Walsh should have been sacked
6 Mar 2013
MARK KEOHANE writes Steve Walsh should have been given the chop, even if just for a few games, for charging into Conrad Smith.
If a player had lost his cool, as Walsh did, and made contact with a referee he would have been fronting a disciplinary and all sorts of condemnation would accompany the appearance.
Walsh is again becoming a law unto himself and his ego is again getting the better of him.
The Australian-based Kiwi, who in Justin Marshall’s autobiography, admitted a rugby field wasn’t big enough to accommodate the egos of Marshall and himself and further made the admission that he couldn’t stand the sight of Marshall’s face and would penalise the Crusaders just because Marshall irritated him, has a controversial history with the whistle.
He was sacked previously because of his battle with booze and he returned to the game humbled and rejuvenated.
His performance in the Canes game was more of the old Walsh. His communication skills were lacking, he was larger than the players, he was No 1 and he was very anti the Canes in his approach.
The contact with Smith, when the Canes skipper queried a penalty, warranted sanction. It looked ugly and it looked malicious. Walsh was angry and lost the plot.
Smith has shown his class is being diplomatic and brushing off the incident, but Walsh erred in making the wrong call on a few occasions in a frantic final five minutes and it had a bearing on the outcome of the match.
Referee boss Lyndon Bray concedes Walsh got it wrong and Smith was right to query Walsh, and he further concedes Walsh’s performance wasn’t up to standard in the final few minutes. But, despite this, he told the Fairfax Media reporters the overall review assessment for Walsh was 93 percent and that the official reviewers were happy with the job done.
It is nothing short of disgraceful.
The Hurricanes lodged an official complaint and Bray said he and Canes coach Mark Hammett had agreed to disagree.
Bray said Walsh had made ‘two or three’ incorrect calls against the Hurricanes but defended Walsh’s overall performance.
‘Mark feels Steve didn’t have a very good day. My argument to that was I don’t think it was too bad, but I absolutely support that at a critical part of the game we got a couple wrong,’ said Bray.
Given this Walsh should have been stood down, even if just for a match or two.
‘I can understand that frustration, but across the game I don’t think there’s much argument other than Steve had a pretty good day generally. What Mark talked about really came down to a small number of decisions in the second half which really had an impact on the Hurricanes. Fair cop.
‘I think Steve would agree with Mark he had two or three calls in the last quarter that weren’t as accurate as he’d like, including the penalty on the goal line which resulted in the back chat. So that all got a bit ugly because we agree the decision was wrong.’
Bray further defended Walsh’s clash with Smith as accidental and not malicious. You decide.
‘He was [caught in the moment]. He was in decision-making mode. It’s just one of those things,’ said Bray. “One of Steve’s strengths is that he’s a strong character on the field and I think that’s pretty important for a referee. On Friday night both the players and the referee got a little frustrated.
‘He had a couple of errors build up and they went against the Hurricanes at key moments and that’s where you can understand Mark’s frustrations.’
Walsh’s reward for getting it wrong in the crucial time of the game was to fly to London to referee a Six Nations international this weekend and he will resume business in Super Rugby on his return.
Referee accountability is an area that continues to be glossed over in all competitions. The standard of refereeing in the early part of the competition has been inconsistent, the application of the five second use it law at ruck time has been so subjectively applied, depending on the referee, that it is a farce and certain referees allow teams to slow the ball down with repeated calls of ‘release release’ by which time the damage has been done to the attacking side.
Referee interpretation still influences too much of the play, as does the time of the match when the offending team transgressors. Teams commit professional fouls on their goalline in the first 20 minutes and never face a yellow card, but the same transgression is always punished with a yellow or red card if occurring in the last five or 10 minutes of a match.
Referees, like players, are paid professionals. They need to be held accountable when getting it wrong and there needs to be more sanction and scrutiny on those who allow the play to be slowed down by repeated cautions but rarely with consequence. Referees will tell you they caution to get flow but if they penalised immediately and set a standard that slowing down the ball won’t be tolerated they’d then get the flow in a game.
Generally there is too much back slapping within the referee fraternity and while it is a thankless task to be a referee let’s not forget these guys chose it as a profession, and if they want to be treated like professionals they must equally be judged as professionals.
Walsh betrayed the professionalism of an international referee in the way he lost it with Smith and lost it with the Canes. There had to be a consequence to that poor form. Instead there is only reward. It is why nothing will change.
294 Comments
6 Mar 2013, 09:36 am
It was clearly an accident. He turned around ready to start running and ran into Smith. Stuck his elbow out to protect himself.
You can’t tell me that was on purpose, and he apologized straight away.
6 Mar 2013, 09:41 am
I missed the incident but in general….all antipodean refs are kak.
we all know that, hell, even the players know it.
Bryce Lawrence…kiwi ref of the year 2012. farken funny. Even Richie M in his autobiography in the exact same year says how kak Bryce is/was.
so long as there is a kiwi ref boss…it is the blind leading the blind.
6 Mar 2013, 09:42 am
“referee boos”?
Freudian slip eh Mark? Know where to find your spellchecker?
6 Mar 2013, 09:44 am
I agree that he should be sacked, but because of his incompetence and giant ego, and not because of the charge.
We often see players and refs getting in each other’s way and I don’t recall ever seeing a malicious clash.
6 Mar 2013, 09:47 am
Walsh should have been sacked http://t.co/Ch42NH31nr via @sharethis there has 2 b consequence 2 referees who lose the plot
6 Mar 2013, 09:50 am
When push comes to shove it was just making a mountain out of a molehill says Stormer in a teacup.
6 Mar 2013, 09:55 am
bakkiesvis going to love this one ‘D
6 Mar 2013, 09:57 am
@Dilligafrican-3: You ever tried to type a piece with a nine week old staffie puppy sharing the keyboard. All typos now corrected with puppy snoring and still rested on forearm
6 Mar 2013, 09:57 am
@Dilligafrican-3: mark was thinking “doos”
6 Mar 2013, 09:59 am
@keo-8: really? ” Refree boss” hahaha
6 Mar 2013, 09:59 am
@Transformation-9: lol!
@keo-8: hahahaha…what’s its name?
Don’t worry, I’m not a spelling nazi – I like hugging them and going “There, their, they’re”
6 Mar 2013, 10:00 am
The incident:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifQh80FGum8
He apologized immediately.
6 Mar 2013, 10:04 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl-2: click on link then
6 Mar 2013, 10:05 am
@Dilligafrican-11: her name is charli
6 Mar 2013, 10:12 am
hmmm…nothing much in it but a deliberate shove from Walsh who obviously realised very quickly what he’d done. Its not a blind bump into someone, his arms clearly go to shove the player away.
6 Mar 2013, 10:13 am
Look at the push there was nothing accidental about the way he shoved him. I don’t care if he apologised immediately. If a player had done that to a referee and apologized immediately it would have made no difference. He shoves him out of the way. He makes deliberate contact with the player. That is a no no in the game.
6 Mar 2013, 10:15 am
@keo-16: What’s Percy’s take on this?
6 Mar 2013, 10:15 am
@Dilligafrican-11:
????
6 Mar 2013, 10:18 am
what do you guys make of how referees have applied the five second use it change at the ruck and generally what is your take on how referees constantly scream out to a player slowing the ball down ‘leave it … leave it … stay back …’ by which time all the damage has been done. The referee should pin the oke immediately and set a standard. Give five penalties in the first five minutes if needs be and you will quickly see blokes rolling away, releasing the tackled player to play the ball and actually playing to the way the law was intended. Referees think they are coaches and ‘coach’ for flow but all they do is allow for the professional fouls to become an art, especially at slowing down the speed at which ball is recycled at the break down.
6 Mar 2013, 10:19 am
@keo-16:
I agree, the apology is not spontainious.
Almost as if he realized he was caught on camera.
that would be an instant red card if a player did the same.
6 Mar 2013, 10:20 am
@Dilligafrican-17: exactly he shoved a touch judge and got 18 months and ended up serving six months out of the game. Walsh deliberately pushed Smith out of the way. It wasn’t reactionary. There was intent. He lost the plot and a referee shouldn’t be excused that in the so called ‘heat of the moment’
6 Mar 2013, 10:20 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl-20: That’s why you are the Brigadier you are not easily fooled lol
6 Mar 2013, 10:21 am
@keo-19:
i agree again.
I wish refs would just apply the law and hopefully all the “interpretation” would be gone from the game.
6 Mar 2013, 10:22 am
@keo-19: From what I’ve seen the teams have already gotten clever on this one – all they do is hold the ball inside the ruck and when the 9 wants it it suddenly pops out to be “available”
6 Mar 2013, 10:23 am
@Dilligafrican-24:
….the bulls were onto this one last season already.
they just extend the maul and buy more time.
6 Mar 2013, 10:24 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl-25: nonsense. Its just because the bulls love to maul
6 Mar 2013, 10:26 am
@Dilligafrican-26:
and why not, did you miss those poor ******** from Perth getting marched single file,-double time half-way up the field last saturday?
6 Mar 2013, 10:28 am
@keo-19:
Only SA refs seems to apply the 5-sec law consistently. Rucks still a mess and mauls now ever becoming a bigger mess where the team in possession is never policed where players join the maul illegally (in front of the ball carrier).
Extended TMO allowances have only contributed more controversy and confusion in the game, not it’s intended purpose of getting calls right (100%) which to my mind (with current technology) is impossible any case.
6 Mar 2013, 10:29 am
Much ado about nothing. The push was accidental but I agree on him being a k@k ref.
6 Mar 2013, 10:29 am
@keo-14:
Is she typing now?
6 Mar 2013, 10:34 am
@sparticus-29:
no way in hell, he lifted his arm to push off Smith.
the apology was an afterthought of guilt.
I say hang-draw-quarter him.
6 Mar 2013, 10:36 am
@keo-19: What irritates me the most are players (mostly NZ) standing up and “taking up space” while they should roll away.
This has two consequences: The arriving player from the attacking team needs to dodge this player to clean out an arriving player from the opposition or he needs to clean this guy out which gives an arriving player from the opposition time to make a steal.
Not once did I see this “tactic” being used in our derbies until I watched the Cheetahs game where some of the Chiefs players tried to do this on more than one occasion.
6 Mar 2013, 10:37 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl-31:
I say put him in chains and send him to Australia….
6 Mar 2013, 10:40 am
He did lose the plot…the pressure was getting to him and Smith was on his face questioning him a lot near the end.But i still think the push was accidental, he didnt mean to do it i believe. But its like a player that accidentally throws a head high in the game, the player will get penalised, maybe Welsh should get some sort of a fine of some sort. But sacking him is going a bit far.
But Smith would have been happier if his team managed to hold the ball and not drop it when things were starting to look good.
6 Mar 2013, 10:41 am
@keo-19: Like most of the laws the ref is allowed their “interpretation”, this is what will kill this game, giving the ref leeway to keep a flowing game is bullshit, blow the rules as they are written and the players will be forced to comply, the Reds vs Canes game just proves how a ref can decided who the winner of a game will be.
