people ‘professional Jews’?”
Dana herself weighed in, tweeting: “So Helen Zille is gonna teach me how to be an acceptable black. I’m ever so so grateful.”
Regarding Zille becoming a trending topic and the subject of much criticism, Dana said: “Helen Zille has managed to piss off black twitter. She can’t blame me for this one.”
16 Dec 2012, 12:09 pm
@Heavens Game-14188: You’ve mentioned this before a couple of weeks ago if I can recall. Once again it’s a generalisation.
I’m not denying that there is racism around but not all “whiteys” are like that.
I’ve seen a lot of racism in the Eastern Cape: my in-laws hail from the E.Cape and I have heard a lot of abuse towards black people.
Something different:
I’ve spent most of my life in the Nothern suburbs – I’ve found that quite a few English speaking people don’t like Afrikaans speaking people like me – but I’m not saying all English speaking don’t like “us”. One of my best friends is in fact English speaking.
It’s all about personal behaviour IMO
16 Dec 2012, 12:10 pm
@Taahirah-14195: Who produced the report: Self proclaimed Lily liberal whiteys?
What, “professional blacks” not to be believed?
16 Dec 2012, 12:11 pm
Here’s what should have happened in the 17 years since then: Cape Town, the country’s oldest city with its reputation for being cosmopolitan, ought to have led the way in racial unity. It didn’t happen. Far away from verkrampte Pretoria and even more conservative Bloemfontein, Cape Town failed us. Her people withdrew into their racial enclaves and passed each other warily on the street.
I spent two and a half years in Cape Town before I fled for Johannesburg, like so many other black professionals (ahem). It wasn’t just the stories you’d hear about people of colour being turned away from nightclubs, or how the only other black people in your work place were generally the cleaners. It wasn’t even the near complete absence of racial integration.
What drove me slowly mad was how racism was an elephant in the room that you could not talk about. How white Capetonians would cringe and turn away when the topic came up, or look at you in blank confusion and ask why you were so obsessed with race. It was how, yes, there is racism everywhere in South Africa but in Cape Town it is not possible to even discuss it. And how Cape Town, with its pristine beaches, its lofty Parliament buildings and history of activism, was somehow supposed to be better than that.
And in our haste to one-up each other in the Being Right game, South Africans have singularly failed to stop and listen to each other. It’s the black professionals like myself who fled the city, generally for Johannesburg, and didn’t consider what the glib statement “Cape Town is racist” really meant, and how a generalisation like that was itself prejudiced.
It was those who took umbrage at the accusation of racism and didn’t for a moment think how petty their cold logic was in the face of the hurt they were encountering. (Is “other cities are also racist” really a defence you’re proud of? Or the hair-splitting of “what exactly do you mean by ‘Cape Town?’”) It’s even those who attacked popular radio personality Anele Mdoda who dared to point out on Twitter that this was a bigger issue than the DA, and that there were perhaps more important things to fight for.
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