Will ask again, hopefully you will reply Mark, what has happened to your mobi site?
6 Mar 2013, 10:41 am
thank you henke pistorius
http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/christivanderwesthuizen/2013/03/05/the-oscar-pistorius-case-time-is-wrong-and-lulu-is-right/
6 Mar 2013, 10:43 am
don’t toy with me, Keohane…
6 Mar 2013, 10:46 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-37:
You didn’t see the game so don’t worry about this….move along
6 Mar 2013, 10:49 am
thanks Trans.
every 8 hours a woman dies from domestic violence in SA?
and you guys have the cheek to laugh and point out NZs domestic abuse problems?
how hypocritical indeed. nothin unusual for this site though.
6 Mar 2013, 10:51 am
@Transformation-36: A very good C&P… One of your best.
6 Mar 2013, 10:51 am
@keo-19: Re: the 5 second “Use It” law. At the moment, some SA scrummies seem to hang back from ruck time to allow their backlines/pods to form (*cough* Hougaard *cough*). Thereby stealing an extra couple of seconds as there’s no cleaner at the base of the ruck…
Kind of counter intuitive casue it deprives their backs of front foot ball.
6 Mar 2013, 10:53 am
poeps, who laughs at domestic abuse wherever it may be happening?
6 Mar 2013, 10:55 am
@Transformation-36:
Lulu is trying to raise her profile to avoid Zoomer’s axe.
Unfortunately every time she opens her mouth something stupid comes out.
6 Mar 2013, 10:55 am
@Transformation-42:
Trans…i believe you have been here long enough to see that a lot on here bring up NZ abuse like its a fukn game…. but you are right, domestic violence is bad..wherever it happens. Lets not go down that path though.
6 Mar 2013, 10:56 am
@Hurricane-38:
my problem is with him only making a stink about one kiwi ref pushing a kiwi player.
6 Mar 2013, 10:58 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-45:
lol
I believe Keo lets you do all the complaining about the refs…. As he knows he could never live up to your standard
6 Mar 2013, 11:01 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-45:
Are you saying if it wasn’t a kiwi player nobody would have complained?
6 Mar 2013, 11:01 am
What do you tell Poppa’s Mum with two black eyes???
Nothing, he already told her twice
6 Mar 2013, 11:02 am
Bakkies.
I see you havent mentioned the blatant cheating that allowed Chilli to score his try?
I’ll just assume you didn’t watch the game huh? lol
6 Mar 2013, 11:02 am
@Heavens Game-48:
Shut up.
6 Mar 2013, 11:04 am
@keo-8: You are such a liar.
Everyone knows that 9 week old staffies never sleep.
Ever.
6 Mar 2013, 11:08 am
@stormersboy-51: Maybe she’s been sniffing at his desk
6 Mar 2013, 11:08 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-45: @keo-22:
Not sure why you two are complaining about the Kiwi Ref>?
your Bulls won the SR tropghy in 2007 because of him, you did not find him bad then??
Justsayin…
6 Mar 2013, 11:08 am
@Hurricane-46:
there are serious issues affecting this competition, Hurricane
serious issues..!….
6 Mar 2013, 11:08 am
“The Australian-based Kiwi, who in Justin Marshall’s autobiography…”
Sounds like a valid, unbiased source.
6 Mar 2013, 11:12 am
Walsh should have been sacked http://t.co/jak4ax6EdZ via @sharethis he lost the plot and there should have been a consequence.
6 Mar 2013, 11:12 am
@Transformation-36:
Haha, you quote Christi van der Westhuizen. That alone makes the quote worthless.
You do realise she’s about as radical leftist as you get? The Nancy Pelosi or Al Sharpton of SA.
6 Mar 2013, 11:12 am
@gunther-47:
that and some…
i dont wat to get myself worked up about this.
@the curse-49:
Everybody knows that the waka is leaking
Everybody knows that the captain lied
Everybody got this broken feeling
Like their father or their dog just died
6 Mar 2013, 11:12 am
@Tacitus-56:
Rather, the female Michale Moore of SA.
6 Mar 2013, 11:12 am
@silent_shadow-55: Justin Marshall is an idiot… was an arrogant AB and has maintained that persona..
said it before, refs should have to attend some sort of academy every year where they are assessed on their knowledge, application and understanding of the laws.. they dont make the grade they dont get paid..
the game deserves better..
6 Mar 2013, 11:14 am
@the curse-59:
“sarcasm”
‘quote – unquote’…
6 Mar 2013, 11:14 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-57: so, no response to Chilli’s blatant off side try?
isnt this a form of cheating?
6 Mar 2013, 11:15 am
Justin Marshall is one of the best commentators and most unbiased, he should have snot klapped Steve “i love myself and the bottles of booze” Walsh
6 Mar 2013, 11:16 am
@Sharks_are_gonna_get_you-53:
do you honeslty believe the Bulls were NOT in the game?
6 Mar 2013, 11:17 am
@Tacitus-56: hahaha label her & attempt to discredit her & never address the “hard questions”
6 Mar 2013, 11:17 am
@Transformation-64:
Which hard questions would those be? To me it just looks like strawmen and leftist ranting.
6 Mar 2013, 11:20 am
@Transformation-64:
Ignore Tac the Twat, he’s a dying breed.
Give this a read and then check the poster below. As with all things, it’s the poor who suffer the most.
http://mg.co.za/article/2013-03-05-oscar-pistorius-have-white-fears-gone-too-far
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/306221_254753197993381_1218849371_n.jpg
6 Mar 2013, 11:22 am
@Bagel-66: Yeah
6 Mar 2013, 11:25 am
@Bagel-66: Or the equally disturbing…
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/549294_254753564660011_1663779751_n.jpg
6 Mar 2013, 11:27 am
@Tacitus-65: as you were.
6 Mar 2013, 11:29 am
@Transformation-64:
Are Afrikaans males the only segment of South African society who think they own women ?
It’s sad that an incompetent minister and a desperate and deluded father have hijacked a serious debate.
Answers on a postcard please.
6 Mar 2013, 11:29 am
Ref Steve Walsh still winning friends & influencing people. And he’s headed our way
http://t.co/TqmQLmwpZx #rterugby
6 Mar 2013, 11:36 am
@gunther-70:
Hang on there tiger.
I don’t know anyone who thinks he owns his wife. It is not a characteristic of our culture, other than maybe some sub-culture from the dregs of our community that I have never had the occassion to mingle with. So it is utterly inaccurate to claim that it is.
It is a characteristic of individuals with psychological problems.
6 Mar 2013, 11:40 am
For those that didn’t see the push.
I just watched it now, seems pretty damn harmless to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifQh80FGum8
6 Mar 2013, 11:42 am
@Tacitus-71:
Indeed.
So lets move forward.
Do these people come from other sectors of society as well?
The fact of the matter is that Lulu has headed a department that has done nothing to justify its existence. Suddenly ahead of a cabinet reshuffle she has a large bek?
Ja well no fine.
6 Mar 2013, 11:43 am
@keo-19: Compared to the Northern Hemisphere, the refs in the S15 have been very lenient re the 5-second rule.
6 Mar 2013, 11:43 am
@gunther-73:
It’s unfair to single her out. No one in the entire cabinet other than Pravin and Trevor has done anything to justify their existence.
Lulu is just par for the course.
6 Mar 2013, 11:45 am
@Bagel-72: It is the intent if a player did a ‘harmless push’ to a referee out of frustration he would be suspended.
I am challenging the fact that because it seems harmless it is excused. He, as a referee should, not be lashing out at a player physically and his arm action showed the intent to push Smith out of the way and not to avoid Smith because he was in his way. There is a huge difference.
And to compound it Bray admits Walsh got the decision wrong and Smith as captain was within his rights to question it. It was a match turning call and yet there is no consequence. The ref made the wrong call, potentially cost the Canes a try and a winning result and then push the captain out of the way.
6 Mar 2013, 11:46 am
@gunther-73:
As for Oscar’s media team – they’re only distancing themselves from his dad’s comments insofar as it helps with his case and PR campaign.
Their condemnation of his statement says absolutely zero about it’s validity or lack thereof.
6 Mar 2013, 11:47 am
@i_love_u_bakkiesbotha-63:
I thought you were all for fair refs…..it seems that a team can have a ref cheating for them only if they are in the game…… is that what you are saying?
Or are you actually saying refs can cheat only for your team only?
Which one is it?
6 Mar 2013, 11:49 am
@gunther-70: did she or i say anything of the sort?
did she say they’re only ones pronevto violence because of their upbringing?
6 Mar 2013, 11:51 am
@Tacitus-77:
Apparently he’s not close to his father at all.
6 Mar 2013, 11:53 am
@Transformation-79:
Don’t be an apologist.
Then why single them out apropos the genflder violence in this country.
It was a fatuously maladroit comment.
6 Mar 2013, 11:56 am
@Sharks_are_gonna_get_you-62:
there is plenty of history there I can assure you of that
6 Mar 2013, 11:59 am
@gunther-81: i can’t answer for lulu but anyone trying to diminish christi’s article with ad hominem utterings runs the risk of looking imperceptive.
6 Mar 2013, 12:01 pm
@Transformation-83:
Of course you can’t answer for Lulu.
Who could?
6 Mar 2013, 12:01 pm
@NZINCHINA-82: lol I am sure, for me Justin was an excellent player, and is proving to be one of the better commentators around.
6 Mar 2013, 12:02 pm
@gunther-81: The honourable Minister makes an interesting point…
Do you dismiss her because she is black or not a citizen of Cape Town – the little Visdorpie aspiring to be an exclusive “Monaco of Azansi”…
Is the honourable Minister a mere refugee to turn up that oh so sensitive Constantia nose at, while spilling your G&T and choking on your Cohiba…
Twat…
6 Mar 2013, 12:02 pm
@gunther-81: as far as i being an “apologist”
go attempt at trying to silence by ridicule…the article i posted deals with more than just lulu’s comments but hey she’s easy prey
6 Mar 2013, 12:02 pm
@Tacitus-77:
“Their condemnation of his statement says absolutely zero about it’s validity or lack thereof.”
Or, looking at it from your perspective…just from the other side: To me it just looks like strawmen and rightist ranting.
6 Mar 2013, 12:04 pm
@keo-76: I ref high school games in Winter and I just sympathise for the guy. I actually think he’s a good ref.
He clearly made a bad call there and was feeling the pressure and then he had to move the mark 10m forward ASAP and Smith was literally in his face. He may have had a justified complaint but every Captain knows or should know that you don’t approach the ref unless play has stopped or at least calmed down. Walsh is hardly going to reverse the penalty.
He then shoves the bloke out the way with a raised elbow and apologises straight afterwards. Sure he probably should have ran around but then are we going to allow our refs to be treated like footballers treat them???
Smith isn’t fussed about it so why should we be? All parties are brushing it off for what it was IMO. If Hammett has a problem with his calls then that’s great, complain, that’s necessary to raise the bar, but come on you’re making this a storm in a teacup to try and drive an agenda about refs being more accountable.
6 Mar 2013, 12:04 pm
@Sharks_are_gonna_get_you-85:
I haven’t heard much of him being up this way but what I have heard he’s very good, him and Walshy hated each other it nearly got to the point where he couldn’t ref Canterbury games because of it.
6 Mar 2013, 12:04 pm
This is Rugby.
It is Played by humans,
It is Refereed by humans.
If you want a mistake free game, yes we can have that.
But it will take 4 and a half hours to play a game. (i.e. American Football).
Steve was in the wrong sure, he knows it.
We all know it. So what.
If Conrad can move on, so can we.
I hope Steve enjoys his NH jaunt.
6 Mar 2013, 12:05 pm
@Heavens Game-86:
Enter the leg jumper.
@Transformation-87:
Where’s the ridicule?
6 Mar 2013, 12:07 pm
@Transformation-83: Tacitus is, from what I’ve gathered reading his posts over the years, extremely conservative and likely extremely religious.
As a Leftist I have a problem with the former, but the combination makes for someone who is not going to change his mind on pretty much anything.
6 Mar 2013, 12:09 pm
@Bagel-66: @Bagel-68: Quite shallow and rather obvious, for an aspiring Verligte trying so hard to be a caring lilly liberal…
Lets shed a tear about the poor and downtrodden, meanwhile breathing a sigh of relief and thanking privileged mercies that it is NIMBY – not in my back yard…
Yup, the talk left walk right conundrum… Ask governess Godzille about that one…
6 Mar 2013, 12:09 pm
@Transformation-89:
If you accuse me of ridiculing her lifelong agenda of “whites caused all the problems in the world” then I’m guilty as charged.
6 Mar 2013, 12:12 pm
@gunther-70:
Not the only ones but for some reason they are responsible for the most family murders taking place in SA.
Note, I said MOST. They are not the only ones who take their family with them to the other side if they reach that point of no return. However, it is more prevalent amongst that community than any other in the country.
6 Mar 2013, 12:14 pm
@nama1-98:
That is a bare faced lie. Add up the family murders in this country and I guarantee you that your statement is devoid of all truth.
How can you make a statement like that, without the facts to back it up? Astonishing, and quite typical of the type of commentary we’ve seen on this issue.
6 Mar 2013, 12:21 pm
@Bagel-91:
Good Post.
Keo likes to fuel controversy,
controversy creates hits,
hits create money.
6 Mar 2013, 12:21 pm
RT @sportproducer: Ref Steve Walsh still winning friends & influencing people. And he’s headed our way
http://t.co/TqmQLmwpZx #rterugby
6 Mar 2013, 12:23 pm
@Bagel-95:
i actually don’t care what tac thinks he is tbh. i figure he is entitled to his opinions however warped.
@Tacitus-97: i wasn’t talking to you.
6 Mar 2013, 12:26 pm
@NZINCHINA-92: lol, silly really, but yeah we hear a lot of Justinand he has been very good, i know Poopscooperpoppa does not like him because when a Kiwi player did something wrong or got away with doing something wrong Justin said it as it was.
If the Ref was wrong Justin says so no matter who the benefactor was.
6 Mar 2013, 12:27 pm
This is very old article but I doubt that things have change that much. Maybe now that guns became available for other communities as well, things changed a bit afa the stats go but I somehow doubt that very much.
Kerk, politiek kan tot gesinsmoord bydra
GESINSMOORDE neem baie vinnig in Suid-Afrika toe. Dié sorgwekkende tendens kom veral onder blanke, Afrikaanse Suid-Afrikaners voor, waar die pa sy hele gesin uitwis, het in Kaapstad op ‘n simposium van die Instituut vir Kliniese Sielkunde oor geweld in Suid-Afrika geblyk. Die redes waarom veral Afrikaners dié uitweg kies, is moontlik gewortel in veral dié dinge wat onlosmaaklik aan die Afrikaner gekoppel is en wat hy as ideale en geloofwaardige modelle vir sy optrede beskou – sy kerk en politiek.
Ons Mediese Verslaggewer, MARë HUDSON, doen verslag.
GESINSMOORDE in Suid-Afrika het die afgelope vyf jaar sorgwekkend toegeneem en is besig om ‘n té algemene verskynsel te word. Gesinsmoorde het van 10 in 1983 toegeneem tot 13 in 1984, 17 in 1985, 27 in 1986 en 50 verlede jaar. Altesame 126 gesinsmoorde is sedert 1983 tot in Junie vanjaar in Suid-Afrika gepleeg, volgens statistieke wat op die simposium deur mnr. Derik Momberg van die departement van sielkunde van die Universiteit van Stellenbosch bekend gemaak is. Mnr. Momberg is ook ‘n teoloog. In ‘n ontleding van die 40 gesinsmoorde wat van 1983 tot 1985 gepleeg is, het die volgende geblyk: 26 van die gesinsmoordenaars was mans en 14 vroue; die meeste was tussen 30 en 38 jaar oud; 38 van die gesinne wat uitgewis is, was blankes, terwyl 2 Indiërs was; minstens 60 persent was Afrikaansspekend; en die moorde kom onder alle sosiaal-ekonomiese klasse voor.
Gesinsmoorde kom dus veral onder blanke Afrikaanse gesinne voor, en dit is die pa wat sy gesin uitwis. Hoewel gesinsmooorde ook onder ander bevolkingsgroepe voorkom, kan dit in Suid-Afrika as kulturele verskynsel gesien word. Sommige verduidelikings wat vir ‘n gesinsmoord gegee word, is dat die pa moontlik hom en sy hele gesin vermoor omdat hy na ‘n oplossing vir homself soek en sy gesin daarby insluit. Hy “verlos” sy gesin soos hy ook homself “verlos” en tree meestal nie uit wraaksugtige en haatgedagtes op nie. In ‘n soeke na moontlike redes waarom dit veral Afrikaners is wat hulle gesinne uitwis, blyk dat veral twee faktore ‘n groot invloed op die Afrikanergesin het: sy kerklike tradisie en sy politiek. Indien die twee invloede effe uit verband geruk word, kan dit ‘n pa laat dink dat ‘n gesinsmoord al oplossing vir sy en sy gesin se probleme is. ‘n Mens skoei sy optrede op die modelle waarna hy opsien. In die Afrikaner se geval was en is sy kerk en politiek onlosmaaklik aan hom verbonde. Die Afrikaner skoei sy gesin se gesagstruktuur op die model van die kerklike tradisie – veral dié van die gereformeerde kerke – en sy oplossing van probleme en konflik op die politieke model: ‘n outokratiese bestuurstyl waar die gesagsfiguur namens die ander besluite neem, eksterne inmenging nie as reg beskou word nie, en waar mag fisiek vertoon word. Die tradisionele Afrikanergesin bestaan nog uit ‘n patriargale sisteem met die man wat namens sy gesin besluite neem en namens sy gesin optree. Volgens die kerktradisie is die man emosioneel en finansieel alleen verantwooordleik vir sy gesin. Dit bring dikwels mee dat hy ‘n misplaaste verantwoordelikheid vir sy gesin aanvaar. Dié gesagstruktuur plaas nie net geweldige druk op die man nie, maar plaas hom ook in ‘n posisie om die mag te misbruik. Die gesinsmoordenaar raak oorbetrokke by sy gesin en aanvaar namens hulle verantwoordelikheid vir alles – ook hul lewe. Dit blyk dat veral gereformeerde kerkleiers ‘n oënskynlike onvermoë het om kreatief by te dra om die mense te help om hul probleme op te los. Dit blyk dat kerkleiers, wat as die gewete van die volk beskou word, dikwels met alle mag argaïese en dikwels uitgediende strukture verdedig en in stand hou. Die gesinsmoordenaar se optrede kan gesien word as ‘n onvermoë om konflikte te hanteer. Verskeie faktore – soos geld, droogte, huweliksprobleme, seksuele en werkprobleme – laat die gesinsmoordenaar so inkompetent voel dat hy aan geen ander alterantief kan dink as ‘n gesinsmoord nie. Die kerk verkondig die outokratiese gesinsisteem, maar ook dat lidmate gehoorsaam moet wees aan die staat. Hoewel dit die taak van enige regering is om sekere verantwoordelikheid vir sy onderdane te aanvaar, kan hy ook sy grense oorskry en oorbetrokke raak deur te veel beskermende wetgewing. Die Afrikaner wat sy gesin uitwis, is in die gesagsposisie van die gesin en tree op volgens die modelle wat hy ken – sy kerk en politieke bestel.
Wat is die oplossings vir gesinsmoord?: &cchar1; Op kort termyn moet die massamedia sensitiewer wees oor die onderwerp; &cchar1; Op lang termyn moet die bou van ‘n geestesgesonde gesin – waar die man en vrou medeverantwoordelikheid aanvaar vir die opvoeding van hul kinders en mekaar beskerm en ondersteun – gepropageer word; en &cchar1; Kinders moet van jongs af geleer word om probleme en konfliksituasies reg te hanteer – nie deur woede of geweld nie, maar deur aanvaarbare, gesonde oplossings sonder dat hulle hul perke van gesag en verantwoordelikheid oorskry.
Sorry if it is a bit long.
6 Mar 2013, 12:32 pm
@nama1-103:
I don’t see the comparative stats there. To make a statement that most family murders occur in a certain population group, you need to show me the comparative stats for other population groups.
We are told that most murders in SA are by close aquaintances and family members.
Since the vast majority of murders occur in the black community, it is highly unlikely that it is white family murders that constitute the bulk of these murders between close family members.
I think you just sucked that statement out of your arse.
6 Mar 2013, 12:32 pm
@gunther-94: Stormersboy… where is he?
6 Mar 2013, 12:34 pm
@nama1-103: “Sorry if it is a bit long.”
“Sorry if you don’t read or understand Afrikaans.”
6 Mar 2013, 12:35 pm
@nama1-98: you won’t get him to deal with the article holistically…
it is written by a leftist & quotes lulu xingwana: those two aspects render the rest of the article invalid
6 Mar 2013, 12:39 pm
Vok maar dis hoog Afrikaans
All I can see is they took stats between 1983 and 1985
6 Mar 2013, 12:45 pm
@Bagel-91:
@cane-93: Excellent posts which pretty much sums everything up IMO.
Keo is making a mountain out of a molehill.
6 Mar 2013, 12:48 pm
@Tacitus-104:
What do you even mean?
Momberg made an analysis of 40 family murders. 38 of which were committed by whites (English & Afrikaans) and 2 by Indians.
“At least 60%,” that would be 24/40, were committed by Afrikaans people. It’s clear that the majority of family murders in this case, were committed by white Afrikaan people.
You have to distinguish between family murders and the murder of your partner/murder of an individual family member like your brother.. Family murder, as the name suggest, involves killing your partner/wife and your children. (GESINSMOORD).
@Finfan-106:
I was raised in Afrikaans, boet. Believe me, I fully comprehend what I read there.
6 Mar 2013, 12:48 pm
C’mon Keo, storm in a teacup stuff this is. That was clearly an accidental push as Smith was genuinely in the way and too close to the ref, who apologised immediately anyway. How many refs have been injured and knocked unconscious by a player over the years by mistake?
Walsh is probably the best ref in Australasia. Not saying much about the standard of their refs, but they are way better than the useless Norther Hemisphere refs. I always thought that Scott Young from NZ was a great ref, too bad he retired a few years ago at a still young age.
6 Mar 2013, 12:51 pm
@nama1-110: You are missing the point: Some of the bloggers here were NOT raised in Afrikaans. Boet.
Comprehend English?
6 Mar 2013, 12:52 pm
@Sharks_are_gonna_get_you-102:
one of the few then
Now you guys are fighting over who murders who and what colour murders their family the most, sadly there will never be any harmony in your country.
6 Mar 2013, 12:55 pm
@Dawn-108:
1983-1988.
I did say it was an old article. Not many scientific studies have been done about this phenomena apparently.
6 Mar 2013, 12:58 pm
@Finfan-112:
OK, now I get you. My bad.
Didn’t see your inverted commas. Apologies.
6 Mar 2013, 12:59 pm
@Tacitus-79: I think you are Oscar’s daddy.
6 Mar 2013, 13:00 pm
@NZINCHINA-113: Eish mate, those guys are, not everyone is, I am here to talk about rugby, not sure about them.
Fact is crime is all over the world, these issues are not just a South African problem,
I support the Black and White
and excuse the pun lmao
6 Mar 2013, 13:01 pm
@NZINCHINA-113: NOw be honest here young man, you supporting the Kings this weekend??
6 Mar 2013, 13:03 pm
@nama1-103:
That’s the basis for your assumption?
A twenty year article?
Wow!
A woman dies at her partner’shands every 8 hours and its “predominantly” Afrikaans people? The Mail and Guardian article is not talking about family murders specifically here but thhe stats concerning the murder of partners and spouses. Your article is talking about something else. Interesting as it is.
6 Mar 2013, 13:06 pm
@nama1-115: No problem. (Another generalisation – as with family murders – is that all rugby lovers understand Afrikaans,
)
6 Mar 2013, 13:10 pm
RT @keocoza: Walsh should have been sacked: MARK KEOHANE writes Steve Walsh should have been given the chop, even if just … http://t.c …
6 Mar 2013, 13:11 pm
@gunther-43:
And here I thought she was trying to avoid his Spear.
6 Mar 2013, 13:11 pm
The Sharks
1. Tendai Mtawarira
2. Craig Burden
3. Jannie du Plessis
4. Anton Bresler
5. Franco van der Merwe
6. Marcell Coetzee
7. Jean Deysel
8. Ryan Kankowski
9. Cobus Reinach
10. Patrick Lambie
11. Lwazi Mvovo
12. Francois Steyn (Captain)
13. Paul Jordaan
14. JP Pietersen
15. Louis Ludik
Replacements
16. Kyle Cooper
17. Wiehahn Herbst
18. Pieter-Steph du Toit
19. Jacques Botes
20. Charl McLeod
21. Meyer Bosman
22. Odwa Ndungane
6 Mar 2013, 13:12 pm
@gunther-119:
It was reported here, that 1200 people a year die in Police Custody in SA.
That’s one every eight hours.
This is truely disturbing,
Even if on half correct.
(Reported after the Mozambique Taxi Driver death).
6 Mar 2013, 13:16 pm
I’ll trade 10 Peypers, 20 Jason Jaftas, 50 Craig Jouberts and few loose change in Pro Legotas for a one Steve Walsh, as BAD as he is!
And bad he is, make no mistake
Just to demonstrate how fraudulent, cheating and dishonest have South African referees became last 3 seasons under SARU and Andre Watson watch.
6 Mar 2013, 13:17 pm
@Sharks_are_gonna_get_you-123: Good to see that they are resting key players for the Queens game…
6 Mar 2013, 13:18 pm
@nama1-98: thats kaka my friend nama.
if you have stats then publish them please?
6 Mar 2013, 13:18 pm
@nama1-110:
Point 1.
So a sample of 40 murders were taken from 1983-1985, and not a single one was from the black community? Yeah, that makes sense. It’s pretty obvious that the black community was just left out of this study, which makes sense, given that this was during the Apartheid years.
Point 2.
So 60% of the murders committed by white men were by Afrikaans white men. Again, this is entirely logical, given that Afrikaners made up about 60% of the white population at the time. In fact, they probably made up around 65% of the white population at the time, so they are actually under represented in this sample.
Point 3.
Why on earth would you exclude murders of one’s partner from this debate, given that the whole debate is about the supposed Afrikaans, Calvinistic tendency to view their wives as so-called property?
In conclusion, it is farcical to base your argument on stats that didn’t include a comparison to the black African population at all, and which showed that Afrikaans white males are statistical no more prone to family murders than English speaking white males.
All that this study shows is that Indians are extraordinarily peace loving.
Furthermore, 40 murders over 3 years out of a white population at the time of around 5 million, equates to about 13 murders per year, which is less than 0,00002% of the population, or in normal murder ratio language, about 0.2 per 100 000 of the population.
That is not supporting your case at all.
6 Mar 2013, 13:19 pm
@cane-124: Sorry, but that I don’t believe.
No ways!
6 Mar 2013, 13:21 pm
@Tacitus-104:
http://www.ajol.info/index.php/hsa/article/download/10178/2310
Here’s a link to a study that was done by the HSRC. Note that this study was done more recently. In this instance 11 cases were researched and the findings wrt population groups were as follows:
Blacks: 3
Combination of black and Coloured: 1
White: 7
Note that they did not distinguish between white Afrikaans speaking and English speaking whites here.
Quite an interesting read from a mental health point of view.
6 Mar 2013, 13:23 pm
Good lord this is a complete non incident, what a load
6 Mar 2013, 13:24 pm
@gunther-120: i really dont know the stats i must say but making an assertion based on a 20 year old article, published by an afrikaner, in a time when accurate stats probably werent even kept about other race groups seems a bit of a stretch.
6 Mar 2013, 13:25 pm
@nama1-130: Coming in late here but Nam’s surely you are not agreeing with the viewpoint that white afrikaans calvanistic men are responsible for the out of control murders in SA?
6 Mar 2013, 13:26 pm
@Tacitus-128:
So do you suffer from bruxism?
You said you needed time so I diarised it to today’s date.
6 Mar 2013, 13:27 pm
I recall a certain Brian Mujati getting banned for 6 weeks for accidentally shoving nigel owens. when you see the video it’s clear mujati is just trying to get to a ruck and owens is in the way but that still didn’t justify contact….how is this incident any differenmt??????
6 Mar 2013, 13:28 pm
@nama1-130:
There are something like 18000 murders a year in SA (or some other number in the thousands). Of these, the majority are between family membrs and aquaintances.
If even 10% of these are between spouses and spousal partners, that equates to around 1800 spousal murders a year in SA.
References to 5 or 10 or even 20 so called “family murders” in the white Afrikaans community per year don’t make up even a fraction of this total.
6 Mar 2013, 13:29 pm
@nama1-130: i have to ask why you are so intent on researching this kind of thing nama?
if you are a mental health professional then it is understandable.
if not, it seems to me like you are trying to prove that fat racist lulu correct.
6 Mar 2013, 13:29 pm
I’m sure most of you have read what Oscar’s father, Henke said.
Here is what I want to know: clearly the Pistorius’ are Afrikaans, but is Oscar Afrikaans?
If so why is his name Oscar Leonard Carl Pistorius? The tradition to give 3 names is Afrikaans but why the English names?
6 Mar 2013, 13:29 pm
@Sheriff-134:
No my teeth are fine thanks.
6 Mar 2013, 13:30 pm
@nama1-130:
It is really quite simple.
We have an extremely high “intimate femicide” rate, i.e. a woman being murdered by her husband or partner. This high rate is an indictment of a deeply patriarchal society, where some men feel that they have the final say in whether their families live or die.
This is not helped by extremely weak implementation of court protection orders as well as apathy from most policemen regarding domestic violence.
South Africa is a society under extreme stress. You have to take into account shifting demographic patterns, weak economic performance, unemployment, a culture of substance abuse – these all contribute.
But family murders do tend to be committed by men who one can describe as “authoritarian” as well as strongly patriarchal.
I think it is a misnomer to link it to a specific race or cultural grouping. I think socio-economic class has a considerable impact as well.
6 Mar 2013, 13:30 pm
@Skeppie-133:
Seeing that you are coming in late, I’d suggest that you go back on the thread and read what is being discussed before you ask me a question like that.
No, is the answer to your question.
6 Mar 2013, 13:30 pm
walsh just needed to take a 20cm swerve to the left to avoid smith……he clearly knows what he’s doing when he shoves him but cleverly apologizes straight away to mask it as ‘an accident’. kudos to smith for keeping his cool, but if u replay the incident you can clearly hear smith saying “easy easy easy” when walsh shoves him, a clear sign that he could sense walsh’s venom.
6 Mar 2013, 13:32 pm
@BrumbiesBoy-129:
A bit of research shows I was wrong.
But not outrageously wrong.
“WorldOver 900 die in South African police custody”
JOHANNESBURG: About 932 people died in police custody in South Africa in 2011-12, a report by the Independent Police Investigative Directorate (Ipid) revealed.
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KwaZulu-Natal had 268 deaths with Gauteng second at 217 deaths and Eastern Cape had 120, the Dispatch Online reported.Meanwhile, eight police officers, implicated in the death of an East Rand taxi driver, appeared in the Daveyton Magistrate’s Court yesterday.The two warrant officers and six constables face a murder charge following the death of Mido Macia while in police custody. The officers allegedly tied 27-year-old Macia to the back of a police van and dragged him along a street in Daveyton on Tuesday.
6 Mar 2013, 13:36 pm
@flanka-142: What you couldn’t hear was Smith telling Walsh that he had fckall between the ears, was a blind as a bat alcoholic, although what he said about Walsh’s mother is not quite audible.
6 Mar 2013, 13:37 pm
@nama1-103: Very hazy… Dont you find it interesting that only White and Indian ethnic groups are mentioned…
Is this because only detailed statistics of White and Indian groups were collected…
Or does the apparent fact that 60% of family murders are committed by Afrikaans males appeal to you…
Do you think this study is valid in implying that Afrikaans males are more likely to commit family murder? Do you subscribe to ethnic/racial differences – whether cultural or genetic…
If so, then do you think that this article is equally valid:
“The lead article in the June 2005 issue of Psychology, Public Policy and Law, a journal of the American Psychological Association, examined 10 categories of research evidence from around the world to contrast “a hereditarian model (50% genetic-50% cultural) and a culture-only model (0% genetic-100% cultural).”
The paper, “Thirty Years of Research on Race Differences in Cognitive Ability,” by J. Philippe Rushton of the University of Western Ontario and Arthur R. Jensen of the University of California at Berkeley, appeared with a positive commentary by Linda Gottfredson of the University of Delaware, three critical ones (by Robert Sternberg of Yale University, Richard Nisbett of the University of Michigan, and Lisa Suzuki & Joshua Aronson of New York University), and the authors’ reply.
“Neither the existence nor the size of race differences in IQ are a matter of dispute, only their cause,” write the authors. The Black-White difference has been found consistently from the time of the massive World War I Army testing of 90 years ago to a massive study of over 6 million corporate, military, and higher-education test-takers in 2001.”
6 Mar 2013, 13:38 pm
@nama1-141: Fair enough
6 Mar 2013, 13:39 pm
@nama1-141:
You seemingly have lost interest in the Stormers rugby lately diverting subjects elsewhere?
Or is it just you preparing yourself for Saturday show down?
Well, your concerns are valid, Peyper ,as cheating as he is has to consider his Test career too, he will donate the Srormers 10-12 points but not more than that, it may not be enough
Than you can blame the apartheid system again
6 Mar 2013, 13:41 pm
@The Rangerman-132:
Indeed.
Somebody is trying too hard.
6 Mar 2013, 13:48 pm
@gunther-148: well i think HG just took it to another level
6 Mar 2013, 13:51 pm
@Tacitus-136:
Tac, I think you’ll agree that wiping out your family before killing yourself, is something very, very out of the ordinary. Therefor it captures the interest of mental health professional so much. Why would a man, or woman, for that matter feel the need to kill his/her partner and children when he/she does not feel like living anymore.
Let us not confuse this phenomena with plain murder. Yes, it is but a drop in the ocean compared to the total murders each year in our country (16 000+) last year but it is exactly because it is so rare and mindboggling that it is studied as a field on its own.
@The Rangerman-137:
Would you have a problem if research show that Lulu was right?
Last week a police reservist in Springbok killed his two teenage children before killing himself. I’m trying to understand why someone would do that.
@WP-Forever-140:
“I think socio-economic class has a considerable impact as well.”
Apparently not.
“Gesinsmoorde, wat dikwels op die dader se selfmoord uitloop, vang die aandag van sielkundiges en sosioloë vas. Die psige van die dader kan dikwels tot die sosio-ekonomiese omgewing en selfs die tyd van die jaar teruggevoer word, en is dikwels voorkombaar.
Baie dikwels het die dader vooraf soveel seine om hulp uitgestuur maar die omdat die persoon se vrese dikwels buitensporig teenoor die werklike aard van die probleme gelyk het, is dit verkeerd hanteer.
Sekere statistiese gegewens dui aan dat daar dikwels vooraf waarskuwingstekens was. Wêreldwyd word 90 % van die gesinsmoorde deur mans gepleeg, en in die meeste gevalle word wettige vuurwapens ingespan.
Sosioloë neem waar dat dit dikwels volg op tye wanneer ekonomiese resessie aanbreek. Sielkundiges neem die aflosstokkie en wys daarop dat die meeste gesinsmoorde oor die feestyd plaasvind wanneer mense alleen is, meer depressief raak en daar meer geldelike druk binne die gesin bestaan.
Sosioloë wys daarop dat sulke tragedies gewoonlik volg op veranderings soos industrialisasie en morele verval. Sielkundiges soek hierna die sneller-oorsake, soos ’n krisis, geld, egskeiding of verlies van werk. Internasionale studies dui daarop dat moorde wat op selfmoord uitloop en gesinsgeweld ‘n piek onder werkloosheid bereik. ‘n Toename is juis in 2009 met die aanbreek van die huidige wêreld-ekonomiese krisis voorspel.
Heelwat is ook al geskryf oor hoekom soveel polisielede by sulke dade betrokke raak. Die probleem is veel komplekser as die blote uitwys van statistiese gegewens soos dat die polisie oor wettige vuurwapens beskik en dat die meeste gesinsmoorde met wettige vuurwapens gepleeg word en dat dit dus te wagte is. In baie gevalle het dit na die tragedie geblyk dat die persoon aan depressie gelei het – gewoonlik weens werksomstandighede soos skynbaar onredelike verplasings, en selfs dat die persoon onder behandeling en medikasie vir depressie was. Vrae word dan ook gevra oor hoekom die persoon se vuurwapen nie teruggeneem is nie.
Apologies to our English readers. (Thanks Finfan
)
6 Mar 2013, 13:54 pm
@nama1-150:
They dont want their families to suffer in this hell hole without them?
6 Mar 2013, 13:57 pm
@nama1-150: bud do you really expect me to believe that lulu had any research or stats to back her claim?
just a small example for you:
when i was a guide at londolozi we had a tracker who stabbed his wife to death and then shot himself.
this was because she had miscarried a week before and had not stayed with him for an obligatory two weeks afterwards according to local shangaan custom.
was he in your study?
or was his case merely marked down as: murder?
and did he feel he “owned” his wife and that she needed to be punished for leaving his side?
who the f u k knows, not me, but your smilies and glibness about this topic and attempts to fingerpoint or blame white afrikaners is not very nice.
6 Mar 2013, 13:58 pm
@Heavens Game-145:
Every now and again…just every now and again, that onderrok hang out.
@Hondo-147:
No man, I already put my colours to the mast on Monday evening when I said the Stormers will win by 1 (one) point.
6 Mar 2013, 14:01 pm
Would it be fair to say that 50% more family murders take place than in the Black, Coloured and Indian communities combined?
That is if one are to believe the stats that are out there at the moment.
6 Mar 2013, 14:01 pm
@nama1-153: I that so Nama… No answer I see…
The eugenic premise you quote is very similar to that which I do…
Do you understand the point of my post? Or do you just see Black and White, or “Calvinists” and the rest…
6 Mar 2013, 14:02 pm
@Heavens Game-155: Should be “Is that so Nama?”
6 Mar 2013, 14:03 pm
Walsh should have been sacked http://t.co/IQPuPh0Wfa via @sharethis
6 Mar 2013, 14:04 pm
@nama1-154: publish these stats please because your statement is quite difficult to understand.
6 Mar 2013, 14:08 pm
@The Rangerman-152:
You are deflecting as expected. I ask you a straight up question and you reply with a question. Why don’t you give a straight answer and no, I’m not defending that woman at all.
“was he in your study?”
I did not do the study. I was merely pointing out findings that was made from a research done by the HSRC. (p.130). Yyou know the Human Science Research Council. Now seeing that this is the organisation that did the study, I would suggest that it was done as scientifically as you can get.
6 Mar 2013, 14:11 pm
@nama1-158: “Human Science Research Council”…
Not really world renown for world class research, Nama you schmuck…
Sorry to you…
6 Mar 2013, 14:12 pm
@nama1-158:
That article points to a specific sample that was selected. A sample of about 10 cases.
What was the basis for selection? Amount of easily available data on record? Random selection? Representative selection?
I repeat the point that you unilaterally declared the murder of an entire family to be the narrow area of focus here, where the larger debate is about a specific group of men being possessive towards their wives and viewing them as property, leading to gender based violence.
This should absolutely include all spousal and spousal equivalent/girlfriend related murders. Of course, this does not suit your narrow agenda, does it.
6 Mar 2013, 14:12 pm
@nama1-158: deflecting?
i am telling you lulu had no statistical basis for her statement?
neither do i so i am asking you for the stats which lead to your assertions but it seems like you are projectiong your deflection onto me
6 Mar 2013, 14:13 pm
@The Rangerman-157:
http://www.ajol.info/index.php/hsa/article/download/10178/2310
Here’s a link to a study that was done by the HSRC. Note that this study was done more recently.
In this instance 11 cases were researched and the findings wrt population groups were as follows:
Blacks: 3
Combination of black and Coloured: 1
White: 7
Note that they did not distinguish between white Afrikaans speaking and English speaking whites here.
Do me a favour and read the whole report before you come back to me.
6 Mar 2013, 14:16 pm
71.gunther: Reply to this comment
6 Mar 2013, 11:29 am
@Transformation-64:
Are Afrikaans males the only segment of South African society who think they own women ?
It’s sad that an incompetent minister and a desperate and deluded father have hijacked a serious debate.
Answers on a postcard please.
98.nama1: Reply to this comment
6 Mar 2013, 12:12 pm
@gunther-70:
Not the only ones but for some reason they are responsible for the most family murders taking place in SA.
Note, I said MOST. They are not the only ones who take their family with them to the other side if they reach that point of no return. However, it is more prevalent amongst that community than any other in the country.
———————————————————————————————————-
now this was your commentary nama. you directly blamed afrikaners for ” most family murders taking place in SA.”
apartheid and its legacy i suppose.
6 Mar 2013, 14:19 pm
@nama1-162: i did read it bud.
its a sample study looking at causal behaviour not a statistical analysis of the prevalence of this tragic occurrence by racial or linguistic grouping.
you have tried to paint it as such as in your post which i have reposted above and that is bankrupt reasoning, now find another line of reasoning to support lunatic lulu
6 Mar 2013, 14:21 pm
@nama1-162:
so if i walk around my neighbourhood and there are 3 poodles, 4 dobermans and a single alsation then that is nationally representative?
no man, your logic is flawed and your reasoning is, well, unreasonable.
6 Mar 2013, 14:25 pm
anyway, it is a sad tragic topic so i am going to leave it there.
have a good day nama.
6 Mar 2013, 14:27 pm
@Heavens Game-159:
We’re talking about SA here. Not the world.
6 Mar 2013, 14:27 pm
the two chicks one black Ms X and one white Ms P are right on the money..
all the squealing and vilifying complaining about which racial group have the highest problem in respect of such cases is nothing new its as easy to determine as watching who frequents rugby matches in this country in terms of demographics.
6 Mar 2013, 14:29 pm
@skopdiekan-168: really?
so rugby leads to spousal murder?
wtf are you on about?
6 Mar 2013, 14:34 pm
@Hurricane-80:
i am not saying either of the sort.
i think this is referred to as ‘leading the witness’.in a court of law.?..
6 Mar 2013, 14:38 pm
According to Census 2011 the following number for white males:
2,231, 682
It’s a pity they did not break it down for us:
* English
* Afrikaans
* Greek
* Portuguese
* Italian
* Jewish
* Other
By providing one figure it conveys the idea that it is a homogeneous group, far from it.
I reckon the above group owns about 80% (if not more) and more the country’s wealth. I’m sure that statement would fill pagan hearts with some warmth.
I also suspect that this figures is going up instead of coming down, that’s just my gut feel…
6 Mar 2013, 14:39 pm
Ooo jinne here’s a whole new can of whoopass being opened now
6 Mar 2013, 14:42 pm
Wouldnt worry too much about Nama1 guys.
He is a deluded moron who is quite happy coming here and claims making false acusations without having the relevant and recent proof to back it up.
6 Mar 2013, 14:44 pm
@Tacitus-160:
” the point that you unilaterally declared the murder of an entire family to be the narrow area of focus here,…”
ONE focus area Tac. Not the only one. I never suggested nor try to suggest that that should be the only area of focus.
I agree with your point re the larger debate.
@The Rangerman-164:
Did I do the research? No.
I’m merely letting you know about some of the findings that an independent research body have found. Don’t blame me for their findings.
Why don’t you ask the researchers about their sample?
Did you know that there is a book written about family murders amongst Afrikaner people? Yes a book just dedicated to this phenomena amongst one section of our population. Why do you think that is?
Afrikaner-gesinsmoord: ‘n ekologie van idees – Sonja Hilda Snyman
@The Rangerman-163:
Well, if Afrikaners are responsible for around 60% of family murders taking place in SA, as some stats are trying to suggest, that would constitute “the most. …No?
6 Mar 2013, 14:45 pm
@Sheriff-171: fark so the other whities been holding out on me?
6 Mar 2013, 14:47 pm
@John Galt-173:
Ahhh…there it is again. The name calling.
Most prevalent among Shark supporters.
Unfortunately I have no stats to back up my claim. It is just a feeling I have.
6 Mar 2013, 14:51 pm
@nama1-176:
Its just a feeling you have?!
Fk me, its getting worse.
Suck it up, you are the only one I disrespect on this site. For good reason.
6 Mar 2013, 14:54 pm
@nama1-174: see now you are being disegenous or actually downright dishonest.
“Well, if Afrikaners are responsible for around 60% of family murders taking place in SA, as some stats are trying to suggest, that would constitute “the most. …No?”
which stats suggest this?
a few studies you found online with extremely limited sample sizes?
no man, you need to up your game.
6 Mar 2013, 14:58 pm
@nama1-176: seriously, 60%?
this because of a study with 11 cases?
i cant stop laughing even though its a serious topic.
so did my exaple of the shangaan tracker bring it down to 58%? 55%?
no nama, you show your hatred even if you dont know it. its like some black people claim they have highly tuned “racist-o-meters” but seeing your agenda doesnt require a highly tuned meter at all
cue: denial
6 Mar 2013, 14:59 pm
Ah, same old same old on here I see
6 Mar 2013, 15:00 pm
@Sheriff-171:
Hell, that group of 2.2m men certainly produces a disproportionate number of world class rugby players, that’s for sure. That’s about the same number of males that you’ll find in New Zealand, and we don’t even have Maoris or Islanders to boost our rugby strength.
Truly amazing.
6 Mar 2013, 15:02 pm
@Tacitus-160:
OK, here are some stats wrt the larger debate to put your mind at ease.
NOTE: This stats are from 1999 and the research was done by the MRC (Medical Research Council).
http://www.mrc.ac.za/policybriefs/woman.pdf
6 Mar 2013, 15:02 pm
@Tacitus-181: Looking at it that way in isolation, also great businessmen and cricketers
6 Mar 2013, 15:04 pm
@nama1-182: Gosh, what are all they coloured okes doing to their women!!
6 Mar 2013, 15:10 pm
@nama1-182:
Now please appologize for blatantly lying in your original statement.
Based on your own stats, the true picture now emerges. (A picture which my simple application of common sense arrived it with remarkable accuracy, even in the absence of these stats.)
According to this estimate, 1349 females were killed by intimate partners in 1999. White males were the perpitrators in only 3.9% of these. That’s 52 out of 1349 cases.
Clearly this country’s gender based violence problem would be solved if only those crazy white Afrikaans Calvinist dudes could be removed, hey…
6 Mar 2013, 15:14 pm
@John Galt-177:
Why? Because I outed you as a bigot?
Don’t make me laugh. I don’t want your respect.
6 Mar 2013, 15:19 pm
@nama1-188: I was wandering why John Galt has such an obsession with you.
@Tacitus-187: Did the males commit suicide after murdering their spouses and children?
6 Mar 2013, 15:20 pm
@John1976-189:
Why is that relevant?
From the stats, it would appear that only 3.8% did, across the racial spectrum. But it’s not very clear.
6 Mar 2013, 15:21 pm
@Tacitus-187: BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
fu k ken OVAAAAAAAAAAA!
sorry nama, nice try but you can go join lulu in the “reflection corner”
6 Mar 2013, 15:23 pm
now 3.9% of cases would probably put white afrikaner males below the average surely?
6 Mar 2013, 15:23 pm
@Tacitus-190: I thought you were initially discussing family murders i.e. whole family killed through the deliberate actions of the wife or husband
6 Mar 2013, 15:26 pm
@The Rangerman-192:
That’s 3.9% for all white males. Who make up 10.9% of the population. So if you are married to a white guy, then according to these stats, you are 3 times LESS likely to be the victim of intimate femicide than the average female in the population.
6 Mar 2013, 15:27 pm
@John1976-193:
We were addressing Lulu’s accusations, and whether they were based in fact or not.
6 Mar 2013, 15:31 pm
{{{ DA accused of Nazism in run-up to poll
Battle lines have been drawn before a by-election in Stellenbosch, with the local civic association accusing the DA and the municipality of “Nazism” and corruption. ….
Battle lines have been drawn before a by-election in Stellenbosch, with the local civic association accusing the DA and the municipality of “Nazism” and corruption.
On Tuesday, the civic association accused the DA of corruption at the municipality in an advertising campaign for its election.
The association’s poster – with the sub-heading “Klink dit bekend” (Does this sound familiar) and a drawing of Nazi leader Adolf Hitler – depicts DA councillors engaged in a teleconference.
In a conversation with Premier Helen Zille, a councillor says the municipality could not cancel contracts with two residents who were the DA’s biggest donors. The poster also carries accusations of corruption and defaulting on tax by the municipality.
The municipality would not comment on the allegations, saying it was taking the campaign “in the spirit of a by-election”. Reid claimed that thousands in rates for friends and relatives of DA councillors were written off without a single payment made.
He said the association’s councillors who serve on the DA-run municipality’s council are gagged from raising questions about those issues. It holds three of 43 seats on the council.
“Those are our concerns. Nazism is still very much alive in Stellenbosch. There is a lot of corruption among DA councillors and their friends.
“All those things are true and can be proven without reasonable doubt. We want to see how many honest (residents) we have in this ward. We want to see how they feel about these things,” Reid said. }}}
Perception,perception, perception among the genuine people is a real slow poison for the DA.
And the DA and the maggot-weight Ramphele’s ‘A’ Gang want changes to the electoral system(to suit their desires)?
Be careful, be very careful for the ANC can easily get back the W.Cape by simply incorporating the E.Cape into the existing W.Cape creating a big again Cape Province. Such ideas are seriously being considered.
Now chew on that dummies, yes you who voted for the DA and at this time opportunistically whip it wrt who funds it(Gupta plus many more).
The sun shines bright on my old, very Capey home.
6 Mar 2013, 15:35 pm
@Tacitus-187:
Oh dear.
Back to the drawing board for Namski.
6 Mar 2013, 15:36 pm
@nama1-188:
Haha, oh my deary me.
Now you have ‘outed’ me.
Just like you have ‘outed’ the afrikaner population in SA as being responsible for most family murders in SA. Hehe.
What a plank.
6 Mar 2013, 15:44 pm
@nama1-188:
Oh and as per Tacs post 187…Sheet just got real for you.
You have now officially been outed as a liar.
Good day sir.
6 Mar 2013, 15:49 pm
@Tacitus-187:
Ai Tac. Wat is dit wat jy nie verstaan nie? Onthou, ek het jou die link gegee vir daai statistiek.
“Spousel murder” en “gesinsmoord” is twee verskillende goed, hoewel albei die moord van ‘n geliefde beteken. Ek het van die begin af oor die een gesels. Ek het vroeer ‘n rede verskaf waarom ek dit doen.
“Gesinsmoord” loop in die meeste gevalle uit op die selfmoord van die persoon nadat hy die ander lede van sy gesin uitgewis het. Partykeer slaag so ‘n persoon nie daarin nie en partykeer begewe sy moed hom.
“Spousel murder” is waar die een party sy/haar intieme maat vermoor sonder enige gedagte om hom-/haarself ook dood te maak.
So, die stats wat ek gebruik het was rondom “gesinsmoord” en was korrek aangehaal uit die bronne op die web.
Jy het nou stats om vir Lulu aan te vat as jy so voel. Moet net nie vergeet wie jou in die rigting van die stats gestuur het nie.
Jislaaikit!!!
@John1976-189:
Ek het hom nou maar in Afrikaans probeer verduidelik. Miskien help dit.
6 Mar 2013, 15:54 pm
@John1976-189:
That is a different issue.
The article and the subsequent dfiscussion is based on femicide.
Nama’s article deals with a subset of those statistics if you like.
Perhaps you should read from the beginning?
6 Mar 2013, 15:56 pm
@The Rangerman-191: @gunther-197:
What’s up?
Nothing about the fact that those stats are from 1999?
Come now, let’s hear it for Tac using old, old stats. No?
It suits the purpose so why should you worry about the fact that it is nearly 15 years old.
You feckers are so funny, it isn’t even funny.
6 Mar 2013, 15:58 pm
@nama1-202: FFS, you are not only a liar but also dumb.
It is not only about the interpretation, but the fact that the sample is not representative.
6 Mar 2013, 15:58 pm
@Tacitus-195: I thought that you were discussing theis statement by Nama:
98.nama1:
6 Mar 2013, 12:12 pm @gunther-70:
Not the only ones but for some reason they are responsible for the most family murders taking place in SA.
Note, I said MOST. They are not the only ones who take their family with them to the other side if they reach that point of no return. However, it is more prevalent amongst that community than any other in the country.
6 Mar 2013, 16:01 pm
@John1976-204: Prior to that you were discussing an article on thoughtleader posted here by Transformation with regards to OP and Lulu’s comments. I am missing something?
6 Mar 2013, 16:11 pm
@Finfan-203:
Ok Finfan. Before you pop a vein, go back on the thread and read every single post of mine and then come back and tell me where I lied.
6 Mar 2013, 16:22 pm
At the time of the original research project there was no clear definition of family murder. It was therefore decided to formulate an operational definition of what exactly was going to be investigated under the phenomenon of “family murder”. The following definition was used, which will also be used for the purpose of this article, namely: “Family murder is the deliberate extermination of the existing system by a member of the family or the intention to exterminate the system
…”
(Olivier, Haasbroek, Beyers, De Jongh van Arkel, Marchetti, Roos, Schurink, Schurink & Visser, 1991:44).
Definitions for murder on females:
Intimate Femicide: The killing of a female by an intimate partner i.e. her current or ex-husband, or boyfriend, same *** partner or a rejected would-be lover).
Non-intimate Femicide: The killing of a woman by someone other than an intimate partner.
Female Homocide: Intimate and non-intimate femicide.
Maybe that’s a good start as not to confuse the topics.
6 Mar 2013, 16:23 pm
@nama1-202:
well they’re eleven years newer than your original stats and they cover the wider based phenomenon rather than you rather more narrow area of concern. They also tell a very different story don’t they?
But I guess it suited your argument no?
@John1976-205:
Yes you are.
See above.
6 Mar 2013, 16:30 pm
@nama1-206: I read every single post (en my Afrikaans is net so goed indien nie beter as joune nie) and I still believe you twisted the facts to suit you.
It is quite clear that you are dumb, I’m sure that even you agree with that.
6 Mar 2013, 16:34 pm
@nama1-207:
So, it is obvious that Tac & kie (sounds like a TV program) were talking about one thing (Intimate Femicide) while I was talking about another (family murder).
Who’s to blame?
6 Mar 2013, 16:35 pm
@nama1-207:
The article that sparked this debate deals with femicide as a whole.
no mention of family muders.
you inserted that little gem yourself.
But nobody is to blame.
Or rather everybody is to blame.
6 Mar 2013, 16:37 pm
blame me….
or plod…..
but fark me can someone talk some rugby?
6 Mar 2013, 16:37 pm
‘It is difficult to establish accurate figures reflecting the incidence of murders within the family , due to the fact that there are no reliable statistics. At present, homicides that occur within the family, are included with homicide in general and the relationship of the perpetrator to the victim is not documented.”
Centre for the Study of Violence and Reconciliation
Nama, but don’t t let the truth bother you
6 Mar 2013, 16:38 pm
@gunther-208:
Boy, why would I give the link to Tac if I knew it tells a different story wrt female homicide?
Come on now.
I guess 15 year old stats is OK then. As long as it serves the purpose.
Oh well…
@Finfan-209:
Jy’t nog steeds nie vir me gese waar ek gelieg het nie.
6 Mar 2013, 16:39 pm
@grant10-212: Have you watched how boring the Stormers rugby currently is? It makes UK Premiership seem fast paced
6 Mar 2013, 16:39 pm
@nama1-210: You still made assumptions and other sweeping statements based on a sample that is not representative of white male Afrikaners.
I guess that is irrelevant, especially if you want to defend Lulu…
6 Mar 2013, 16:42 pm
On topic, Walsh intended to push the player no doubt. He did apologize though, possibly following some verbals from Smith?
6 Mar 2013, 16:44 pm
He doesn’t deserve to be sacked though, maybe stood down for a couple of weeks.
6 Mar 2013, 16:45 pm
@JL1-215: yes….I am not going this Saturday….simply given up…..last year was a terrible burden….this last 2 weeks I have seen nothing to dispel my fears that we are a defensive boring team so scared of losing we have lost the plot completely.
Rather stay home and save myself the frustration. Actaully looking far more forward to the Sharks…Kings game.
6 Mar 2013, 16:48 pm
@grant10-219: Province snapped out of the defensive mindset during the Currie Cup. There is no reason why this won’t happen again with the Stormers. Early days.
Good idea to watch a Sharks game
6 Mar 2013, 16:49 pm
@grant10-219: JDV is the problem…he needs to go I am afraid to say and then AC and RF
Kings seem well drilled by a Kiwi coach, my opinion is still reserved ito of the whole set up. Katrikillis seem to get that backline running
6 Mar 2013, 16:50 pm
@Finfan-220: Maybe the Sharks wont choke against the Kings? or is it too early in the season for that
6 Mar 2013, 16:52 pm
@gunther-211:
Yes, I did and I said why.
@JL1-213:
Good to see you back.
Good that you bring that up. It’s true that there are not accurate or more recent figures reflecting the incidence of murders within the family because they are lumped with general murder. However, the stats out there, as limited as it is, tells a certain story.
You can’t deny that.
In any case, some people want to talk rugby so let’s do that.
6 Mar 2013, 16:52 pm
@Dawn-152: 100% correct Dawn
6 Mar 2013, 16:53 pm
@JL1-222: Unlikely. Choking normally only happens at the semifinal stage, especially when you play at home. If my memory serves me right, it happened to another coastal team last year?
6 Mar 2013, 16:54 pm
@nama1-214:
They tell quite an interesting story though?
Quite different to your first observation which apparently is all just a misunderstanding on your part.
6 Mar 2013, 16:55 pm
@Finfan-216:
Sighhhh…
6 Mar 2013, 16:55 pm
@JL1-221: Also believe AC has had his time….we devoid of any freshness ….that management team have not been able to get us to take it to the highest level…..no balance and with that backline wthere cannot be any excuses….simply kak game plan …..JDV is going to be the Plod of the Stormers….already is.
6 Mar 2013, 16:56 pm
@gunther-226: Dumb people tend to misunderstand things. Maybe we should forgive him?
6 Mar 2013, 16:57 pm
@nama1-227: At last, a semi-intelligent post!
6 Mar 2013, 16:59 pm
@Finfan-229:
I don’t nama is dumb at all.
Au contraire he seems very clever.
6 Mar 2013, 16:59 pm
@Finfan-225: Unlike playing in 6 finals and a gazillion semi finals and still not getting the big trophy… that is choking
But they seem to look not to bad this year, maybe need some depth at scrum half, lock and prop
@nama1-223: It still does not seem correct, because statistically all Olympic athlete shoot would be intruders
6 Mar 2013, 17:00 pm
Op ‘n heel ander noot.
Ienkie pienkie ponkie
Suid Afrika eet nou donkie
Hiekierie diekierie dok
ons maalvleis is nou bok
Taragie taragoe
ons biltong is kangaroe
Kul jou hier en kul jou daa
ons steak is nou sebra
Viskoekies in die Baai
bestaan meestal nou uit haai
daai hoender wat so dril
is dikwels krokkodil
Die salami aan die haak
is dalk ‘n Taiwanese brak
en die sagte, pienk polonie
is dalk net Shetland ponie
maar dis als die moeite werd
die arme Britte kry net perd.
6 Mar 2013, 17:01 pm
@grant10-228: Very one dimensional. Province need to either change the people or change the people. A kiwi coach will do wonders with the team
6 Mar 2013, 17:03 pm
@JL1-234: John Mitchell or Pat Lam maybe?
6 Mar 2013, 17:04 pm
@gunther-226:
Boy, I know these things. I work with those stats more than you’ll ever know.
As I said, let’s leave it for now. The people want to talk rugby. Maybe you should too or are you too scared of the massacre laying ahead for your team that you’d rather not?
6 Mar 2013, 17:06 pm
@JL1-234: Agreed…..no excuses for the boring 1 dimensional cowardly rubish we have been dishing up since 2012…..skop jag and tackle…..what a crock of s hit man
6 Mar 2013, 17:07 pm
@grant10-228:
Agree on AC.
He has reached his ceiling I think. Time for someone to come in with fresh ideas. I’d like to see WP appointing different coach from AC so that we can see what he can do.
6 Mar 2013, 17:09 pm
@grant10-228: Smittie’s side is sitting top of the AP
6 Mar 2013, 17:10 pm
Cape Town – The welcome presence of senior hooker Tiaan Liebenberg among the Stormers reserves for Saturday’s Super Rugby clash with the Chiefs at Newlands here may give the home team a more meaningful opportunity to inject a speed merchant to their loose trio as the key game develops.
While naming an unchanged starting line-up for the meeting with the defending champions, the restoration of Liebenberg to the match-day 22 might well give coach Allister Coetzee the option of shifting versatile Deon Fourie from No 2 responsibilities to open-side flank either at or not too long after the halftime break.
Fourie brings the sort of dynamism and stealth to loose-forward play that Keegan Daniel does to the Sharks – though the latter is currently injured – even if his off-loading skills may not be in quite the same league as the diminutive Springbok’s.
The Sharks have traditionally valued the balance someone like Daniel brings to their loosies, as he can be a hugely effective tearaway and general attacking opportunist, and to all intents and purposes becomes an extra backline player due to his mobility, stepping and speed off the mark.
It may be one reason for explaining why the Sharks, who fought their way through to last year’s Hamilton final against Saturday’s Newlands visitors, appear to score tries more comfortably these days than most of their main rivals in the South African conference.
If the Stormers feel they need more brawn in their tight five – particularly at the scrums, where they are under scrutiny – some time during combat with the Chiefs, Liebenberg should be good value for at least half an hour’s play after his lengthy layoff through a back injury.
At the same time, Fourie would then become an attractive possibility for a continued on-field role among the loose forwards.
Another course of action, whether it involves making a change at hooker or not, could be to introduce the nippy and creative Nizaam Carr to the fray a bit earlier than has occurred in the first two matches of the season, where the Stormers have come off second best on the scoreboard each time.
Certainly if they happen to find themselves chasing the game against the Chiefs, Carr or Fourie adding some gusto to the loose trio makes sense; it may also aid the quest of the Stormers’ backline players to find some continuity and vitality and get over the advantage line.
Asked by Sport24 at Wednesday’s media briefing whether he was confident Liebenberg would have the stamina to go at least 40 minutes if necessary, Coetzee said: “Yes, definitely … I wouldn’t have had him on the bench if not.
“What happens if Deon gets injured in the first 20? I’m definitely confident Tiaan could complete the game from there.”
The incumbent Stormers loose trio features Duane Vermeulen at No 8, Siya Kolisi at open-side and Rynhardt Elstadt, who is also well acquainted with lock, on the blindside flank.
They lack nothing collectively in robustness and commitment at close quarters, but there is no hot-stepper or true tearaway among them.
Is that a problem? The Stormers coach doesn’t think so, even if some observers may slightly differ.
“Look, you are spot-on when you speak about physicality, and that is a question that is always asked of you by opposing teams.
“So you don’t respond by having quick guys … you must fight fire with fire. We’ve got good balance in the loosies; don’t forget that Deon plays his part on the ground from the hooker position as well.
“Siya, Rynhardt and Duane are busy growing again as a combination; finding each other.”
Defending his broader continuity in selection, despite the nought-from-two situation, Coetzee said: “For us it’s important to keep backing the players who made mistakes and have learnt from that … I said after the last game (against the Sharks) that it was a big improvement.
“So I don’t see any reason at this point (to change) if you don’t necessarily have players to improve the situation.”
Asked whether it was melodramatic to talk of the Stormers being at a “crossroads”, he replied: “No that’s not melodramatic. It’s reality for us.
“But we’re excited to be at Newlands, where we will have our passionate support behind us and I’m sure that will give us an extra push against the champions, who can tear any opponent apart on attack – we’re in for a big game.
“We’ve prepared well.”
6 Mar 2013, 17:11 pm
@Big Hit-239: Yes…Schalk rits has been outstanding.
6 Mar 2013, 17:11 pm
@JL1-234:
Bring Slaptjips back home and make him head coach of WP before he takes over the Stormers team. He’s been serving his apprenticeship for a long time now and will never become head coach at the Bulls because they believe their coach must be a kenner in forward play.
Watch how VM surpasses him and become Bulls head coach within the next two years. Ludeke’s days are numbered. The moment the Bulls have a kak season, he is gone.
6 Mar 2013, 17:11 pm
BRITS
6 Mar 2013, 17:13 pm
@grant10-243:
how are you anyway g10, hope you’re keeping well
6 Mar 2013, 17:16 pm
@nama1-233:
En jou polony is nou Vonkie Doël
6 Mar 2013, 17:16 pm
@grant10-240: i am no kenner..but ……
D Fourie at 6
Carr at 7
Vermeulen at 8
Elstaht at 4
Liebenberg or that Lion at 2
bobs your aunt!
Kolisi is tentative at the moment ….struggling with that post op I reckon…..we lacking pace to the breakdown…..Carr and Fourie will sort that….allow us to go wider sooner….Where is Willie….he is better at explaining this technical stuff
6 Mar 2013, 17:17 pm
@Big Hit-244: I am good….just so damn busy ….markets picked up last 8 months or so….so cant complain….how are you Kiwi slayer?
6 Mar 2013, 17:21 pm
@JL1-234:
name a south african side that a kiwi coach wouldn’t do wonders with.
@nama1-233:
6 Mar 2013, 17:22 pm
@nama1-238: Agree Nama…..I know long term contracts have been renewed though, so not likely to happen.
6 Mar 2013, 17:26 pm
@gunther-248: The Bools
6 Mar 2013, 17:26 pm
@Finfan-235: Pat Lam messed up at the Blues, Mitchell maybe?
@gunther-248: Springs Tegnies, se 5e span
6 Mar 2013, 17:28 pm
@grant10-247: Not too bad man. Don’t think you should get too down on your Stormers, whilst they have a good pack their forwards lack dynamism in the carry which doesn’t give the backline much in the way of quick ball to attack from. Jantjes is an attacking 10 but can only work with he’s provided. Truth be told, Willem De Waal is a better fit for their style.
6 Mar 2013, 17:29 pm
@nama1-242: Yes VM will surely be the darling lost sone of Loftus, the chosen one and Slaptjips will be without a contract…but is Slaptjips really headcoach material?
6 Mar 2013, 17:29 pm
@Big Hit-252:
Ouch.
A knife to the Stormer heart.
6 Mar 2013, 17:39 pm
Eng 35
Afr 40
Port 6
Greek 6
Italiano 6
Jew 4
Other 3
Total 100
6 Mar 2013, 17:40 pm
Eng 35
Afr 40
Port 6
Greek 6
Italiano 6
Jew 4
Other 3
Total 100
Guys – please adjust these figures to be more closer to reality
6 Mar 2013, 17:45 pm
@Big Hit-252: Willem Wikkelspies ??? Fark me B H ……no man……
6 Mar 2013, 17:47 pm
@Sharks_are_gonna_get_you-250:
He will need to speak Afrikaans, read Huisgenoot, listen to Kort Derm and have Steve’s Bloubul lied as ringtone
Hard for a Kiwi to qualify
Mitchell thought team shower sessions and washing each others backs would suffice for teambuilding at the Lions, but he was sadly mistaken
6 Mar 2013, 17:50 pm
Mallet…..
For Stormers…..
make my farken day !
6 Mar 2013, 17:52 pm
@Sheriff-256:
More like:
Afrikaner – 61
Anglo-African – 34
Jewish – 2
Portuguese – 2
Greek – 1
6 Mar 2013, 18:02 pm
I can’t abide Steve Walsh but that looked like a mistake to me. He turned and ran and the player was there. Natural to put your hands up like that – anyone would do it. There was no aggression in it.
6 Mar 2013, 18:03 pm
@grant10-259: Now you guys are calling for a new coach again ? After the Currie Cup final, Alistair Coetzee was acclaimed by Stormers supporters far and wide to be the absolute best coach in South Africa.
What is it to be ?
6 Mar 2013, 18:05 pm
@grant10-257: Geez Gwanty…I cant believe it only took you 4 days this time to recover from the Stormers losing for the 8th time in the last 11 games against the Sharks. After the semi-final last year, you disappeared for a couple of months. Did you need therapy ?
6 Mar 2013, 18:24 pm
@WP-Forever-260:
So what you’re saying is that there are a lot more Afrikaners than my perception, interesting …
Your estimate only differs by 1 for sout en asyn
And you reduced the Medit peoples considerable
Your gut feel on my 80% estimate?
6 Mar 2013, 18:42 pm
@Tacitus-183:
Yes they produce big athletes but they are not smart rugby players.
Thus to my mind their strength is also their weakness; rugby is a game where skills are vital
Mindset of too many of these players is that they are in Jan Wilkens’ arena; coach has the same mindset and that is why our rugby will stagnate with him there
6 Mar 2013, 19:38 pm
@WP-Forever-260: mhlekazi, khawundichazele bendicingaka ukuba kunzima ukufumana impepha ezigunyazisa ukuba mompu, yenzeka njani into yokuba kusapho olunye abantu abathandathu babenempepha zokuphatha imipu engamashumi amahlanu anesithandathu?
kwenziwantoni ngezixhobo ezingaka?
6 Mar 2013, 20:09 pm
Botha quits after positive test
Wed, 06 Mar 2013 16:27
PrevNextThe name of the substance is unknown
Former Baby Bok and University of Pretoria captain Zane Botha has quit rugby after testing positive for a banned substance.
This website can reveal, exclusively, that Botha is the Tukkie who has had social media network Twitter abuzz with rumours of a player that tested positive.
However, in contrast to the Twitter-based hype, Botha has quit rugby and has not been involved with the club at all this year.
This website can reveal that Botha had himself tested in January and when the result returned positive, he informed officials that he was quitting the game.
He has not featured in any of their games this year and is not currently a member of the club.
The name of the substance is unknown and it is not clear at this stage if Botha will ever return to the game.
Botha, who captained Tuks to their first Varsity Cup title last year, was born in Bloemfontein and schooled at Grey College.
He moved to the Blue Bulls after school and has represented the Bulls at age-group level and in the Vodacom Cup.
He represented South Africa Under-20 at the 2009 IRB World Junior Championship.
6 Mar 2013, 20:17 pm
@grant10-267: test ALL those bulls kids!!
6 Mar 2013, 21:06 pm
RT @sportproducer Ref Steve Walsh still winning friends & influencing people. And he’s headed our way
http://t.co/B6jQMAQo6B #rterugby
6 Mar 2013, 22:19 pm
@Transformation-268:
And test their fans as well.
6 Mar 2013, 23:39 pm
@Hurricane-269: For extra chromosomes.
6 Mar 2013, 23:58 pm
According to all saffas all refs who ref games that end in their teams demise should be sacked. Its just they have got used to their own hometown refs incompetence to be unbiased that they see this as gold standard.
No ref should just be fired because they reffed a saffa team which lost.
KEO – are you trying to get this article up and running. Walsh and Smmith have come out and said this was an accident.
7 Mar 2013, 00:46 am
@wallabie.-271:
Yep nothing in it really.
Hurricanes need to man up and start holding the ball really.
Welsh did some weird calls but thats rugby. We will never get a perfectly refed game….. one team will say the ref was good and the other will say he was poor. Actually it is normally the fans and not the teams but if he got around 90% of his calls correct, like his boss suggested,then that is good enough i think.
7 Mar 2013, 00:46 am
@stormer in a teacup-270:
7 Mar 2013, 00:59 am
standard fare Wallabie
it feeds the “truthers” on this blog and maintains the conspiracy angle
you just don’t beat saffa sides
it’s either the ref, travel disadvantage, IRB conspiracy etc etc
7 Mar 2013, 08:33 am
Walshy may be buying his booze in Aussie now but this just adds to the perception that a kiwi can get away with anything on a rugby field.
Can any of the kiwis here tell us whether Hamish Rutherford is Ken’s son?
7 Mar 2013, 08:53 am
@gunther-276:
Yep, he is Ken’s son.
Some wag tweeted on cricinfo that Ken took 4 tests to score 12 runs, Hamish took 12 balls.
7 Mar 2013, 08:56 am
@gunther-276:
I like the qualifier you have used”perception”
7 Mar 2013, 09:04 am
Steve Walsh player 23 for the Bulls in that 2007 final. There’s gotta be better refs out there.
7 Mar 2013, 09:23 am
@Brads-277:
He was a great captain Kenny.
Wonderful sense of humour.
7 Mar 2013, 09:38 am
@gunther-280:
I don’t really agree he was a great captain, but he was a down to earth, man in the street type, a complete contrast to Martin Crowe who he never got on with.
7 Mar 2013, 09:53 am
@Brads-281:
Amazing how man father son combos there are in kiwi cricket.
You don’t have any little Hadllees running around there do you?
7 Mar 2013, 09:53 am
@wp_boytjie-279:
Give it a break.
Unless you can prove otherwise, all ref mistakes should be treated as mistakes, some may even be the result of ineptitude.
These guys make decisions on what they see in front of them, not what is on television from umpteen different angles. Additionally a small number of ref’s just freeze and lose the plot and stop making decisions until something blatant happens in front of them.
These never ending accusations that every refs mistake is proof of bias or evidence of corruption is ridiculous.
7 Mar 2013, 10:02 am
@gunther-282:
Possibly, but not from Richard’s loins as far as I know.
His wife Karen left him with no kids after he retired from cricket at age 40 to live with her **** girlfriend.
Richard is a anal sort of guy (not in the sexual connotation) so I suspect he never found the time to start a family
7 Mar 2013, 10:07 am
@Brads-283: welcome to the site, you’ll find this is defense number one when a Saffa side lose..
enjoy your time here
7 Mar 2013, 10:10 am
Haha, close the laager, exorcise poltergeist NAMA, and all is right with the world.. The birds are singing, white might is restored to its impeccable perch. No matter how many family murders by whites, stats show it is not as bad as those black basterterds… mmmm breath the deep fresh air of bullying and brainwashing the truth itself. Collective consciousness bliss, the sobering thought vanquished into obscurity by intellectual obfuscation.
And yet, if all races were removed except whiteness, what would the picture of family murder be? Would you be satisfied that patriarchal dominance is a real problem in Afrikaner culture especially?
Dont mistake a strong willed auntie or ma as being proof against the premise (as celebrated lefty author Max Du Preez does, for e.g.). Oh no, it is in the face of such entrenchment that men crumble and, not being able to hold up the delusional manly mantle, crack, and as a last act of desperate assertion pull the trigger on infant and wife.
7 Mar 2013, 10:14 am
@the curse-285:
Don’t worry about explaining the ropes to me, I have been here for a few years – off and on.
But thanks for the welcome, much appreciated.
7 Mar 2013, 10:29 am
@rugby911-286: chill dude. Nama is our favorite bushman
7 Mar 2013, 11:42 am
I know Brads
I was being facetious.
7 Mar 2013, 12:26 pm
@wallabie.-272: Notice how Sir Graeme Henry has also said via Twitter what a rubbish ref Walsh is
7 Mar 2013, 13:45 pm
@JL1-290: Sir Graeme Henry.
What a joke.
7 Mar 2013, 15:01 pm
@willievz-291: Williie, is nogal snaaks, maar jy weet mos wat ‘n Sir is, of hoe?
7 Mar 2013, 15:03 pm
@JL1-292: Nee, vertel maar?
8 Mar 2013, 12:30 pm
Strangley enough Walsh is by far away their (Kiwis) best ref; which is not saying much, I grant you. In truth I think he became really good when he came back – but like most of them he’s in Paddy’s pocket – and, if you’r not, you won’t get the big matches and your reffing career will tank. Everybody knows that.
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